what’s wrong with this picture?

[Air_Thurman]

OhSt has high level college coaches as well. The RTC coaches are additional coaches and drilling partners.

No question everyone is chasing PSU but to discount the additional coaching and training the other programs with RTCs have and the advantage that provides is silly.

Stieber, Jaggers and Jordan are the main coaches for both the RTC and the college programs. I think they have some additional Greco coaches but Stieber, Jaggers and Jordan are the core of both programs. From a coaching perspective it isn't vastly different than our setup. Kids that go to Ohio State aren't getting additional coaching from the RTC really. It is all the same guys (unless they are Greco).

We need more senior level guys in the room period. If someone wrote a check and tomorrow Oliver, AD and White where back in Stillwater I would be ecstatic. I'm just past the point of caring if it is an RTC or just dudes in the room.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Stieber, Jaggers and Jordan are the main coaches for both the RTC and the college programs. I think they have some additional Greco coaches but Stieber, Jaggers and Jordan are the core of both programs. From a coaching perspective it isn't vastly different than our setup. Kids that go to Ohio State aren't getting additional coaching from the RTC really. It is all the same guys (unless they are Greco).

We need more senior level guys in the room period. If someone wrote a check and tomorrow Oliver, AD and White where back in Stillwater I would be ecstatic. I'm just past the point of caring if it is an RTC or just dudes in the room.

still waiting on that lottery win so I can write the check-as I imagine most of you would.

 

[osu2082]

Stieber, Jaggers and Jordan are the main coaches for both the RTC and the college programs. I think they have some additional Greco coaches but Stieber, Jaggers and Jordan are the core of both programs. From a coaching perspective it isn't vastly different than our setup. Kids that go to Ohio State aren't getting additional coaching from the RTC really. It is all the same guys (unless they are Greco).

We need more senior level guys in the room period. If someone wrote a check and tomorrow Oliver, AD and White where back in Stillwater I would be ecstatic. I'm just past the point of caring if it is an RTC or just dudes in the room.

OhSt has 4 full time coaches and a recruiting coordinator. The RTC in addition to what you listed above has two other FT coaches (Koontz and Hall)

OSU has 3 full time coaches and a recruiting coordinator. We have one coach/coordinator of the RTC in Datons dad.

While I agree that it’s the additional training partners and senior level guys in the room that makes the most impact and biggest difference the additional coaching positions that the RTC’s fund and provide is also a benefit.

 

[Air_Thurman]

OhSt has 4 full time coaches and a recruiting coordinator. The RTC in addition to what you listed above has two other FT coaches (Koontz and Hall)

OSU has 3 full time coaches and a recruiting coordinator. We have one coach/coordinator of the RTC in Datons dad.

While I agree that it’s the additional training partners and senior level guys in the room that makes the most impact and biggest difference the additional coaching positions that the RTC’s fund and provide is also a benefit.

I didn't list Koontz and Hall because they are Greco guys as far as I know (I could be wrong). I just didn't think it was a fair comparison because we aren't playing in that space. Outside of Greco, Ohio State has 5 coaches and we have 5. It would be 6 if we count the french guy but I have no idea if we do. Also, our recruiting coordinator is a legit high-level training partner and Ohio State's isnt.

I'm just to the point I think there is Penn State and then everyone else in the RTC world. Outside of what Penn State has done I'm beginning to think some of the impacts of RTCs on college programs is getting a tad over rated. Not saying they are bad or not helpful. Just a over rated a little. I am all for investing resources in Oklahoma State wrestling though. If that is a kick ass RTC then awesome. More coaches and senior level athletes in the room is never a bad thing.

If we had a cool website listing our coaches and athletes I think fans would feel 15% better about our RTC situation.

 

[osu2082]

I didn't list Koontz and Hall because they are Greco guys as far as I know (I could be wrong). I just didn't think it was a fair comparison because we aren't playing in that space. Outside of Greco, Ohio State has 5 coaches and we have 5. It would be 6 if we count the french guy but I have no idea if we do. Also, our recruiting coordinator is a legit high-level training partner and Ohio State's isnt.

I'm just to the point I think there is Penn State and then everyone else in the RTC world. Outside of what Penn State has done I'm beginning to think some of the impacts of RTCs on college programs is getting a tad over rated. Not saying they are bad or not helpful. Just a over rated a little. I am all for investing resources in Oklahoma State wrestling though. If that is a kick ass RTC then awesome. More coaches and senior level athletes in the room is never a bad thing.

If we had a cool website listing our coaches and athletes I think fans would feel 15% better about our RTC situation.

No question it really is PSU and everyone else but as the Hawkeye RTC has grown over the past 5 years, their team has re-emerged near the top. OhSt has some development issues (somewhat similar to ours) but their RTC and NIL focus has recently really paid off but I’ll be interested to watch them the next 4-5 years.

Even if we solely focus on PSU as they are the elephant in the room, it’s hard not to look at what they have done and be jealous and for them to be who we ought to try to be and be better than. The development of their guys into monsters is incredible and NCAA success has followed. Cael, Pennsylvania and a very large supportive fan base are big reasons but it’s hard not to look at their RTC and see that as the difference between them and everyone else.

 

[Air_Thurman]

No question it really is PSU and everyone else but as the Hawkeye RTC has grown over the past 5 years, their team has re-emerged near the top. OhSt has some development issues (somewhat similar to ours) but their RTC and NIL focus has recently really paid off but I’ll be interested to watch them the next 4-5 years.

Even if we solely focus on PSU as they are the elephant in the room, it’s hard not to look at what they have done and be jealous and for them to be who we ought to try to be and be better than. The development of their guys into monsters is incredible and NCAA success has followed. Cael, Pennsylvania and a very large supportive fan base are big reasons but it’s hard not to look at their RTC and see that as the difference between them and everyone else.

I guess the big difference between us is I don't see a development issue at Oklahoma State. To me our guys develop pretty well (no one shoots 100%). To me the biggest issue has been the starting point of that development. We simply weren't recruiting at the level we needed to for a long time. That has changed drastically.

 

[tim73034]

So.. its your contention that the teams that are beating Ok State are doing so because they are getting the better recruits? What is the criteria for "better recruits"? We can disagree to disagree... Iowa won 9 in a row because Gable figured out who to recruit and it wasn't always the 5 star guys, he picked the guys he felt repport with and were ready to respond to his style of coaching and trusted him enough to walk up stairs on their hands and carry people up endless flights of stairs if it meant they were going to win.. Sanderson has a eye for who he wants to recruit.. Brands does as well.. Those programs not only pick the right people for their program, they has a system in place to push guys to the next level.. I believe there are 2 ways to improve in wrestling.. #1 way is a guy is talented and motivated and natural development takes them to a certain point.. #2 is forced development, meaning you put Johnny hendricks in the room everyday with Tyrone and Pendalton, plus pat smith and mark branch and he is forced to jump levels in order to survive.. It seems to me that we have plenty of guys in category one, they work their asses off and end up getting AA.. It doesnt seem like we have the infrastructure to engage guys into forced development because we dont have enough guys in the room to be the catalyst for that growth.. The program has allowed too many guys who could help our guys make the jump move to other places and coach at other programs.. coach Smith has a very unique mentality and the way he accomplished what he did doesnt appeal to everyone.. just my opinion.

 

[osu2082]

I guess the big difference between us is I don't see a development issue at Oklahoma State. To me our guys develop pretty well (no one shoots 100%). To me the biggest issue has been the starting point of that development. We simply weren't recruiting at the level we needed to for a long time. That has changed drastically.

Agreed that a dip in recruiting played a role. I don’t think we have (or at least had) the setup to develop guys in the same vein as PSU.

We missed on to many guys and failed to turn to many of our true blue chip recruits into multiple NC contenders. I want to be careful as a bunch of these guys came in a busted their tail in representing our program in a great way and accomplished great things but if we are looking at competing for NC’s and trying to match the development of our peers (namely PSU) the criteria is much tougher and more cutthroat

D Bailey
A Meade
J Morrison
J Rogers
A Collica
R Blees
C Marstellar
C Rogers
J Smith
K Brock
K Moore
K Gfeller

All are guys who came in as blue chip type prospects who to various degrees did not have the career most hoped.

 

[turfpoke]

Agreed that a dip in recruiting played a role. I don’t think we have (or at least had) the setup to develop guys in the same vein as PSU.

We missed on to many guys and failed to turn to many of our true blue chip recruits into multiple NC contenders. I want to be careful as a bunch of these guys came in a busted their tail in representing our program in a great way and accomplished great things but if we are looking at competing for NC’s and trying to match the development of our peers (namely PSU) the criteria is much tougher and more cutthroat

D Bailey
A Meade
J Morrison
J Rogers
A Collica
R Blees
C Marstellar
C Rogers
J Smith
K Brock
K Moore
K Gfeller

All are guys who came in as blue chip type prospects who to various degrees did not have the career most hoped.

Chance Marsteller and Jordan Rogers or Daton Fix and AJ Ferrari?

All very high recruits. All guys we were extremely excited to get. 2 of them have scored the team points required to hang banners.

 

[turfpoke]

Here is why I am excited for the next few years.
Proven big time points- AJ and Fix both with 3+ years of eligibility.
Wittlake- top 4 and improving, 3 years of eligibility remaining.
Plott- we shall see, but top recruit and appears to have NC work ethic. 4 years remaining.
Sheets- I believe has 2 more years, possibly 3. We know his DNA.
Geer- this year remaining, top 5 guy. Lots of bonus.
Gfellar has the talent. Can we get it out of him? 3 years left?
Is Carter Young NC ready? Freestyle results say he is.
How good is Surber at HWT? I’m not expecting him in the top 4. Can he be Top 6 next year?
If one of the Mastrogiovanni brothers is a stud, we are set. Plus the other high level recruits we have coming.

 

[tom_v31]

OhSt has high level college coaches as well. The RTC coaches are additional coaches and drilling partners.

No question everyone is chasing PSU but to discount the additional coaching and training the other programs with RTCs have and the advantage that provides is silly.

They definitely have a good situation

 

[tom_v31]

Stieber, Jaggers and Jordan are the main coaches for both the RTC and the college programs. I think they have some additional Greco coaches but Stieber, Jaggers and Jordan are the core of both programs. From a coaching perspective it isn't vastly different than our setup. Kids that go to Ohio State aren't getting additional coaching from the RTC really. It is all the same guys (unless they are Greco).

We need more senior level guys in the room period. If someone wrote a check and tomorrow Oliver, AD and White where back in Stillwater I would be ecstatic. I'm just past the point of caring if it is an RTC or just dudes in the room.

Yeah, you can only be upset so much, especially if it is out of your control. At a certain point, you’re either a fan or you’re not. OSU will be fine and I’m sure John and team will continue to pull magic out of a hat. Ho pokes

 

[tom_v31]

Yeah, you can only be upset so much, especially if it is out of your control. At a certain point, you’re either a fan or you’re not. OSU will be fine and I’m sure John and team will continue to pull magic out of a hat. Ho pokes

Go pokes

I guess the big difference between us is I don't see a development issue at Oklahoma State. To me our guys develop pretty well (no one shoots 100%). To me the biggest issue has been the starting point of that development. We simply weren't recruiting at the level we needed to for a long time. That has changed drastically.

That is a good point

 

[Air_Thurman]

Agreed that a dip in recruiting played a role. I don’t think we have (or at least had) the setup to develop guys in the same vein as PSU.

We missed on to many guys and failed to turn to many of our true blue chip recruits into multiple NC contenders. I want to be careful as a bunch of these guys came in a busted their tail in representing our program in a great way and accomplished great things but if we are looking at competing for NC’s and trying to match the development of our peers (namely PSU) the criteria is much tougher and more cutthroat

D Bailey
A Meade
J Morrison
J Rogers
A Collica
R Blees
C Marstellar
C Rogers
J Smith
K Brock
K Moore
K Gfeller

All are guys who came in as blue chip type prospects who to various degrees did not have the career most hoped.

I mean you are going back a over decade. Over the past decade you can find a similar list of guys at just about any school, even Penn State. The difference is Penn State got 3 times as many blue chippers so they can have that many kids not live up to expectations and they are fine. Even then a good number of these guys fell short of their recruiting expectations and it had nothing to do with coaching or development. You really think Gfeller’s struggles are because our coaches can’t develop him?

That being said if Collica is an example of failed development we just have different expectations at what is good development for a kid.

 

[osu2082]

I mean you are going back a over decade. Over the past decade you can find a similar list of guys at just about any school, even Penn State. The difference is Penn State got 3 times as many blue chippers so they can have that many kids not live up to expectations and they are fine. Even then a good number of these guys fell short of their recruiting expectations and it had nothing to do with coaching or development. You really think Gfeller’s struggles are because our coaches can’t develop him?

That being said if Collica is an example of failed development we just have different expectations at what is good development for a kid.

Very good points. In a sport with limited scholarship money and at OSU where true high end blue chippers have been in somewhat small numbers over the years outside of the last few, that is a pretty sizable and relevant list.

Now I am all in on the excitement and hope with the level of talent we have attached the last several years and am optimistic that the totality of talent in the room will really help the development.

Collica is a good example and case study. He was a blue chip recruit (2x Fargo champ and top ranked kid). He comes here and ends up as a one time All American. We need to be able to take recruits like him and turn them into multiple time AA’s and push them for contention for NC’s. That’s what PSU has been able to do with much more consistency.

 

[turfpoke]

Did Collica go is as like the 2 seed his last season and get a concussion or something? I felt for him, he had NC work ethic and skills.

 

[Wrassler17]

Collica did get concussed before nationals his senior year and then didn't place. He was having a great year before that, including beating Sorensen in the dual.

He was a team first guy too. Went 152 as a HS senior, but was asked to cut to 141 as a true frosh when Feikert was struggling. As a true soph he was asked to bump up to 157 when Mastellar was struggling. Finished R12 both years. I think his career would look a lot different if he had redshirted and then gone 149 for 4 years (and stayed healthy).

 

[Wrassler17]

The development of blue chip recruits is an interesting topic. I read somewhere that PSU is 40-5 in the NCAA semifinals over the past 10 years. That is absurd. They are 33-0 when the higher seed - incredible.

6 years from now, who will we say had the better career? AJ or Brooks, Wittlake or Facundo, Plott or Starocci, Young or Bartlett, Voinovich or Van Ness. Developing our blue chippers is going to be key.

 

[turfpoke]

The development of blue chip recruits is an interesting topic. I read somewhere that PSU is 40-5 in the NCAA semifinals over the past 10 years. That is absurd. They are 33-0 when the higher seed - incredible.

6 years from now, who will we say had the better career? AJ or Brooks, Wittlake or Facundo, Plott or Starocci, Young or Bartlett, Voinovich or Van Ness. Developing our blue chippers is going to be key.

That is pretty tough to compete with. Hopefully that well runs dry soon.

 

[Wrassler17]

That is pretty tough to compete with. Hopefully that well runs dry soon.

And not to be outdone...we have developed a true freshman national champ, a HS national team member, and a college senior world medalist. No other program can claim that and we did it in just the past year.

 

[MiccoMacey]

I think the “NCAA will rule against RTCs and will make an example out of us” isn’t a very well thought out argument. Maybe the “they’ll come after OSU first” part, but they’re not coming after anybody.

RTCs are such a huge way of wrestling now. There are way too many programs with them, and they are at a minimum tacitly approved by the NCAA. It’s not like RTCs are under the radar and they don’t know about them. This is from USAWrestling’s website:

“A key focus is to raise the relevancy of wrestling on college campuses. Within NCAA rules, RTCs provide additional opportunities for college coaches to further develop and enhance their individual program. This cooperative effort strengthens the connection between the Olympic Movement and college athletics.”

Everything about that statement says the NCAA knows about, approves of, and works with USAWrestling toward RTCs.

The NCAA couldn’t now come out and rule against ALL the universities they’ve allowed to sponsor these training centers.

it’s a silly argument to me.

 

[Wrassler17]

This is from USAWrestling’s website:

“A key focus is to raise the relevancy of wrestling on college campuses. Within NCAA rules, RTCs provide additional opportunities for college coaches to further develop and enhance their individual program. This cooperative effort strengthens the connection between the Olympic Movement and college athletics.”

Everything about that statement says the NCAA knows about, approves of, and works with USAWrestling toward RTCs.

I'm sure the NCAA knows about RTCs, but not sure about the "approves of" and "works with" USAW. I don't think there's a collaborative effort between the two. I read the "Within NCAA rules" snippet as meaning "Provided they follow NCAA rules" not "They are within NCAA rules".

Remember a couple of years ago several coaches complained there were no RTC rules at all? And no oversight? Bono called it the wild wild west. As a result, USAW was forced to finally put some rules in place, including that college guys could not be paid. To me that indicates the NCAA is not involved.