Trump/Affirmative Action

[Been Jammin]

Curious what everyone thinks about this move (assuming it is true).

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/us/politics/trump-affirmative-action-universities.html

Personally, when I first heard the story, I rolled my lib eyes and thought, "sounds like a typical Trump move".

Then, a couple of other thoughts occurred to me. I wondered if this is really a true plan on his part, or if he is bringing it up to distract the media/public from something else (which it seems like he might have been doing with his announcement to ban transgenders from the military).

Then, I thought about something else. My daughter will be heading off to college in a few weeks. Her first choice of destinations was Vanderbilt, but she did not get in. A classmate of hers was accepted. My daughter was ranked significantly higher in her graduating class and had better SAT scores. My daughter had significantly more activities/accomplishments on her resume. But, her classmate is black. Obviously, we have no way of knowing if that affected Vanderbilt's decision to accept the other young lady and to reject my daughter, but it is a reasonable explanation. I'm pretty sure my daughter understands, and is OK with it.

I understand the reasons behind Affirmative Action, and think that it is a good thing, for the most part. But, I'm not sure that it is not taken to an extreme, or that it is "right" and "fair".

 

[GL97]

Curious what everyone thinks about this move (assuming it is true).

I think it would be a misuse of the DOJ civil rights division. Not surprising though with Trump and Sessions running the show at the moment.

As for affirmative action, I fully understand the concerns some express about it. And the Supreme Court, I believe, is right to have rejected race based quotas and the like. However, it is a common good to ensure a diverse student body at Universities in light of our nation's history as it relates to the oppression of racial minorities.

As the article noted, how we go about that can be murky, but it is still important.

 

[CBradSmith]

Curious what everyone thinks about this move (assuming it is true).

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/us/politics/trump-affirmative-action-universities.html

Personally, when I first heard the story, I rolled my lib eyes and thought, "sounds like a typical Trump move".

Then, a couple of other thoughts occurred to me. I wondered if this is really a true plan on his part, or if he is bringing it up to distract the media/public from something else (which it seems like he might have been doing with his announcement to ban transgenders from the military).

Then, I thought about something else. My daughter will be heading off to college in a few weeks. Her first choice of destinations was Vanderbilt, but she did not get in. A classmate of hers was accepted. My daughter was ranked significantly higher in her graduating class and had better SAT scores. My daughter had significantly more activities/accomplishments on her resume. But, her classmate is black. Obviously, we have no way of knowing if that affected Vanderbilt's decision to accept the other young lady and to reject my daughter, but it is a reasonable explanation. I'm pretty sure my daughter understands, and is OK with it.

I understand the reasons behind Affirmative Action, and think that it is a good thing, for the most part. But, I'm not sure that it is not taken to an extreme, or that it is "right" and "fair".

Good introspection on your part. With analysis and self-analysis like that, I would have no doubt that in time you and I share several positions.

The desired outcome of several liberal ideas is good. But when the rubber meets the road they have unintended consequences that are not sustainable or end up doing greater harm. ( this is a statement about liberal ideas in general, not specifically affirmative action, though it is very likely that your daughter has experienced some of those unintended, detrimental consequences due to it).

 

[Medic007]

Curious what everyone thinks about this move (assuming it is true).

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/us/politics/trump-affirmative-action-universities.html

Personally, when I first heard the story, I rolled my lib eyes and thought, "sounds like a typical Trump move".

Then, a couple of other thoughts occurred to me. I wondered if this is really a true plan on his part, or if he is bringing it up to distract the media/public from something else (which it seems like he might have been doing with his announcement to ban transgenders from the military).

Then, I thought about something else. My daughter will be heading off to college in a few weeks. Her first choice of destinations was Vanderbilt, but she did not get in. A classmate of hers was accepted. My daughter was ranked significantly higher in her graduating class and had better SAT scores. My daughter had significantly more activities/accomplishments on her resume. But, her classmate is black. Obviously, we have no way of knowing if that affected Vanderbilt's decision to accept the other young lady and to reject my daughter, but it is a reasonable explanation. I'm pretty sure my daughter understands, and is OK with it.

I understand the reasons behind Affirmative Action, and think that it is a good thing, for the most part. But, I'm not sure that it is not taken to an extreme, or that it is "right" and "fair".

Affirmative action was never meant to be "fair" or "right." It's sole intention was legalized discrimination against the majority (white folks) in favor of minorities to "correct" or provide "reparations" for past discriminations, real or perceived. You and your daughter should be furious if the decision was based on race. Discrimination against anyone isn't okay or right by any stretch, even if the person is white, religious, and straight.

 

[GL97]

I wondered if this is really a true plan on his part, or if he is bringing it up to distract the media/public from something else

It could be both.

No reason to suspect it isn't a true plan but sure, the White House could be pushing it out to distract the media (and make their base happy).

Time will tell how much emphasis they actually put behind the program.

 

[GL97]

It's sole intention was legalized discrimination against the majority (white folks) in favor of minorities to "correct" or provide "reparations" for past discriminations, real or perceived.

This is false (the intent claim) and ignores the reality that many Americans have faced and continue to face simply because of their race.

You and your daughter should be furious if the decision was based on race.

We don't know that it was based upon race though. That is an assumption. And honestly, questioning why a "black" student got in over a "white" student when one assumes the white student is more qualified illustrates the problems we still face with race in this country (even from decent well-meaning Americans).

 

[JohnVoight]

Affirmative Action is a euphemism for legalized discrimination. Sounds like your daughter didn't benefit so much from government-enforced diversity Been Jammin.

 

[Alpha Poke]

Curious what everyone thinks about this move (assuming it is true).

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/us/politics/trump-affirmative-action-universities.html

Personally, when I first heard the story, I rolled my lib eyes and thought, "sounds like a typical Trump move".

Then, a couple of other thoughts occurred to me. I wondered if this is really a true plan on his part, or if he is bringing it up to distract the media/public from something else (which it seems like he might have been doing with his announcement to ban transgenders from the military).

Then, I thought about something else. My daughter will be heading off to college in a few weeks. Her first choice of destinations was Vanderbilt, but she did not get in. A classmate of hers was accepted. My daughter was ranked significantly higher in her graduating class and had better SAT scores. My daughter had significantly more activities/accomplishments on her resume. But, her classmate is black. Obviously, we have no way of knowing if that affected Vanderbilt's decision to accept the other young lady and to reject my daughter, but it is a reasonable explanation. I'm pretty sure my daughter understands, and is OK with it.

I understand the reasons behind Affirmative Action, and think that it is a good thing, for the most part. But, I'm not sure that it is not taken to an extreme, or that it is "right" and "fair".

That last sentence is gold.

 

[Been Jammin]

Affirmative Action is a euphemism for legalized discrimination. Sounds like your daughter didn't benefit so much from government-enforced diversity Been Jammin.

To be fair....

I don't know the other girl. My daughter is friendly with her, but not friends.

We can't rule out the possibility that she had something on her resume that knocked their socks off (that my daughter is not aware of). Maybe she created a homeless shelter by raising money on Kickstarter.

Vanderbilt is one of the most competitive universities in the country, when looking at number of applicants and percentage of applicants accepted. IMO, they have way more qualified applicants than spots and the other young lady had a high enough GPA/SAT score that she met the qualifications. There are other explanations for her acceptance than attributing it to affirmative action. For all I know, they could have drawn names at random.

In the end, my daughter ended up in a very good situation (Tulane Honors Program with a very generous scholarship). I think it is actually a better fit for her than Vandy, for multiple reasons. Everything happens for a reason.

 

[OKSTATE1]

This is false (the intent claim) and ignores the reality that many Americans have faced and continue to face simply because of their race.



We don't know that it was based upon race though. That is an assumption. And honestly, questioning why a "black" student got in over my "white" child when I think my white child is more qualified illustrates the problems we still face with race in this country (even from decent well-meaning Americans).

Without affirmative action would Been even be questioning why this student was chosen, assuming she was still chosen. Possibly, but may be not to the same extent when you now have affirmative action in place, what is bad about the law it creates the perception that African Americans are not achieving certain things based on merit but by law and unfortunately that perception issue does not help the situation. So is Been raising this "illustrates the problem" or is it the law itself that raises the suspicion?

With all the white hate today, if it shifts too far to the other side on the discriminatory color scale, who is going to protect caucasions? It is a fair question if you truly believe in no discrimination regardless of race, etc....

At some point you would think society would progress to the point these laws are no longer needed, so will they ever come off the books? If not, we have lifetime discrimination against caucasions?

I do not have all the answers or solutions, mainly questions, tough issue for sure. Best solution is to have people in leadership positions that do not see race and let them apply the admission policies fairly.

 

[GL97]

To be fair....

I don't know the other girl. My daughter is friendly with her, but not friends.

We can't rule out the possibility that she had something on her resume that knocked their socks off (that my daughter is not aware of). Maybe she created a homeless shelter by raising money on Kickstarter.

Vanderbilt is one of the most competitive universities in the country, when looking at number of applicants and percentage of applicants accepted. IMO, they have way more qualified applicants than spots and the other young lady had a high enough GPA/SAT score that she met the qualifications. There are other explanations for her acceptance than attributing it to affirmative action. For all I know, they could have drawn names at random.

In the end, my daughter ended up in a very good situation (Tulane Honors Program with a very generous scholarship). I think it is actually a better fit for her than Vandy, for multiple reasons. Everything happens for a reason.

Well said.

btw, congratulations to your daughter. Those are some great accomplishments, I am sure you are a proud dad!

 

[GL97]

So is Been raising this "illustrates the problem" or is it the law itself that raises the suspicion?

I think the policy reflects reality. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need such policies. We don't live in a perfect world though.

At some point you would think society would progress to the point these laws are no longer needed, so will they ever come off the books?

Yes, that is the goal. And there has been some progression regarding racial issues in this country (thankfully). We still have a ways to go though.

 

[squeak]

Curious what everyone thinks about this move (assuming it is true).

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/us/politics/trump-affirmative-action-universities.html

Personally, when I first heard the story, I rolled my lib eyes and thought, "sounds like a typical Trump move".

Then, a couple of other thoughts occurred to me. I wondered if this is really a true plan on his part, or if he is bringing it up to distract the media/public from something else (which it seems like he might have been doing with his announcement to ban transgenders from the military).

Then, I thought about something else. My daughter will be heading off to college in a few weeks. Her first choice of destinations was Vanderbilt, but she did not get in. A classmate of hers was accepted. My daughter was ranked significantly higher in her graduating class and had better SAT scores. My daughter had significantly more activities/accomplishments on her resume. But, her classmate is black. Obviously, we have no way of knowing if that affected Vanderbilt's decision to accept the other young lady and to reject my daughter, but it is a reasonable explanation. I'm pretty sure my daughter understands, and is OK with it.

I understand the reasons behind Affirmative Action, and think that it is a good thing, for the most part. But, I'm not sure that it is not taken to an extreme, or that it is "right" and "fair".

Racist.



Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

 

[N. Pappagiorgio]

Race is a certainly a factor in law school admissions.

 

[cableok]

Affirmative Action was a policy that was needed ... at one time. That time has long passed.

We should not be supporting anything that negatively affects a person based on race. And affirmative action does that.

The article specifies that Trump directive is for "investigations and possible litigation related to intentional race-based discrimination in college and university admissions.” Everyone who values equality should be in favor of that.

 

[Ostatedchi]

You don't cure racism by being racist in the opposite direction. Just as you don't fight terrorists with the same tactics they use. Otherwise you become what you are fighting against in the first place.

 

[Medic007]

This is false (the intent claim) and ignores the reality that many Americans have faced and continue to face simply because of their race.

Nope. It isn't. Affirmative action was designed to give preferential treatment to minorities even if they had less qualification. Go look up affirmative action and get back to me rookie.

We don't know that it was based upon race though. That is an assumption.

Exactly why I said that they should be pissed if it was based on race. Do you strive to idiot every single day or just the days you bless us with your idiotness on this board, "counselor?"

 

[Medic007]

To be fair....

I don't know the other girl. My daughter is friendly with her, but not friends.

We can't rule out the possibility that she had something on her resume that knocked their socks off (that my daughter is not aware of). Maybe she created a homeless shelter by raising money on Kickstarter.

Vanderbilt is one of the most competitive universities in the country, when looking at number of applicants and percentage of applicants accepted. IMO, they have way more qualified applicants than spots and the other young lady had a high enough GPA/SAT score that she met the qualifications. There are other explanations for her acceptance than attributing it to affirmative action. For all I know, they could have drawn names at random.

In the end, my daughter ended up in a very good situation (Tulane Honors Program with a very generous scholarship). I think it is actually a better fit for her than Vandy, for multiple reasons. Everything happens for a reason.

Good to hear Been. You should be a very very proud father. No doubt you've helped set her up for success with excellent parenting. Congrats to you both (and your wife/baby momma)!

 

[GL97]

You don't cure racism by being racist in the opposite direction.

The goal of affirmative action policies (stretching all the way back to FDR) was not to be "racist in the other direction." Instead, it was to combat discrimination (in education and employment) by providing access and special consideration to disadvantaged minority groups. And affirmative action has been very successful at moving us towards this goal. Look at the improvements we have seen!

I often wonder if some Americans forget where we have come from as a nation over the past fifty or so years. There is a reason for the progress we have seen.

 

[cableok]

Besides being a policy against equality, Affirmative Action also perpetuates racism.

Been's daughter is about the same age as mine. I bet, like my daughter, she doesn't have a racist bone in her body. However, situations like this shine a spotlight on unequal treatment based solely on race.
Less mature young people may evolve from being non-racist at all to something negative.

 

[GL97]

Nope. It isn't. Affirmative action was designed to give preferential treatment to minorities even if they had less qualification. Go look up affirmative action and get back to me rookie.

You posted originally that the "sole intention" of affirmative action was to legalize "discrimination against the majority (white folks)."

That statement is incorrect. The sole intent of those who proposed and enacted affirmative action policies (many of whom were white themselves) was not to legalize discrimination against white folks. Such a statement is foolishness.

 

[GL97]

Affirmative Action also perpetuates racism.

Affirmative action policies have been successful though (even those who want affirmative action policies to end routinely admit this). So how do they perpetuate racism when we have actually seen progress against racism in educational and employment venues?

Less mature young people may evolve from being non-racist at all to something negative.

I think the younger generations often better understand these issues than some within the older generations. They are more removed from the original passions and/or prejudices.

 

[Ponca Dan]

You mean affirmative action like this?

 

[JohnVoight]

I often wonder if some Americans forget where we have come from as a nation over the past fifty or so years. There is a reason for the progress we have seen.

We've come from the civil rights movement to talk of reparations, white privilege, identity politics, and a purposeful blurring of the lines between legal vs. illegal immigration. There is a reason America is arguably divided as ever.

 

[OKSTATE1]

You posted originally that the "sole intention" of affirmative action was to legalize "discrimination against the majority (white folks)."

That statement is incorrect. The sole intent of those who proposed and enacted affirmative action policies (many of whom were white themselves) was not to legalize discrimination against white folks. Such a statement is foolishness.

You are splitting hairs. It certainly is a form of legalized discrimination, you are living in a dream world. I worked at a Fortune 500 company thru the 80's, 90's, early 00's, and we were forced to hire far less qualified minorities to meet quotas.

The biggest problem I saw? Is that regardless under what circumstances you hired a minority, once you hired them you were never allowed to fire if they were doing a horrible job. Many knew they were "protected" and would call you racist to your face for writing them up, despite the fact you give them 5 more freebies than the Caucasian.

When you work in an environment that literally you NEED every person to be productive, you are less likely to want to hire a minority and take the risk they are not going to work out if you can not terminate them. It also means you hire a minority in a second it they are the most qualified.

I knew of not one hiring manager that was racist, they needed the best help to survive, that eliminates discrimination when competition is that fierce. The biggest hurdle is if you are going to be an equal opportunity employer, you need to be an equal opportunity terminator.

At one time the head of the HR dept at this Fortune 500 Company was African American and I knew him well and we got along extremely well. We use to have some very honest and open discussions about hiring and equal opportunity. I told him what the real fear was in hiring minorities within the company, it was not hiring minorities, it was the ability to replace them if they did not work out, he told me I was crazy. It took about a year and half of documentation to release an African American for poor performance while Caucasions were let go either immediately or a max 6 month process.

We do not have nearly as many racists in our society as we once did. We do have policies in place and how Corporations carry out affirmative action creating large problems.

So, I laugh when I hear these young kids today saying I had a white privilege card, I would sure like to see it. I got passed up by African Americans less qualified, and I hired minorities far less qualified than white candidates. I bought in to it for a long time, but today the feeling is almost all blacks and to some degree now due to white shaming even some whites, assume all whites are racist, especially if you are older. This angers me beyond belief, could not be further from the truth. One of my best friends growing up was black and our families shared time together, and I was exposed to some racism from that experience. But by far the most discrimination I have ever witnessed in my life was against white people in the work place, and frankly I was a willing participant. My views on this issue has changed from a religious and proper thing to do kind of naiveness, to an experienced and practical perspective that your color does not define your ability to be racist, and within EVERY race, some will try to achieve some sort of advantage for their race and I do believe that number is fewer. My personal opinion is also the minorities have not wielded their advantages under the law responsibly and it appears has zero appreciation for a huge number of white people that have gone out of their way to help them obtain equality within society and today stab them in the back.

My last 2 years at the Fortune 500 company I hired the best person for the job, regardless of race, I will do that until I die. What I saw did not work all that well and just created more problems within the department and in the relationships between white's and black's when you clearly had serious unequal hiring and work place rules between the races.

 

[GL97]

We've come from the civil rights movement.

I was speaking of where we have came from in terms of how minorities were treated.

There is a reason America is arguably divided as ever.

As divided as America was in 1861-1865? I don't think so.

Americas are always divided over politics and the like. That is the nature of a free society. We aren't fighting a civil war though, thank goodness!

 

[wyomingosualum]

Once upon a time, there were two young police officers that worked together, Officer Black and Officer White.

One day, these two officers were at the firing range. During a break, Officer White took a seat on the couch and closed his eyes for a moment. Officer Black walked into the room with a Glock 9mm pistol in his hand. Officer White remembered hearing the action of Officer Black's gun cycle, nothing unusual at a firing range.

Shortly thereafter, a loud BANG occurred, scaring the shit out of Officer White, who opened his eyes to see Officer Black with his gun in his hand. Officer Black had just accidentally shot himself in the chin. The bullet began its path of destruction under Officer Black's chin, traveling upward and exited Officer Black's mouth. His chin and mouth were flapped open, with salivary glands secreting at full blast mixed with blood, creating a bloody druel that clung to and hung from Officer Black's chin. Officer Black had to be looking upward at an extreme angle to do this without killing himself. It was one of the most strangest things Officer White had ever seen.

Officer Black was off work for a few months and had to have several surgeries to fix the damage, but he returned to work in pretty good shape. It was good to have him back.

A few weeks later, Officer Black made a U turn to chase down a speeder. The speeder made it through the traffic signal before it turned red. Officer Black did not. Officer Black continued to pursue the speeder through the red light as cross traffic had a green light and had started to proceed. The first car in th line of cross traffic was another patrol car. WHAM! Officer Black's car creamed the other patrol car. Both officers were sent to the hospital and both cars were totaled.

Meanwhile, Officer White showed up for work every day. Officer White's specialty was recovering stolen vehicles and arresting the drivers. And burglars. Officer White loved to arrest burglars. The point is that Officer White had an excellent work record and didn't waste time writing chickenshit traffic tickets. He busied himself making good arrests of people who were truly bad guys. Officer Black simply answered the calls that were assigned to him from dispatch and had few arrests that required him to begin an investigation by his own initiative.

One day, a police department in a neighboring city was hiring and the starting pay was enough to lure both Officer Black and Officer White to apply. There had been talk among the ranks that there was a big push to hire minority officers, but Officer White decided to apply anyway.

Only one of these two officers was hired. It was the officer who had very few felony arrests and had literally shot his mouth off. Yeah, that guy got the job.

Opinions will vary regarding affirmative action. If you ask Officer White, he will tell you that he appreciates the good intentions of those who embrace such programs, but disagrees when something as shallow as skin pigmentation is the deciding factor on who gets a job.

 

[GL97]

and we were forced to hire far less qualified minorities to meet quotas.

I am not talking about quotas, I am talking about affirmative action. Two different issues.

The Supreme Court in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke held that specific racial quotas were unconstitutional. And I agree with that ruling and it should be enforced by the lower courts consistently.

I don't disagree with your objection to specific racial quotas.

 

[ThorOdinson13]

Asians are the racial group most negatively affected by affirmative action.

 

[GL97]

So, I laugh when I hear these young kids today saying I had a white privilege card, I would sure like to see it.

I do believe there is a built in white privilege for many white Americans (not all though). This goes along with a socioeconomic privilege that also exists. Some people experience these privileges without even knowing they are experiencing them because they are a part of the fabric of our society that has developed over the years.

but today the feeling is almost all blacks and to some degree now due to white shaming even some whites, assume all whites are racist, especially if you are older.

White shaming?

I disagree that "almost all blacks" assume all whites are racist. And as a white liberal who supports affirmative action and understands what is meant by white privilege, I am not ashamed to be white nor do I believe all whites or older whites are racist.

 

[cableok]

Affirmative action policies have been successful though (even those who want affirmative action policies to end routinely admit this). So how do they perpetuate racism when we have actually seen progress against racism in educational and employment venues?



I think the younger generations often better understand these issues than some within the older generations. They are more removed from the original passions and/or prejudices.

My first post stated that Affirmation Action was a policy that was needed at the time. We simply do not live in the times 60 years ago and have a myriad of laws that protect people from discrimation. Furthermore, specific discrimination does not occur at near the levels as more than a half century ago.

Affirmative Action by its inherent nature places a race above another. Or provides more opportunity for a race above another. Or gives more value for one race above another.

Rightly so people view this as unfair.

There is no doubt in my mind that the playing fields are not level for education due to economic and family situations. We help those with less financial support through need based scholarships. But I don't see any evidence that due to the color of ones skin that the education playing field is not balanced. Can you provide any examples?
If skin color does not change the playing field, why should educational opportunities be easier based on race?

 

[GL97]

Furthermore, specific discrimination does not occur at near the levels as more than a half century ago.

I agree, but it still does occur not to mention the built-in disadvantages that still have yet to be resolved.

Affirmative Action by its inherent nature places a race above another. Or provides more opportunity for a race above another. Or gives more value for one race above another.

This is how those who oppose affirmative action view it. However, others view affirmative action as seeking to provide access to disadvantaged minority groups where access has been denied or would otherwise be denied simply because of their minority status. It seeks to address a disadvantage.

And I don't disagree that some people feel affirmative action is somehow unfair. However, many people believe it is fair. It all goes back to one's presuppositions.

But I don't see any evidence that due to the color of ones skin that the education playing field is not balanced. Can you provide any examples?

Sure, consider the gap in educational attainment that still exists. There are a number of factors that contribute to this, but the gap is just one reason why affirmative action policies should remain.

nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2016007

 

[JohnVoight]

This is how those who oppose affirmative action view it. However, what affirmative action seeks to do is provide access to disadvantaged minority groups where access has been denied or would otherwise be denied simply because of their minority status.

A well intentioned policy when originally implemented, no doubt. Another way of saying that in 2017 though is "What affirmative action accomplishes is providing racial preference to minority groups with comparatively lower test scores who would otherwise have been denied because of their comparatively lower test scores."

 

[cableok]

I agree, but it still does occur not to mention the built-in disadvantages that still have yet to be resolved.



This is how those who oppose affirmative action view it. However, others view affirmative action as seeking to provide access to disadvantaged minority groups where access has been denied or would otherwise be denied simply because of their minority status. It seeks to address a disadvantage.

And I don't disagree that some people feel affirmative action is somehow unfair. However, many people believe it is fair. It all goes back to one's presuppositions.



Sure, consider the gap in educational attainment that still exists. There are a number of factors that contribute to this, but the gap is just one reason why affirmative action policies should remain.

nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2016007

Thank you for the link. For some reason I can't open it on my tablet. I will attempt to read it later.

But am I correct in stating that it shows educational gaps among races? I don't dispute that, but I strongly believe that race is NOT the root cause. Studies like these show gaps in educational opportunities and look at one variable and conclude, or imply, race is the reason. The reason for educational gaps are economic and family status. Lower income children and children from 1 or no-parent families score lower on standardized test scores and achieve lower grades. The color of ones skin is not the reason.

So let's not try to solve a problem that is not there. Skin color is not a deterrent for college acceptance. Skin color is not a problem for lower test scores. Affirmative Action that prescribes approval for lower achievement due to race creates racial inequity when there is not.
We need to be more surgical solving educational opportunities and leveling the playing field. Affirmative Action does not and in fact creates an uneven playing field.

 

[GL97]

Another way of saying that in 2017 though is "What affirmative action accomplishes is providing racial preference to minority groups with comparatively lower test scores who would otherwise have been denied because of their comparatively lower test scores."

Affirmative action does not always do this though nor is test scores the sole criteria in college admissions.

 

[GL97]

But am I correct in stating that it shows educational gaps among races?

Yes.

I don't dispute that, but I strongly believe that race is NOT the root cause..The reason for educational gaps are economic and family status

I don't disagree with you that there are a number of factors that create the educational gap. However, one must also understand that the historical and current disadvantages faced by minority groups have an influence on economic and family status, as well as other areas. This is what you apparently fail to acknowledge.

So let's not try to solve a problem that is not there.

But the problem is there. Turning a blind eye to the problem simply because things are getting better or because one wants to deny the disadvantages that exist isn't going to help us continue to improve in these areas.

We have seen progress because of these policies. Disadvantages still exist that need to be overcome. We shouldn't stop midstream.

 

[NZ Poke]

 

[cableok]

Yes.
I don't disagree with you that there are a number of factors that create the educational gap. However, one must also understand that the historical and current disadvantages faced by minority groups have an influence on economic and family status, as well as other areas. This is what you apparently fail to acknowledge.

But the problem is there. Turning a blind eye to the problem simply because things are getting better or because one wants to deny the disadvantages that exist isn't going to help us continue to improve in these areas.
We have seen progress because of these policies. Disadvantages still exist that need to be overcome. We shouldn't stop midstream.

This is where I strongly disagree with you. And I believe those that believe like you are causing racism.

Why solve a problem that you admit is economic and family status based but instead of targeting that variable you switch the variable and utilize race, instead?? It makes no sense and it is incredibly unfair.

I am all for looking at solutions at the root cause. Solution like free 2-year college at Tulsa Community College for lower income students (it is a great idea and one that was recently implemented). Scholarships that give strong preference to economically needy students (great solution and we need more). Charter schools to lift students out of low performing high schools (another great idea that helps thousands of young people).

 

[OKSTATE1]

You want to make a real impact in the lives of minorities educational opportunities, here is what needs to be fixed:

- Violence and drugs in minority communities
- Eliminating teen pregnancy
- Programs to teach young minorities that grow up in dysfunctional families or families with no father, what a healthy family is and looks like, what roles parents play and their responsibilities, and most of all teaching young boys to respect women and that early pregnancy can mean a lifetime sentence to poverty, I would support the government creating help centers to get the parenting and leadership skills young minorities needed to break the cycle of poverty, those would be good tax dollars IMO and far better than Affirmative Action.
- Fixing inner city schools and making them safe, education is a privilege and not a right and thugs should be kicked out, period. We can't do that because it means more thugs in jail which makes us racist or so we are told, but it is thugs holding back the minority youth that want to do the right things. Minority on minority crime is a huge problem, and its schooling is in the high schools.
- Minority leadership needs to publicly shame the thug lifestyle and the music that makes women sex objects and uses racial slurs on its own race, and to speak out on racism of all forms
- The above list would be a good start and affirmative action addresses none of the above issues, upbringing is holding these kids back and it is a shame, minority community needs to take ownership of this problem, especially young black men that father babies and never support their kid and could careless about education.

Minority communities need to produce more college able and ready candidates, affirmative action is just addressing the symptoms. All of the above is creating fewer opportunities for minorities than all the racists in the US combined in my opinion. But it is easy to point the finger at the white community and play the race card, that is how I feel right now. Minority community really good at telling us what we need to do to make things "right", but from where I sit, not enough minority leaders are speaking to truth and the tough love that is needed to create generational change in their own communities.

The thing is, the formula above also applies to those in the white community that are in poverty as well. Difference is the poor white community does not expect affirmative action, nor do any minorities care about white people living in poverty.

 

[cableok]

I do believe there is a built in white privilege for many white Americans (not all though)
White shaming?

I disagree that "almost all blacks" assume all whites are racist. And as a white liberal who supports affirmative action and understands what is meant by white privilege, I am not ashamed to be white nor do I believe all whites or older whites are racist.

As someone who scoffs at the SJW term "white privilege", you will have to educate me on this.
How can there be "white privilege" but not all white people have that privilege? Is it a certain shade or tone of the white color that provides the privilege? If a white person doesn't have it, how can they reclaim it?