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Why most of you are wrong on the wall.

Syskatine

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I've finally figured out why this seems so self destructive. You're trying to take away the demographic that makes us a great country: people with drive. We were populated by people that got off their ass and sacrificed to get here. Well they may be small and brown, but if they walk up here from Guatamala...

Having these hungry people looking for opportunity get here by hook or crook and then hustle their ass off has been a pretty good recipe for success and economic velocity.

Plus, there's been so many streaks of racist anti-immigration crisis in this country -- I stumbled over some ohio riots in the 1800's over german immigration one time -- I'm an old history student and never heard of it. The country's history is a constant roiling boil of anti-immigration sentiment.
 
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I've finally figured out why this seems so self destructive. You're trying to take away the demographic that makes us a great country: people with drive. We were populated by people that got off their ass and sacrificed to get here. Well they may be small and brown, but if they walk up here from Guatamala...

Having these hungry people looking for opportunity get here by hook or crook and then hustle their ass off has been a pretty good recipe for success and economic velocity.

Plus, there's been so many streaks of racist anti-immigration crisis in this country -- I stumbled over some ohio riots in the 1800's over german immigration one time -- I'm an old history student and never heard of it. The country's history is a constant roiling boil of anti-immigration sentiment.
Lasers, bitch.
 
Xenophobia is older than prostitution.

The part that proves the mental illness of libs is that you are trying to bring that to level zero in America when the rest of the world is at a 90. Get the jews and Muslims to quit killing each other, convince China diversity is their strength and get clean water to Africa. Then America can discuss why it’s more queasy with Latin Americans than they are Canadians.

A vast majority of this country is perfectly fine with assimilated, western citizens of any color. Which was the goal at one point. But now it’s Latin American slums, free health care, dangerous deportation attempts and you are a racist if you want to keep your American culture. Which ironically is internationally known as being diverse.
 
I've finally figured out why this seems so self destructive. You're trying to take away the demographic that makes us a great country: people with drive. We were populated by people that got off their ass and sacrificed to get here. Well they may be small and brown, but if they walk up here from Guatamala...

Having these hungry people looking for opportunity get here by hook or crook and then hustle their ass off has been a pretty good recipe for success and economic velocity.

Plus, there's been so many streaks of racist anti-immigration crisis in this country -- I stumbled over some ohio riots in the 1800's over german immigration one time -- I'm an old history student and never heard of it. The country's history is a constant roiling boil of anti-immigration sentiment.

Any explanation that occurs to you which uses words like xenopgobia and brown people... keep looking for answers. That’s not it.
 
Any explanation that occurs to you which uses words like xenopgobia and brown people... keep looking for answers. That’s not it.

Don't project that. My explanation is totally race neutral, it's others that make it a race deal.
 
Don't project that. My explanation is totally race neutral, it's others that make it a race deal.
You're so full of it, you and your ilk see everything through the prism of race.

We don't want the USA to become Guatemala and think immigrants should come legally and be able to support themselves. This is somehow racist to the lib morons. You can't compare the 1800's or even the early 1900's to the modern world it's a ridiculous argument to say "this how we did it in the past".

I have a solution to all those who want open boarders for anyone. Why bring them here? Just move to your favorite shit hole and you'll be getting what you want, you will bring diversity to their country and can help pay for their government like you want us Americans to do. Problem solved, get the hell out of here. Win Win for all of us.
 
Not specifically saying you are using it, but
I hear it all the time as an argument. If you want border security (a wall) you are afraid of “brown people.” It’s silly and lazy.

You may not agree with it, but if you look at the people at the MAGA rallies and all the obvious racists that buy into the MAGA stuff, it sure is a convenient and obvious explanation. Not everyone but.. it's an undeniable component of the MAGA demographic.
 
You're so full of it, you and your ilk see everything through the prism of race.

We don't want the USA to become Guatemala and think immigrants should come legally and be able to support themselves. This is somehow racist to the lib morons. You can't compare the 1800's or even the early 1900's to the modern world it's a ridiculous argument to say "this how we did it in the past".

I have a solution to all those who want open boarders for anyone. Why bring them here? Just move to your favorite shit hole and you'll be getting what you want, you will bring diversity to their country and can help pay for their government like you want us Americans to do. Problem solved, get the hell out of here. Win Win for all of us.

I already live in a shithole: Oklahoma, red state paradise full of zombies like you.
 
You're so full of it, you and your ilk see everything through the prism of race.

We don't want the USA to become Guatemala and think immigrants should come legally and be able to support themselves. This is somehow racist to the lib morons. You can't compare the 1800's or even the early 1900's to the modern world it's a ridiculous argument to say "this how we did it in the past".

I have a solution to all those who want open boarders for anyone. Why bring them here? Just move to your favorite shit hole and you'll be getting what you want, you will bring diversity to their country and can help pay for their government like you want us Americans to do. Problem solved, get the hell out of here. Win Win for all of us.


I think you are having a serious overreaction. I would not say race is a driving force as regards anti-non-European immigration, but it is definitely a factor. No one on this planet is immune from noticing and reacting to race.

I wonder where you are getting the idea that Guatemalan immigrants (as an example) want to turn the US into the same hellhole they just escaped. Is it because they are getting the same government handouts that should be for American citizens only? I know several Guatemalan immigrants (anecdotal, I admit) and not a single one of them wants to turn America into Guatemala. What is your reasoning in thinking they do?
 
I think you are having a serious overreaction. I would not say race is a driving force as regards anti-non-European immigration, but it is definitely a factor. No one on this planet is immune from noticing and reacting to race.

I wonder where you are getting the idea that Guatemalan immigrants (as an example) want to turn the US into the same hellhole they just escaped. Is it because they are getting the same government handouts that should be for American citizens only? I know several Guatemalan immigrants (anecdotal, I admit) and not a single one of them wants to turn America into Guatemala. What is your reasoning in thinking they do?
I never said they wanted to turn America into Guatemala but what do you think will happen if large numbers of illiterate people from corrupt and crime ridden societies move to a country. Do you think they will assimilate and become Americanized? Or will they congregate into communities with their fellow immigrants and will those communities resemble more where they came from or modern America?

40 years ago Dearborn, Michigan was the quintessential American city. I know because my ex was raised there with 11 brothers and sisters and her father was Fire Chief. It now looks more like Baghdad than an American city.

Parts of south OKC look more like Tijuana than an American city. I don't have a problem with it if the people are legal, self supporting and law abiding let them live anyway they want. But don't tell me they will not bring their culture of poverty and crime with them. By coming here illegally they have automatically ruled themselves out as being law abiding. So as far as I'm concerned they have forfeited their right to immigrate to our generous land.
 
There’s not a person on this board against immigration. Most of us are against illegal immigration. I don’t know why that’s so hard. Should you be able to just walk into Canada or Mexico and take up residency? I’d like to see you try.

The thing is...trump is doing everything he can to restrict LEGAL immigration as well, including the very chain migration system his wife’s family came here on.

Does this make sense?
 
The thing is...trump is doing everything he can to restrict LEGAL immigration as well, including the very chain migration system his wife’s family came here on.

Does this make sense?
Yes, are we expected to take in everyone's entire family regardless of their background, skills or ability to support themselves? What's wrong with limiting it to immediate family and requiring that they have visible means of support?

Obviously President Trump's wife's parents are never going to need government assistance. Did she bring her aunts and uncles? Her cousins, second cousins, third cousins? I don't know but I doubt it, yet this is the system you support. It's so illogical it's comical but Democrats say "the more the merrier, don't worry American workers will foot the bill".
 
The thing is...trump is doing everything he can to restrict LEGAL immigration as well, including the very chain migration system his wife’s family came here on.

Does this make sense?

Visa approvals are down by about 9%. Other than that, there has been no policy restrictions on legal immigration.

Any argument about limiting asylum, his temporary 'travel ban' from high risk countries, or refugee program modifications are all BS. You can attempt to make them out to be more than they are. But it doesn't fly.

And at any time, the congress can pass legislation to reform immigration law. Any real reform would be signed into law. But, the Democrats don't want to actually fix the problem as evidenced by the prior 8 years. It keeps votes going their way.
 
Immigration is so partisan with the cherry picking of issues.

1) Should we secure our border and look into permanent barriers of entry including some type of wall or fence? Yes

2) Should there be a solution found for Dreamers and provide a pathway to citizenship? You can convince me. Maybe this be a 10 year process with payment of taxes and some other stipulations about not committing crimes, high school education or GED equivalent? Spitballing here.

3) Should our Immigration/Green Card Process be simplified so people wanting to come into our country legally don't have to pay an arm and a leg for lawyers while waiting 5, 10, 15 years to get their family into the country? Absolutely

Both sides don't want this debate to end. What happened to compromise and developing a plan that benefits Americans? This is an issue for the President and Congress. Fix this crap.
 
You may not agree with it, but if you look at the people at the MAGA rallies and all the obvious racists that buy into the MAGA stuff, it sure is a convenient and obvious explanation. Not everyone but.. it's an undeniable component of the MAGA demographic.

That’s a fantasy. It’s the boogeyman syndrome you accuse others of having. Just because you say it’s a component doesn’t show that it is one. It’s lazy and silly to suggest racism is a meaningful component of this stuff.
 
That’s a fantasy. It’s the boogeyman syndrome you accuse others of having. Just because you say it’s a component doesn’t show that it is one. It’s lazy and silly to suggest racism is a meaningful component of this stuff.
They'll never give up on it, it's what gives them moral authority over people they disagree with and allows them to hate without guilt.
 
You’re using 2017 statistics, based on policy before him lol.

Holy shit this is unreal haha

Righty talking points.l

Yes it is. No one can be as purposely stupid and obtuse as you. 18 stats aren’t out. Was trump not president in 17? Why didn’t we see a big drop?

No matter what handle you use, you’re still a silly fool. Again.
 
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I never said they wanted to turn America into Guatemala but what do you think will happen if large numbers of illiterate people from corrupt and crime ridden societies move to a country. Do you think they will assimilate and become Americanized? Or will they congregate into communities with their fellow immigrants and will those communities resemble more where they came from or modern America?

40 years ago Dearborn, Michigan was the quintessential American city. I know because my ex was raised there with 11 brothers and sisters and her father was Fire Chief. It now looks more like Baghdad than an American city.

Parts of south OKC look more like Tijuana than an American city. I don't have a problem with it if the people are legal, self supporting and law abiding let them live anyway they want. But don't tell me they will not bring their culture of poverty and crime with them. By coming here illegally they have automatically ruled themselves out as being law abiding. So as far as I'm concerned they have forfeited their right to immigrate to our generous land.

I'm sorry to take so long to reply, Headhunter. My wife has had me running errands all day. I have read your remark and it has my head spinning with things I want to say in reply. Right now they are a jumbled up mess; I don't know how to put them in a logical sequence, so I apologize in advance if this comes off as sporadic gibberish (it makes perfect sense in my head!).

You are right that you did not say Latinos wanted to turn America into a mirror image of what they left behind. I have seen that impulse/concern from several people on this board and I projected it onto you. For that I apologize.

You talked about the quintessential American city and express frustration that Dearborn no longer looks like it has in the past. I would ask you to explain what is a quintessential American city?

You also mentioned that parts of SW OKC looked Mexican (Tijuana) rather than an American city.

What is someone like me supposed to think about remarks like that? It appears to me that your notion of an "American" city is one that mimics cities designed by white Europeans. What is it about part of OKC looking like Tijuana that troubles you? Is it the brightly colored storefronts and Spanish language signs? Please understand I am asking out of pure curiosity. I'm not trying to lead you into a trap (I'm not smart enough to do that anyway.). I genuinely do not understand what it is that has you so concerned?

You mentioned that they are bringing their "culture of poverty and crime" with them. I have used this analogy before, but I think this is an appropriate time to bring it up again: Suggesting that Latin immigrants are under the sway of a culture of poverty and crime is the same attitude liberals have that because some gun owners unleash a mass shooting then all gun owners must be the same way. I would suggest that the overwhelming majority of them are coming for the work, not to continue to live in poverty and become criminals. The overwhelming majority of them are doing everything in their power to escape a culture of poverty and crime.

I guess the thing that most puzzles me is your seeming lack of confidence in American culture, the American way of life. You seem to be genuinely concerned that our culture cannot withstand a culture that sits beside it. Yours is the same attitude that people had about the poor Irish and Germans and Polish that "invaded" America in an earlier era. And yet our culture survived and strengthened from the things those people brought with them. There is no reason to think it won't happen in today's climate.

And before you say the Irish and Germans and Polish came here legally I would point out that there were no restrictions on them. But suppose the same legal obstacles had existed back then. Don't you suppose that the Irish, etc. would have come here illegally had there not been an ocean in the way?

My remarks are not meant to be a defense of "illegal: immigration. I understand our government has coercively instituted restrictions. I understand the difference between those that are here legally and those that are not. The main thing I would ask of those of you that are pro-wall/strict limits on immigrants/don't let poor people in would be please stop vilifying them as subhuman. We are all God's children, don't you agree?
 
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These people can make their communities into anything they want as long as they follow the law and can support themselves. But if you do not see that there are some major issues in parts of these cities where large numbers of immigrants live then I don't know what to say to that.

When I say quintessential American City, I mean clean, safe, friendly. I don't know how unsafe Dearborn is but I can tell you it is not clean and certainly is not friendly.
 
Yes it is. No one can be as purposely stupid and obtuse as you. 18 stats aren’t out. Was trump not president in 17? Why didn’t we see a big drop?

No matter what handle you use, you’re still a silly fool. Again.

He got a 27 on the ACT. Not that bright.
 
I've finally figured out why this seems so self destructive. You're trying to take away the demographic that makes us a great country: people with drive. We were populated by people that got off their ass and sacrificed to get here. Well they may be small and brown, but if they walk up here from Guatamala...

Having these hungry people looking for opportunity get here by hook or crook and then hustle their ass off has been a pretty good recipe for success and economic velocity.

Plus, there's been so many streaks of racist anti-immigration crisis in this country -- I stumbled over some ohio riots in the 1800's over german immigration one time -- I'm an old history student and never heard of it. The country's history is a constant roiling boil of anti-immigration sentiment.

I like that you are attempting to dig deeper into an onion and found a very real outcome, adverse selection against entrepreneurial trait.

But you get a huge fuking downvote after that for being a moron of epic proportions. Drop your racism charge as a main driver of anything.

All you're demonstrating is how disrespectful you are of anybody else's value system. F*ck you for that....when if you pull your damned (to hell) head out of your ass, you'll easily acknowledge other reasons why people think the fuking laws should be fuking respected.
 
All you're demonstrating is how disrespectful you are of anybody else's value system. F*ck you for that....when if you pull your damned (to hell) head out of your ass, you'll easily acknowledge other reasons why people think the fuking laws should be fuking respected.

Damn, next time tell he/she/it what you really think!:D
 
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These people can make their communities into anything they want as long as they follow the law and can support themselves. But if you do not see that there are some major issues in parts of these cities where large numbers of immigrants live then I don't know what to say to that.

When I say quintessential American City, I mean clean, safe, friendly. I don't know how unsafe Dearborn is but I can tell you it is not clean and certainly is not friendly.

Won’t attempt to speak for Dearborn, I’ve never been there, so I don’t know what it is like now or how it was before.

I’ve spent much time in Tijuana - I mean SW OKC - and have not found it to be appreciably dirtier or unsafe than many other parts of the city. The people I have seen have been no more unfriendly than elsewhere, and often are very nice. Have you spent any time at all in SW OKC?

But just so I understand, in your opinion a quintessential American City can be defined by being clean, safe and friendly. Are there any other ingredients, or is that it? Because I can think of many American cities, large and small, that would fail that definition, cities without much of an immigrant population.
 
I think what he’s trying to say is that for years people came to the US and became “Americans”. Proudly holding onto their heritage, but never putting it in front of their now home country. In several instances groups of immigrants have come here and tried to make an insular community that mimics what they had back home. Many do not feel the need to learn the native language or adhere to native customs.

Oklahoma City is an excellent case study. You have a growing a vibrant Vietnamese community who’s genesis was dirt poor refugees. In a couple of generations they are grudating doctors and lawyers that speak English and truly consider themselves Americans. Traditions and culture are still very important to them, but the scale doesn’t tip. There is also a thriving Nigerian community that is doing much the same.

Now if you look at the Hispanic culture you do see some great examples. The guy who does our lawn is a resident alien. He started with just him and a cousin pushing mowers and he now has multiple employees and several trucks and trailers. He’s worked hard to improve his English and he’s told me he intends to sit for citizenship - as he considers himself American. He’ll be the first to tell you many, if not most, of his compatriots have no desire to follow his path. They only look south and are only using the US as a means to an end. My wife is a teacher in Edmond and let’s face it ... Edmond is as white bread as it gets, yet she has Hispanic students that struggle mightily because their fathers don’t allow English to be taught or spoken in the home. She has told me that parent communication is nigh on impossible, because the moms in the home especially are not English speakers. How do they expect to thrive in this country if learning the language isn’t important to them?

I guess I’m more sensitive to this, because much of my heritage comes from Germans who were living in Russia. They were sponsored and arrived in this country in the late teens and twenties, because they were forced out of their homes by the Bolsheviks. When they came here, none of them spoke English, but in a generation they were sending their sons off to war against Germany. They could have stayed in Germany, but they chose to come here to be Americans and it was important to them to assimilate. It’s another topic all together, but if you don’t think Germans in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s went through massive shunning and persecution, you’re greatly mistaken. Yet, they built lives, acquired property, sent their kids to school and the result of that is a family who now lives the American dream.

I think this should be the minimum for people who want to immigrate here ...

Anyway ...
 
I think what he’s trying to say is that for years people came to the US and became “Americans”. Proudly holding onto their heritage, but never putting it in front of their now home country. In several instances groups of immigrants have come here and tried to make an insular community that mimics what they had back home. Many do not feel the need to learn the native language or adhere to native customs.

Oklahoma City is an excellent case study. You have a growing a vibrant Vietnamese community who’s genesis was dirt poor refugees. In a couple of generations they are grudating doctors and lawyers that speak English and truly consider themselves Americans. Traditions and culture are still very important to them, but the scale doesn’t tip. There is also a thriving Nigerian community that is doing much the same.

Now if you look at the Hispanic culture you do see some great examples. The guy who does our lawn is a resident alien. He started with just him and a cousin pushing mowers and he now has multiple employees and several trucks and trailers. He’s worked hard to improve his English and he’s told me he intends to sit for citizenship - as he considers himself American. He’ll be the first to tell you many, if not most, of his compatriots have no desire to follow his path. They only look south and are only using the US as a means to an end. My wife is a teacher in Edmond and let’s face it ... Edmond is as white bread as it gets, yet she has Hispanic students that struggle mightily because their fathers don’t allow English to be taught or spoken in the home. She has told me that parent communication is nigh on impossible, because the moms in the home especially are not English speakers. How do they expect to thrive in this country if learning the language isn’t important to them?

I guess I’m more sensitive to this, because much of my heritage comes from Germans who were living in Russia. They were sponsored and arrived in this country in the late teens and twenties, because they were forced out of their homes by the Bolsheviks. When they came here, none of them spoke English, but in a generation they were sending their sons off to war against Germany. They could have stayed in Germany, but they chose to come here to be Americans and it was important to them to assimilate. It’s another topic all together, but if you don’t think Germans in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s went through massive shunning and persecution, you’re greatly mistaken. Yet, they built lives, acquired property, sent their kids to school and the result of that is a family who now lives the American dream.

I think this should be the minimum for people who want to immigrate here ...

Anyway ...


I thank you for such a thoughtful reply. You make a very convincing anecdotal argument. I do not deny that many immigrants from our southern border are here only for the work. They consider themselves to be Mexicans, for example, not Americans, and they have no desire to become Americans. Frankly I see nothing wrong with that.

One of my anecdotes: I have a 42 year old man from Texas that works for me. He has lived in Oklahoma since he was 15. But to this day he insists he’s Texan, roots for the Longhorns and Dallas Cowboys, returns to El Paso for every holiday and vacation. I do not see him as being an unacceptable person to live in my community. I view the immigrant Mexicans who have his attitude also to be perfectly acceptable neighbors.

My anecdotal experience is far removed from yours. The Mexicans, Guatemalans and Hondurans with whom I have come into contact have followed the same linguistic path as your German ancestors. The first generation, the immigrants, speak little to no English. Their children, the second generation, are bilingual, and their children, the third generation, know only enough Spanish to understand a little of what their grandparents are saying.

I see history repeating itself. Irish immigrants settled in Irish conclaves in Boston, and were vilified. Russian Jews formed their own communities in New York. We have Chinatown in San Francisco. Mormons fled and created their own state.

Today we see Latino immigrants trying desperately to create communities with which they are familiar. It’s not a rejection of American culture, as so many Americans suppose. It’s trying to hold onto somerhing familiar while they try to figure out their new surroundings.

I strenuously disagree with you that they are not ambitious. The percentage of ambitious, go-getters in the Latino community is every much as strong as in others.

I’m baffled by your comment that I am mistaken if I don’t believe German immigrants were harassed and faced prejudice. That’s been exactly the argument I have been making! The Germans survived the prejudice of the 20’s and 30’s and prospered. I guess today it’s the German’s turn to harass and bring scorn upon the Mexican immigrants. But the Mexicans will survive and prosper just as the Germans did.
 
Won’t attempt to speak for Dearborn, I’ve never been there, so I don’t know what it is like now or how it was before.

I’ve spent much time in Tijuana - I mean SW OKC - and have not found it to be appreciably dirtier or unsafe than many other parts of the city. The people I have seen have been no more unfriendly than elsewhere, and often are very nice. Have you spent any time at all in SW OKC?

But just so I understand, in your opinion a quintessential American City can be defined by being clean, safe and friendly. Are there any other ingredients, or is that it? Because I can think of many American cities, large and small, that would fail that definition, cities without much of an immigrant population.
I would disagree about parts of south OKC not being dirtier, but I never said it was an unfriendly place, it does have crime issues. Dearborn is another story, different culture, very closed, very suspicious of outsiders.

No country or city is perfect but there is a reason most people who immigrate here choose America. There is a number of them that are here for reasons that do not align with most Americans view of what they want for America.
 
I would disagree about parts of south OKC not being dirtier, but I never said it was an unfriendly place, it does have crime issues. Dearborn is another story, different culture, very closed, very suspicious of outsiders.

No country or city is perfect but there is a reason most people who immigrate here choose America. There is a number of them that are here for reasons that do not align with most Americans view of what they want for America.
I appreciate that we can disagree and remain civil while doing so. Sometimes I don’t know whether we disagree as much as we are talking past each other, not understanding what the other is saying. Your last sentence is a perfect example. I have no idea what you mean. What number, do you have an idea of a percentage? What are their nefarious reasons for being here? What do most Americans view as what they want for America? America seems to be as fractured as has ever been, I’m not sure most Americans can agree on anything. Maybe I’m being too cynical, too negative. Can you clarify what you mean?
 
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