F*** people up who don't comply? Especially kids.
The words of Bernie Mac in kings of comedy just ring true to me.
The words of Bernie Mac in kings of comedy just ring true to me.
Am I the only one who thinks cops should...
- Thread starter HighStickHarry
- Start date
I'm with you. That girl would have sat there all day unless she was removed. Whaaaaaaaaa! It was excessive! F that. Move your ass or get whatcha got comin. No respect for authority.
If you cant figure out how to get a small teenage girl sitting in a chair out of a classroom without slinging her around everywhere, you probably shouldn't be an authority figure.
So what would you have done? It took three people to get to the point of what we saw on the video.
I just get irritated in these stories because not one time has the media questioned why the student wouldn't comply with what she had been asked to do by the teacher and other authority figures before it even got to that point. I'm sure that is not the way the officer wanted it to go but it's really not easy to get a person out of a desk like that if they don't want to get out. It looks bad but what else was he supposed to do? It's like the guy selling cigarettes in New York that died....everyone kept saying they shouldn't have used that much force for an offense so minor but there are only two options for an officer if the person won't comply, do nothing or force them to comply. If the choice is do nothing then what is the point of having police officers. It's time the spotlight was focused on the offenders and not the officers that are simply doing what they've been hired to do.
All of this negative attention and finger pointing at cops is starting to come home to roost in my opinion. Kids that are a POS because their parents are a POS are encouraged to do this crap by the way the media and society looks at this incident. Now this girl is some kind of civil rights hero and the cop is a racist jerk. How are police officers supposed to have the respect of the community to do their job when this is how they are treated? I've run into plenty of jerk cops in my life and there are plenty of incidents when the cops deserve to fry, but these days they NEVER get the benefit of the doubt.
All of this negative attention and finger pointing at cops is starting to come home to roost in my opinion. Kids that are a POS because their parents are a POS are encouraged to do this crap by the way the media and society looks at this incident. Now this girl is some kind of civil rights hero and the cop is a racist jerk. How are police officers supposed to have the respect of the community to do their job when this is how they are treated? I've run into plenty of jerk cops in my life and there are plenty of incidents when the cops deserve to fry, but these days they NEVER get the benefit of the doubt.
Agree. And what about the other kids in the room trying to learn. Don't they have a right to learn in an environment free from dipshits like this girl who won't do what they're told, and cause a scene like this? I guess the cop could have just grabber her ear and twisted it, like they did when I was in school, and he probably would have been punched in the face. Then what?
Well going for a choke hold right off the bat in a non violent situation seems like a pretty bad way to start it.
I'm obviously not trained in these matters but I would have just grabbed the desk, drug it and her out backwards. (as I've seen my teachers do back when I was a kid) If she escalates it into a physical altercation then step up your response.
Agree with much of what you say, but there's a professional middle ground between slinging her chair to the ground like an ignorant troll, and politely begging her to comply like a p&^%y.. That over the top type of police behavior, after decades of being trained and conditioned that this is acceptable cop procedure, is doing them no favors.
The obvious answer would have been to either pull the chair into the hallway and deal with her out there or pry her wrists off the chair and wrestle her out of it in a restrained but professional manner. His "I'm the cop and almost a god who shall not be defied" routine is a lot like the moron in McKinney who body-slammed the girl this summer. Some of those guys just don't understand a middle ground. The good ones who do don't make the news.
Let's say he does that. She gets violent with him and he reacts the way he did in the video. You think the narrative from the media would change about this guy? White cop, black girl, over the top reaction. Lose lose situation for this guy.
So you admit it was an over the top reaction? That's the whole point here isn't it?
So, we're going to go with the two wrongs make a right theory?
Look, I have no problem with her being arrested and removed from the classroom for her actions. Because at that point she was breaking the law.
But the Police Officer involved, also BROKE THE LAW when he used excessive force to remove her.
Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989). Is the three part test used to measure the lawfulness of a particular use of force by LE. First, what was the severity of the crime that the officer believed the suspect to have committed or be committing? Second, did the suspect present an immediate threat to the safety of officers or the public? Third, was the suspect actively resisting arrest or attempting to escape?
1. The girl wasn't exactly running away from a bank robbery shooting at pursuing officers. While a defiant and bitc*y teenager, at best she was violating a school rule and at worst a very low ranking misdemeanor.
2. If this hulking cop thought she presented a physical threat to him, as she surely wasn't presenting a physical threat to any of the students, teachers, etc., then perhaps he should have his head examined. She would fit in one of the lowest categories of "threat" to a man his size.
3. She was resisting arrest, but that resistance consisted almost entirely of keeping her butt planted in that chair. She wasn't a threat to flee, and her resistance was not something that could not have been overcome by far less physical actions than flipping her chair upside down and violently yanking her into a prone condition.
So either be consistent when you want to see the law applied because it applies to everyone. Was she out of line? Yes.
Is he held to a higher standard by the law because he is both an "Adult" and a sworn Law Enforcement Officer who has sworn to obey the same laws to which he is authorized to enforce? Also, Yes.
I think a few of you need to just go through a MegaPoke v TPD experience to understand how far out of line that some LE will go if they think they are being "dissed." It wasn't his police training that is on display, it's his pure unadulterated anger that he took out on a 16 yr old girl.
Look, I have no problem with her being arrested and removed from the classroom for her actions. Because at that point she was breaking the law.
But the Police Officer involved, also BROKE THE LAW when he used excessive force to remove her.
Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989). Is the three part test used to measure the lawfulness of a particular use of force by LE. First, what was the severity of the crime that the officer believed the suspect to have committed or be committing? Second, did the suspect present an immediate threat to the safety of officers or the public? Third, was the suspect actively resisting arrest or attempting to escape?
1. The girl wasn't exactly running away from a bank robbery shooting at pursuing officers. While a defiant and bitc*y teenager, at best she was violating a school rule and at worst a very low ranking misdemeanor.
2. If this hulking cop thought she presented a physical threat to him, as she surely wasn't presenting a physical threat to any of the students, teachers, etc., then perhaps he should have his head examined. She would fit in one of the lowest categories of "threat" to a man his size.
3. She was resisting arrest, but that resistance consisted almost entirely of keeping her butt planted in that chair. She wasn't a threat to flee, and her resistance was not something that could not have been overcome by far less physical actions than flipping her chair upside down and violently yanking her into a prone condition.
So either be consistent when you want to see the law applied because it applies to everyone. Was she out of line? Yes.
Is he held to a higher standard by the law because he is both an "Adult" and a sworn Law Enforcement Officer who has sworn to obey the same laws to which he is authorized to enforce? Also, Yes.
I think a few of you need to just go through a MegaPoke v TPD experience to understand how far out of line that some LE will go if they think they are being "dissed." It wasn't his police training that is on display, it's his pure unadulterated anger that he took out on a 16 yr old girl.
No. That's what the narrative would have been.
I'm in agreement with High Sticks original post so you know where I stand on the issue.
Last edited:
IMO, his use of force was excessive.
There is a whole use of force continuum to be considered and he jumped way up the scale from the get go.
There is a whole use of force continuum to be considered and he jumped way up the scale from the get go.
My misunderstanding then.
To answer your question knowing that..
Let's say he does that. She gets violent with him and he reacts the way he did in the video. You think the narrative from the media would change about this guy? White cop, black girl, over the top reaction. Lose lose situation for this guy.
What the media might think in an alternate situation doesn't change the fact that what he did here was over the top. I can't predict what the media might have thought if he would have been more restrained in the beginning then appropriately applied more force once she became violent, but I would personally have agreed with his actions more.
He did not only endanger her here, he endangered those around her.
I think you're being dishonest if you don't think the media would have gone after this guy the same way regardless of what she did to provoke him (short of having a weapon).
I hope you are alone.
Punishment is in no way, ever, a part of a cop's job. Human nature causes it to happen some times, and we probably think the perp deserves it, but still its not his/her role to deal it out.
Sure I did. You said you couldn't predict what the media might have thought. I think the media would have done or thought the exact same thing regardless. All I did was challenge your assertion. No big deal.
Long-duc-Dong - you seem to be preoccupied with the "media" in this situation and what they "May" have done if things were different.
Why don't we stick with the actual observable facts and stop wondering about what happens in an alternative universe.
I don't know about you, but I didn't pay a bit of attention to what the "media" said, I saw enough from the now multiple POV videos to see that this PO went far over the line of what is lawfully afforded him as a licensed peace officer to affect an arrest. (You might note that JD, perhaps the single best informed person on these boards on topics of what is legal in regards to the use of force by LE, also noted that his actions, as observed on the video, were outside the line of legality.)
There is no narrative at play in the video, it's simple observable fact by which one can make a reasonably objective judgment about the use of force. The "test" for reasonableness in the use of force, I have already posted previously in this thread. If you can look at the three factors used to gauge reasonableness and the legality of the amount of force applied you can easily see that his actions were in near complete violation of the standards by which it is to be judged. As JD noted, he was already over the top in the spectrum of force that could be applied in this situation, very early on. That amount of force is to be a "last resort" and as required by the actions of the "perp" and the "crime" they are in the process of committing.
It was unreasonable and almost certainly unlawful in my educated opinion.
Why don't we stick with the actual observable facts and stop wondering about what happens in an alternative universe.
I don't know about you, but I didn't pay a bit of attention to what the "media" said, I saw enough from the now multiple POV videos to see that this PO went far over the line of what is lawfully afforded him as a licensed peace officer to affect an arrest. (You might note that JD, perhaps the single best informed person on these boards on topics of what is legal in regards to the use of force by LE, also noted that his actions, as observed on the video, were outside the line of legality.)
There is no narrative at play in the video, it's simple observable fact by which one can make a reasonably objective judgment about the use of force. The "test" for reasonableness in the use of force, I have already posted previously in this thread. If you can look at the three factors used to gauge reasonableness and the legality of the amount of force applied you can easily see that his actions were in near complete violation of the standards by which it is to be judged. As JD noted, he was already over the top in the spectrum of force that could be applied in this situation, very early on. That amount of force is to be a "last resort" and as required by the actions of the "perp" and the "crime" they are in the process of committing.
It was unreasonable and almost certainly unlawful in my educated opinion.
No I literally have no clue how they would have reacted in some parallel universe where he acted professionally and she got violent.
How they would have reacted in that case has no bearing on what he did though, nor does it excuse it.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and I really don't like cops, but I just can't stand kids like this. Punish the cop if you want, but making this girl out to be anything more than a POS that will never amount to anything is ridiculous.
Hollywood - you seem preoccupied with the fact that I care whether it was lawful or not. I was answering the op question. Somehow this got turned into whether the cop was justified in his actions. I didn't go there. Just answering the question.
What happens if somehow, while you're dragging the desk, the student gets hurt? Desk flips over and bashes her head? Then you and your former job are SOL.
It's a dumb situation, we can all agree, but having alternatives doesn't always mean better alternatives.
No mention of previously dismissed charges against the same PO for over the top violence against a student? How about a currently ongoing civil suit against the same PO for over the top violence against a different student?
The PO lost his head and responded to the situation inappropriately. There is no question about it.
The PO lost his head and responded to the situation inappropriately. There is no question about it.
Wait... so its better to FLIP her and the chair over on purpose, and then THROW her, than some scenario where her and the chair might ACCIDENTALLY get flipped over?
If you do something worse than that to a 16 year old girl, your ass should be in jail.
It is an alternative situation, but can have the same result. Either way, the child is somehow the victim.
Insubordination is unacceptable on any levels, no complaints on using force.
squeak,
I don't think many view her as anything other than a belligerent teen who deserved to be removed from the classroom and perhaps even arrested/taken into custody and turned over to the court system or her parents. I really haven't seen anyone defend her actions, only defending her right not to be viciously manhandled to that degree in response.
But there's a massive difference between the accountability of a teenager and that of an adult, who is also a sworn peace officer. Thus, it shouldn't be surprising that he's going to come under far more scrutiny and criticism than she is.
I don't think many view her as anything other than a belligerent teen who deserved to be removed from the classroom and perhaps even arrested/taken into custody and turned over to the court system or her parents. I really haven't seen anyone defend her actions, only defending her right not to be viciously manhandled to that degree in response.
But there's a massive difference between the accountability of a teenager and that of an adult, who is also a sworn peace officer. Thus, it shouldn't be surprising that he's going to come under far more scrutiny and criticism than she is.
How do you make decisions in life? Option A guarantees bad results, option B MIGHT create bad results, so go with A?
Why? I'm guessing teenagers have been a-holes for decades with their rock music and cigarettes.
I have no doubt the chick was a real piece of work. I have a two year old daughter and I bet there are going to be times she is defiant as she gets older. I probably shouldn't body slam her though. I would hope an adult, especially one trained as a PO, could refrain from body slamming teenage girls. Who knows though, maybe I'm just a hippy. I think it is perfectly fine to hold police officers to higher standard than a teenage girl.
I have no doubt the chick was a real piece of work. I have a two year old daughter and I bet there are going to be times she is defiant as she gets older. I probably shouldn't body slam her though. I would hope an adult, especially one trained as a PO, could refrain from body slamming teenage girls. Who knows though, maybe I'm just a hippy. I think it is perfectly fine to hold police officers to higher standard than a teenage girl.
long-duc-dong,
You might want to remember that you are talking to a group who by in large consists of those who were once themselves a-hole teenagers. (likely including yourself.)
I don't know, I look at things going on my son's school (my alma mater) and I have to say it's a different world, but in many respects for the better. I can remember back in my day racism was pretty commonplace, those who were mentally handicapped were often derided and made fun of, school bullying was much more rampant, and God forbid if someone suspected another student of being gay, etc.
Most of those "issues" are now, for the most part distant memories and it's not only being driven by "the authorities" that be, most of the changes have been brought about by peer pressure. The students I know (in my son's peer group) are fairly respectful and do not display so many of the negative traits I remember being pretty prevalent in my own peer group who certainly displayed some of the bad behavior I identified above.
The kids I hung out with were for the most part run-of-the-mill "avg" kids for the time, not the "hoods" or the "dopers" of the era, it was just because those attitudes and actions were much more prevalent back at that time.
You might want to remember that you are talking to a group who by in large consists of those who were once themselves a-hole teenagers. (likely including yourself.)
I don't know, I look at things going on my son's school (my alma mater) and I have to say it's a different world, but in many respects for the better. I can remember back in my day racism was pretty commonplace, those who were mentally handicapped were often derided and made fun of, school bullying was much more rampant, and God forbid if someone suspected another student of being gay, etc.
Most of those "issues" are now, for the most part distant memories and it's not only being driven by "the authorities" that be, most of the changes have been brought about by peer pressure. The students I know (in my son's peer group) are fairly respectful and do not display so many of the negative traits I remember being pretty prevalent in my own peer group who certainly displayed some of the bad behavior I identified above.
The kids I hung out with were for the most part run-of-the-mill "avg" kids for the time, not the "hoods" or the "dopers" of the era, it was just because those attitudes and actions were much more prevalent back at that time.
I was not an a-hole teenager. Very respectful of my elders and law enforcement. I'm an a-hole now though, so I've made up for my correct upbringing. I didn't grow up in a place where there was a lot of kids my age acting like I see so many kids acting today. Sure there were the bad apples and degenerates, but for the most part good kids. Of course we didn't have a video camera in every room to video everything that went on so maybe that stuff was going on and I just didn't know about it.
If I read correctly on the CNN website, there is video that shows the girl hitting the cop first...of course that isn't as sensational so everyone is sticking with the desk slamming video. Law enforcement has it's problems but the classroom is getting totally out of hand because there is no fear of physical harm. I could never work in the school system...I would be jail.
