Am I the only one who thinks cops should...

[Cowpoke]

If I read correctly on the CNN website, there is video that shows the girl hitting the cop first...of course that isn't as sensational so everyone is sticking with the desk slamming video. Law enforcement has it's problems but the classroom is getting totally out of hand because there is no fear of physical harm. I could never work in the school system...I would be jail.

I've seen 3 videos and the cop says "Are you coming home with me or do I have to make you?" (according to the captions I didn't have sound on).. from the front of the classroom, then walks to where she is and that's where the 1st vid picks up. So unless she hits him at the front of the class then runs to her seat, I'm doubting that report.

 

[squeak]

The police come around, I'll be quiet. The police leave, I'll be talking again.

 

[hollywood]

Cordellhall,

Do you think that getting physical with someone is the ONLY means of correcting them?

And how is "sticking with the desk slamming story" when we can all see with our own eyes that he in fact does lift and slam the desk over backwards as part of removing her from the room?

Again, the calculation and test for the amount of physical force that can lawfully be used in affecting her arrest is basically the minimum amount necessary to do so (considering her actual "offense" was so minor). Even if she punched him, along the scale of dealing with that, there are far less violent options available her backwards in the manner he did. He didn't have to respond with Hulk smash from the get go.

 

[Cordellhall83]

Hollywood, lets have this discussion the next time you get pulled over for a minor traffic violation. When the officer comes up to your car, hit him with your fist. Come back and let us know how the minimum amount necessary of force works out for you. As to the "sticking with the desk slamming story"...it's convenient editing to a point....just show what you want. Like only showing the officer pulling you out of the car and slamming your face to the ground for speeding...oh, we chose not to show the hitting the officer part.

Do you think giving someone "time out" is the ONLY means of correcting them?

 

[Cowpoke]

Hollywood, lets have this discussion the next time you get pulled over for a minor traffic violation. When the officer comes up to your car, hit him with your fist. Come back and let us know how the minimum amount necessary of force works out for you. As to the "sticking with the desk slamming story"...it's convenient editing to a point....just show what you want. Like only showing the officer pulling you out of the car and slamming your face to the ground for speeding...oh, we chose not to show the hitting the officer part.

Do you think giving someone "time out" is the ONLY means of correcting them?

A. There are multiple videos, none show any punches by her, or any opportunity for her to do so. Nothing suggests "convenient editing".

B. "Do you think giving someone "time out" is the ONLY means of correcting them?"

Tons already eloquently explained:

"...there's a professional middle ground between slinging her chair to the ground like an ignorant troll, and politely begging her to comply like a p&^%y.. "

I'm baffled at how anyone doesn't get that.

 

[hollywood]

Yes, Cordellhall because me (at my adult size) is exactly the same as a 16 yr old girl and the same amount of force applied should be exactly the same.

Did you even read the rules established in the Supreme Court case? There's 3 factors that have to be reviewed and to try and claim that either the circumstances (in your hypothetical scenario) or the notion that the minimum force necessary to subdue me and a 16yr old girl is identical is simply absurd.

The girl should be punished, ejected from school, expelled, etc. but let's not take that to mean that it excuses the complete and apparently unnecessary violent reaction by the PO. The police are not entitled to simply mete out punishment as they see fit. I fully support the reasonable application of force necessary to remove her from the room. I NEVER have suggest otherwise.

 

[inspoke]

Maybe I missed it but has anyone proposed a specific alternative to what the PO did?

 

[CowboyJD]

Maybe I missed it but has anyone proposed a specific alternative to what the PO did?

1. Drag the desk and her outside.

2. There are taught techniques for breaking someone's grip on something they are holding onto and then what is called the "escort" position which is basically a Japanese Jiu jitsu straight arm bar or a chicken win behind the back. Then decide if you want to break grip on the other hand and handcuff her.

3. Drag her out by her shoulders/under her arms. If she wants to hold onto the desk, let her.

4. Call in another officer to break the grip then handcuff and take her out.

Those are just a few.

 

[Been Jammin]

Get your taser out. Warn her
If she doesn't comply tase away.

 

[J.R. Murphy's]

2. There are taught techniques for breaking someone's grip on something they are holding onto and then what is called the "escort" position which is basically a Japanese Jiu jitsu straight arm bar or a chicken win behind the back. Then decide if you want to break grip on the other hand and handcuff her.

Those are just a few.

Precisely, this. There are several wrist/joint locks that could've been used in this situation, none of which involve slamming her to the ground. I'm always amazed that these situations are immediately escalated to a 10.

 

[hollywood]

I'm not writing this to completely excuse the girls actions, but I am suggesting that perhaps this may change your opinion of WHY she may have acted this way.

The girl in question just lost (death) her mother and grandmother in the last month or so and had recently been placed in a Foster home.

 

[JonnyVito]

Did all the peppers die and suddenly the cops ran out of pepper spray? IF I was a cop I would pepper spray everyone.

 

[Been Jammin]

Did all the peppers die and suddenly the cops ran out of pepper spray? IF I was a cop I would pepper spray everyone.

Not an option in this case. The whole point of trying to get her out of the classroom was because she was a disruption and was preventing the teacher from teaching and the other students from learning. Spray pepper spray in that room and everyone would have to get up and get the heck out of there.

 

[Been Jammin]

I'm not writing this to completely excuse the girls actions, but I am suggesting that perhaps this may change your opinion of WHY she may have acted this way.

The girl in question just lost (death) her mother and grandmother in the last month or so and had recently been placed in a Foster home.

That is tragic. Still, she should have complied when asked to leave the room by the teacher, and asked again by the administrator, and asked/told to leave by the cop. Sucks for all parties that things played out the way they did.

 

[HighStickHarry]

In all aspects of life when you do something against the rules of society whatever happens next is essentially your fault. The cop never has the opportunity to go ballistic if she doesn't act a fool. Michael brown is still alive if he goes to school instead of trying to kill a cop. Freddy gray is still alive if he chooses to live a productive life instead of a life of crime.

How many instances are there of cops abusing completely innocent people? I'm sure it happens but where are the youtubes and the media circuses around them???

 

[tcpoke]

I get what you're saying, and agree with some of it. But to allude that death is the risk you run for breaking a "rule" is absurd. Sure there are circumstances that may hold true, but it shouldn't be looked at as a rule of thumb.

 

[BvillePoker]

I love my daughters and they are great kids and I am proud of them, but I can understand anyone's compulsion to yank a teenage girl up by the nap of their shirt and show them some consequences. However I have never done that and this officer should not have either because it is WRONG! Police officers that fill these positions at schools should have to go to special training and be vetted before getting the posting.

 

[davidallen]

... It took three people to get to the point of what we saw on the video.

One of which has an under developed prefrontal cortex and and a relatively over developed nucleus accumbent - to me that person deserves the adults in the room to make better decisions than she obviously would/can...

 

[long-duc-dong]

One of which has an under developed prefrontal cortex and and a relatively over developed nucleus accumbent - to me that person deserves the adults in the room to make better decisions than she obviously would/can...

What? So a 16 year old isn't capable of making good decisions?

 

[hollywood]

In all aspects of life when you do something against the rules of society whatever happens next is essentially your fault.

Sorry, I don't agree with that. There's literally billions of variables that come into play in response to your actions.

In this case, it's not the fact of what she did (no one is arguing it wasn't wrong and/or shouldn't have been dealt with some level of discipline) the issue is one or proportionality and reasonableness.

If I decide to park in a no-parking zone (against the "rules of society") it's not my fault if I go back to my car and a PO shoots me dead for my offense. If I'm responsible for me breaking the law, then just as much that PO is also personally responsible for his breach of the law in response to my actions.

If this isn't the case, then you start to live in a world where: a woman who responds to a man twice her size charging at her with a closed fist poised to strike, by trying to slap him away can get absolutely devastated by a punch and it's all her fault. Every independent actor in an event, holds the responsibility to act in a manner that is reasonable and appropriate under the circumstances. You can't start with the premise that every action can be treated with the most extreme response, no matter how slight the original action was.

 

[davidallen]

What?

Of the three people you reference as contributing to this situation one is biologically and socially less developed than the other two. The hope is that in those scenarios the more mature and cooler heads prevail.

The teenager at least has biology as some form of justification for her idiotic behavior, not so much for the adults...

 

[Inky29]

Did the girl suffer any injuries? I haven't been following the story that closely. Sadly from what I can gather, the message that is being delivered by the coverage I have seen is you don't have to comply with the law and any response the police take will be wrong. Could the cop have tried something else, sure he could but I promise you anything other than the girl complying and walking out on her own would come off on video as excessive. Drag the desk out and she flails around and they end up on the ground and it looks just as bad as what happened, try the arm bar and she's crying and screaming on camera and folks would talk about it being excessive.

My rule is pretty simple, comply and probably 90% of these situations never happen. If she had been walking out of the class as asked and the cop threw her around then by all means that's excessive. From the one clip I saw, it looks like an idiot getting what they deserved. I don't feel sorry for folks that bring it on themselves.

 

[Ostatedchi]

As an officer you politely indicate that she has been asked to remove herself and she is to immediately comply.
When she does nothing, inform her that she is now under arrest and now instead of going home she's going to jail.
When she doesn't comply, you remover her from the chair, cuff and stuff her dumb a$$.
Then perp-walk her out of the school. If she won't comply, you carry her to the cop car for the trip to booking.

 

[hollywood]

Inky29,

You're simply wrong, it's not that ANY action taken by the police would be "Wrong" it was the Police Officer was in VIOLATION OF THE LAW by the actions he took under the circumstances.

JD and I have already explained numerous times now that there exists a SCOTUS decision on this very issue, which lays out a spectrum of behavior based on three principal points. 1. The nature of the offense (severity); 2. The imminent threat of harm the suspect poses; and 3. The amount of resistance or threat to flee the suspect poses.

With this case, in what should have been a 2 or 3 on the LEGAL spectrum of violence the PO could lawfully take to subdue (at least in the initial apprehension attempt) someone (a 16 yr old girl who is virtually no physical threat to a hulking weightlifting man twice her size) who is being arrested for the most minor of misdemeanor offenses, this guy started off right out of the gate with somewhere around 8-9 on the scale.

That is the issue. You can't simply allow the police to be judge, jury and executioner and if you want her to comply with the law as part of living in a peaceful, orderly society you cannot simply look the other way while this particular PO fails to comply with his legal obligations and somehow use her failure to comply as a defense. You remember when your mom told you: Two wrongs don't make a right? Well, she was right.

If the PO was attempting to arrest a full grown man who had just mugged someone by brute force and was fleeing the scene, he would be perfectly within the law to start at the 8-9 range. But that is NOT the case here and what he did was way out of proportion to the offense and his obligation to use the minimal force necessary to make the arrest.

Granted, the following comes from her attorney who may not be the most objective source, but reportedly she had to have a cast place on one arm and has neck and back injuries.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Inky29,

You're simply wrong, it's not that ANY action taken by the police would be "Wrong" it was the Police Officer was in VIOLATION OF THE LAW by the actions he took under the circumstances.

JD and I have already explained numerous times now that there exists a SCOTUS decision on this very issue, which lays out a spectrum of behavior based on three principal points. 1. The nature of the offense (severity); 2. The imminent threat of harm the suspect poses; and 3. The amount of resistance or threat to flee the suspect poses.

With this case, in what should have been a 2 or 3 on the LEGAL spectrum of violence the PO could lawfully take to subdue (at least in the initial apprehension attempt) someone (a 16 yr old girl who is virtually no physical threat to a hulking weightlifting man twice her size) who is being arrested for the most minor of misdemeanor offenses, this guy started off right out of the gate with somewhere around 8-9 on the scale.

That is the issue. You can't simply allow the police to be judge, jury and executioner and if you want her to comply with the law as part of living in a peaceful, orderly society you cannot simply look the other way while this particular PO fails to comply with his legal obligations and somehow use her failure to comply as a defense. You remember when your mom told you: Two wrongs don't make a right? Well, she was right.

If the PO was attempting to arrest a full grown man who had just mugged someone by brute force and was fleeing the scene, he would be perfectly within the law to start at the 8-9 range. But that is NOT the case here and what he did was way out of proportion to the offense and his obligation to use the minimal force necessary to make the arrest.

Granted, the following comes from her attorney who may not be the most objective source, but reportedly she had to have a cast place on one arm and has neck and back injuries.

Why is an attorney not a good source of information? What is your occupation if you don't mind my asking?

 

[Inky29]

I'm not saying that any action taken would have been legally wrong, I'm talking about they way it was perceived and covered. Like I said, one of the suggestions was he could have drug her out into the hallway still seated in her desk, now I don't believe it's a far leap to believe she would not have gone willingly since up to this point she had done nothing willingly. So he starts dragging her desk out and she goes limp body and the desk tumbles over and then he has to pull her out of the desk. He would have been legally right but I'm saying on camera it would have looked bad and the focus of the story would not have been disrespectful teen gets arrested, it would still be that the cop was abusive. Same thing goes for the arm bar that was mentioned, he would have been legally right but the way stories are covered now the video would have shown a big cop arm barring a girl and her screaming and crying and heck some of her classmates would have been hollering as well. The story once again would have been covered as bad cop abusing a teenage girl. So short of the kid just walking out on her own I just don't believe that any action he took would have been covered any differently. I'm sure legally he could have done something different, however I just think the end results are going to end up the same. I personally classify him pulling a gun or tasing her an 8-9. I'd say what he did was around a 4 but that's just me. I don't look at it as two wrongs, I look at it as one wrong and she ended up getting arrested, the fact it wasn't as smooth as she would have liked to have been arrested is still her wrong. If someone has video of successful removal of a chunky girl from a tight school desk against her will and wants to share it I'm perfectly happy to change my opinion. I don't want theory as to what could be done, simply show me. You would have me on the side of the excessive if he pulled his gun or taser on her or walked over and just started punching her in the face repeatedly. That to me is an 8-9 (I'm assuming this scale is a 1-10).

 

[hollywood]

Inky29

It's about his LAWFUL and LEGAL duty to start with the least amount of force necessary to affect the arrest.

"Chunky" girl? After he flipped over in the desk, he pulled her out of the desk and tossed her a good 7-8 ft like she was a rag doll.

If things escalated to the point he needed to use that level of force to subdue her and get her out of the room that's one thing. He started with a level of force (in the legal continuum of force scale that JD brought up, which is the legal standard for judging the level of force and whether it was excessive) well above the scale which is legally justifiable. You seem to think that short of him punching her in the face or pulling his sidearm and shooting her that he can basically do anything he wants and would be in the "right." That simply isn't true, he's had plenty enough training that has taught him that isn't true, and he's been fired because he BROKE THE LAW.

We haven't set up this country to be policed by a bunch of brown shirts who can do anything they want under color of authority. You want to take the position that the teenage girl knew the rules and broke them and should be punished, that's fine (I actually agree). But then it's not at all consistent to take the position that he he knew the rules, broke them and should not be punished. Not every freakin' minor offense out there needs to be dealt with by violent force.

You figure this "thug" should have been roughed up by the police as well? (After all, he appears to have refused to follow their orders, so he got what was coming to him, right?)

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29049967/blind-man-wins-excessive-force-case-against-denver

 

[Inky29]

Wood, what I'm saying is I don't believe that any of the methods you or JD mentioned would have played out any different on video than what this officer did. In the link you provided the officer did nothing wrong according to police policy, yet somehow that guy ended up with an injury and the court of public opinion found him guilty in civil court. That cop still has his job and personally I think what he did was worse than the teenager incident. He followed the rules and was "right" according to policy policy. In your link I do believe things could have been handled differently (assuming those are all the facts of the case), however no one has proven to me that there was a better way to get the girl out of the desk and out of the classroom. I've heard the other methods but in every other scenario I can see it getting just as ugly as what happened, if not worse.

Yeah, she's chunky and it's a tight fit in that desk. He didn't flip the desk over, he grabbed her to pull her out and she fights and momentum flips the desk. He has her around the neck and has her leg and is trying to pull her out sideways from the desk and she resists and SHE causes the desk to flip, after being told multiple times it was going to happen. That desk was going to flip no matter what method he used to get her out of the desk, how hard is that for you to understand. Slide the desk and she digs her heals in and the desk goes over and you cry that he's being to tough. Try the arms under the shoulders and her legs get stuck coming out of the desk and things go flying and you cry that he's being to tough. The reality is, he has about 3 ft worth of room to work and he got her out of there and subdued in about 3 seconds. Damn good work in my opinion.

What is the correct amount of force to remove this girl from her desk? Please tell me in your mind and in your experience how it should have happened differently? Obvious you probably would have just lectured her about how you were right and she would have fallen asleep but most officers aren't blessed with your gift of gab

I'm all for non violent approaches to situations but I'm failing to see one in this situation knowing all the information that I have. I'd be willing to bet that the cop will sue to get his job back and win.

 

[Inky29]

BTW, I think most of the time I disagree with you most of the conversations feel like they need to be held at a bar with us sharing a pitcher.

 

[hollywood]

Inky - true dat on the pitcher.

Yep, the Denver Police investigated the incident to which I linked and concluded that they had not violated procedure. A jury found that that did to the tune of $400,000.

Let me in on another case where the police were informed of wrong-doing by one of their officers and concluded that there was nothing to it. When initially contacted by a victim of a sexual assault by an OKC Police officer, he was allowed to continue to work without penalty. It was only when a 50 yr old woman filed another complaint in 2014, they decided to open an investigation and found some 13 victims, many of them having been assaulted years earler.

OKC Police Officer Dan Holtzclaw will be facing a jury this week for raping and sexually assaulting those women. So, you'll have to excuse me if I don't take the findings of "internal" investigations as likely leading to the truth all the time. It's about on par with letting the ou president, athletic director and football coach "investigate" their own program for NCAA compliance and issuing an "all clear" finding.

 

[CowboyJD]

Inky - true dat on the pitcher.

Yep, the Denver Police investigated the incident to which I linked and concluded that they had not violated procedure. A jury found that that did to the tune of $400,000.

Let me in on another case where the police were informed of wrong-doing by one of their officers and concluded that there was nothing to it. When initially contacted by a victim of a sexual assault by an OKC Police officer, he was allowed to continue to work without penalty. It was only when a 50 yr old woman filed another complaint in 2014, they decided to open an investigation and found some 13 victims, many of them having been assaulted years earler.

OKC Police Officer Dan Holtzclaw will be facing a jury this week for raping and sexually assaulting those women. So, you'll have to excuse me if I don't take the findings of "internal" investigations as likely leading to the truth all the time. It's about on par with letting the ou president, athletic director and football coach "investigate" their own program for NCAA compliance and issuing an "all clear" finding.

Your information and claims about the Holtzclaw are inaccurate, Wood. I can't go into detail, but your implication that OKCPD were lax in investigating him just isn't true. Police officers have due process rights and probable cause being needed for a felony arrest just like any other citizen.

 

[hollywood]

JD,

I was going by some media reports which indicated that the police were first told about Holtzclaw back in 2013 by some girl who was admittedly a "drug addict" and they basically ignored it or chocked it up to her lying.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - I'm sure you've got more information on this case than I do. I just find it amazing that he could go almost two years without being found out and now at least 13 victims have come forward and with most cases there's almost certainly some that will remain silent.

 

[CowboyJD]

JD,

I was going by some media reports which indicated that the police were first told about Holtzclaw back in 2013 by some girl who was admittedly a "drug addict" and they basically ignored it or chocked it up to her lying.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - I'm sure you've got more information on this case than I do. I just find it amazing that he could go almost two years without being found out and now at least 13 victims have come forward and with most cases there's almost certainly some that will remain silent.

I am telling you definitively that they didn't ignore it or chalk it up to her lying.

Those 13 victims didn't just come up of their own accord. Most of them were approached by IA during their efforts to make an airtight case against Holtzclaw. You should know better than most about the reliability and accuracy of "some media reports".

 

[TheRedSon]

Alright, I got bored and stopped reading long before I finished the second page.

Some of you guys need to never work in a school or even volunteer to watch the youth at your church. This cop shouldn't have been in a school (and probably the teacher either) because he doesn't have a clue how to talk to kids (and honestly, if she hit him first he doesn't have a clue how to protect himself).

I work in this environment every day. In fact, my environment is tougher because the kids I work with have already been removed into a residential setting because normal life hasn't worked out for them. They can be a tough crowd.

Do you know how many times in ten years I've forcefully removed a student from where they were because they were "defiant?"

Zero. Zero times.

Defiance is not a reason to use force. In fact, with a teenager defiance is a pretty good developmental indicator. That's what teens do.

There is no reason ever for me to put my hands on a student that is no danger to themselves or others. If there's a fight or a weapon comes out... Yeah, I'm going to stop it. The teacher getting annoyed though? That's not going to cause me to lose my job, and that teacher probably needs to reevaluate how they're managing the classroom to start with.

 

[osutater]

http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/article43654638.html