Step Up Oklahoma

[tlwwake]

Looks like the legislature will vote on this today... thoughts on this?

Not sure how accurate this is... but this shows Oklahoma (44k) is 3rd to last in US in average salary for teachers. Only South Dakota and Mississippi are lower.
https://www.cheatsheet.com/culture/states-highest-lowest-teacher-salaries.html/?a=viewall
https://articles.niche.com/teacher-salaries-in-america/

http://stepupoklahoma.com/
THE STEP UP OKLAHOMA PLAN. A nonpartisan group of business, civic and community leaders came together to work with lawmakers to develop the Step Up Oklahoma plan. Step Up Oklahoma would stabilize state revenue, reform government to increase efficiency and cut abuse, and raise teacher pay by $5,000 a year.

 

[SMemmett]

I'm a 6th year teacher. I teach all AP classes. I make 35K a year, but that includes my insurance. My take home pay for this 12 month cycle (yearly step raises are in August) is $25,875.

 

[Ostatedchi]

This plan sucks. I hope if fails.

 

[tlwwake]

This plan sucks. I hope if fails.

Because of where the supposed money is coming from? From what little I've followed, it seems a bit vague.

 

[mseabolt]

My wife is a 10 year high school teacher and she doesn't sniff 44k .. The average teacher must have like 20 years tenure

 

[Ostatedchi]

Because of where the supposed money is coming from? From what little I've followed, it seems a bit vague.

Yes. It is mostly off of sin taxes. They are regressive and I don't like the government trying to manipulate people's activity like that.

 

[NeekReevers]

Yes. It is mostly off of sin taxes. They are regressive and I don't like the government trying to manipulate people's activity like that.

That's not my preferred source of revenue either, but I think we are at a point where we don't have much choice. I don't think there is a compromise to be had that can get the required votes outside of this one.

 

[purkey]

Most of the teachers pay that is a bit high are the admin and principals. I mean the ones who have been there a while and know how to manipulate the system. They’re making over well $100,000 and with a masters it goes higher. It’s the bottom third it looks like who are getting screwed. $5 grand won’t cure it but maybe stop the bleeding temporarily. The system is flawed.

 

[cableok]

I don’t like the plan.

Teachers need better pay, but paying based on tenure is not the way to go. Schools should pay teachers based on MERIT and ABILITY.

And our state must collapse school districts. Having over 400 districts is crazy and causes tremendous administrative expenses that could be eliminated.

 

[Ostatedchi]

Let teachers negotiate their own salaries just like everyone else.

 

[Bitter Creek]

I don’t like the plan.

Teachers need better pay, but paying based on tenure is not the way to go. Schools should pay teachers based on MERIT and ABILITY.

And our state must collapse school districts. Having over 400 districts is crazy and causes tremendous administrative expenses that could be eliminated.

Everything you said is correct, but I think we need to get some immediate relief going now. The items you are discussing will take a decade to complete.

 

[BIGOSUFAN]

Oklahoma needs to fix this and fix this fast. Its like the state wants to regress backwards. The state already suffers from "brain drain" and this is a big deal for young professional, well-educated couples with young kids considering moving to Oklahoma. Not to mention for businesses looking to relocate or expand.

 

[Bitter Creek]

from a teacher friend of mine, "...teachers definitely need a raise but not from increasing taxes... there is a lot of misappropriation in OKC"

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

Oklahoma needs to do something, and starting with the gross production tax is a good start. Eliminate many of the BS oil and gas tax credits as well.

 

[BvillePoker]

2 issues with the step up plan. First, there are a lot of things in it that are not cost/revenue or budget items. They are pure power grabs for the Governor and legislators about to term limit out. Second, YOU CANNOT RAISE TAXES OR INSTITUTE NEW TAXES WITHOUT A %75 SUPER MAJORITY.

 

[tlwwake]

Oklahoma needs to do something, and starting with the gross production tax is a good start. Eliminate many of the BS oil and gas tax credits as well.

Looks like it could come down to 1 vote...

 

[EvilPOKES]

School consolidation is something that needs to happen in many states. Arkansas, last I checked, had around 400 just like Oklahoma. Ridiculous for states that size and population.

 

[poke2001]

Oklahoma needs to do something, and starting with the gross production tax is a good start. Eliminate many of the BS oil and gas tax credits as well.

Well, I agree with Toon on something, and I’m an O&G guy (granted, global, not Oklahoma).

 

[EvilPOKES]

Weed for kids

 

[Ostatedchi]

Sales tax on services if you want to broaden the revenue streams of the OK government. Reduce the energy rebates.

 

[Bitter Creek]

Some interesting stats on the non charter schools in the state: The smallest 216 districts have a total of 45,000 students and $130Million in total funding or $2,859 per student. The OKC district, by itself has 45,000 and $104Million or $2,286 per student.

The extra cost of the loss of “efficiency” between those two extremes appears to be about 25%. So, if you could somehow magically make the 216 smallest as efficient as the largest, you would end up with an additional $26Million to spread among the state’s 42,000 teachers or $620/teacher.

Not much.

 

[BvillePoker]

HB1033XX adding additional taxes on cigarettes, small cigars, chewing tobacco, oil and gas production, wind energy, and gasoline and diesel fuel just failed.

 

[Ostatedchi]

HB1033XX adding additional taxes on cigarettes, small cigars, chewing tobacco, oil and gas production, wind energy, and gasoline and diesel fuel just failed.

Did any of our representatives vote in favor?

 

[BvillePoker]

Did any of our representatives vote in favor?

Yes. Sears

 

[Ostatedchi]

Yes. Sears

Damn it Earl. Friday he has a few questions to answer.

 

[SMemmett]

I don’t like the plan.

Teachers need better pay, but paying based on tenure is not the way to go. Schools should pay teachers based on MERIT and ABILITY.

And our state must collapse school districts. Having over 400 districts is crazy and causes tremendous administrative expenses that could be eliminated.

What's is your proposed merit and ability system? If I go get a job teaching algebra at OKCPS, and my student levels are already low, how you judge my ability?

How about teachers who teach severely intellectually handicapped children how do you judge them?

 

[Ostatedchi]

What's is your proposed merit and ability system? If I go get a job teaching algebra at OKCPS, and my student levels are already low, how you judge my ability?

How about teachers who teach severely intellectually handicapped children how do you judge them?

You agree to industry norms, test the kids as they enter the classroom, then test them as they leave. If they've progressed the agreed upon skill levels, the teacher makes their merit.

 

[poke2001]

You agree to industry norms, test the kids as they enter the classroom, then test them as they leave. If they've progressed the agreed upon skill levels, the teacher makes their merit.

I don’t like this. Parental involvement is a huge part in a kid’s success. Of course they need good teachers as well, but a good teacher in a shit school with bad parents is at a sever disadvantage. Also, when you tie pay increases to things somewhat out of their control, you encourage gaming the system (I.e. “teaching to the test).

I do not have the answer, but maybe it is some sort of merit/tenure mix.

 

[Ostatedchi]

I don’t like this. Parental involvement is a huge part in a kid’s success. Of course they need good teachers as well, but a good teacher in a shit school with bad parents is at a sever disadvantage. Also, when you tie pay increases to things somewhat out of their control, you encourage gaming the system (I.e. “teaching to the test).

I do not have the answer, but maybe it is some sort of merit/tenure mix.

You can adjust the scale of the progress according to other factors. I'd let the teacher and administration agree to what they believe are the right numbers to meet.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I don’t like this. Parental involvement is a huge part in a kid’s success. Of course they need good teachers as well, but a good teacher in a shit school with bad parents is at a sever disadvantage. Also, when you tie pay increases to things somewhat out of their control, you encourage gaming the system (I.e. “teaching to the test).

I do not have the answer, but maybe it is some sort of merit/tenure mix.

I like the idea of merit-based. We should have merit based teachers, merit based administrations, merit based schools, merit based school districts, merit based all the way to the top. How to do it? Privatize, of course!

 

[poke2001]

You can adjust the scale of the progress according to other factors. I'd let the teacher and administration agree to what they believe are the right numbers to meet.

Ok...but that will never happen in state run institutions. That’s how private businesses work.

 

[poke2001]

I like the idea of merit-based. We should have merit based teachers, merit based administrations, merit based schools, merit based school districts, merit based all the way to the top. How to do it? Privatize, of course!

Agree. Private businesses can certainly do merit based, as could private schools. State run with unions would never work.

 

[SMemmett]

I think there are too many variables for purely merit based teaching. Poke01 hit on a few of them.

 

[PokeMBA]

Only in OK does the legilslative leaders get their pants pulled down by the O&G community by giving a huge reduction in gross production tax in first 3 years right before horizontal drilling and advance fracking practices pushed 80% of oil production up into the first 3 years. There was always a decline but it's steeper than ever and these are resources our state will never get back


But now we have to tax cigs and lotto in order to afford mediocre level of teacher salary and wages

 

[Ostatedchi]

Ok...but that will never happen in state run institutions. That’s how private businesses work.

I agree. But you asked how it would work. That's how. At least in the real world - not government.

 

[cableok]

What's is your proposed merit and ability system? If I go get a job teaching algebra at OKCPS, and my student levels are already low, how you judge my ability?

How about teachers who teach severely intellectually handicapped children how do you judge them?

I would do none of that. I do what most all private businesses do. I would simply empower supervisors to reward their best direct reports. Supervisors, in this case mostly principals, could judge teachers on several different items (direct view, teacher collaboration, parental communication, curriculum adherence, peer feedback, school involvement, and certainly some level of student achievement can be included).

Not really difficult at all to start. Other than the fact school supervisors need some amount of $$$$ allocated by the state to use for merit. Not having a merit-based system is, IMO, one of the biggest obstacles to success. The NEA deserves all the criticism they receive and they are in the wrong side of this issue.

 

[JimmyBob]

I don’t like this. Parental involvement is a huge part in a kid’s success. Of course they need good teachers as well, but a good teacher in a shit school with bad parents is at a sever disadvantage. Also, when you tie pay increases to things somewhat out of their control, you encourage gaming the system (I.e. “teaching to the test).

I do not have the answer, but maybe it is some sort of merit/tenure mix.

The dog's and my competent adult supervision retired from teaching way back when she didn't have to "teach to the test"; although, it was heading there. She didn't teach in a shit school, had requests for kids to be in her class, and had parent involvement; it was fun!! Sadly, a lot of that has been lost.

 

[OKSTATE1]

Private schools work because they can kick kids out. Education is not a right, it is a privilege. Many class rooms are a zoo and the teacher can not even speak over the kids. Public schools have become glorified day care centers. Kids should be thrown out for a year if they have 3 discipline issues a year, and that should include being such a disruption that other kids are unable to learn and the teacher can not teach. It is the kids in the class rooms holding other kids back, and some parents today do not parent. It is wrong the inability of some parents to parent and instill discipline within their child keeps other kids from learning.

If the parents realized schools were no longer going to be a glorified daycare center, perhaps they would parent. Do not like that? Bring back corporal punishment to the class rooms and protect the teachers and force kids to behave.

I had nuns do things to me in the 60’s and 70’s that would be child abuse today, we had no BS in the class room and everyone learned. If the nuns could not control you, you were kicked out. Had uniforms, lined up and raised the flag each day and salute the flag, and said the pledge of allegiance. We had some discipline. In first grade I came home and complained about getting in trouble, got spanked with a belt and never again complained about what happened at school. This is not rocket science. Sitting on a flight to Washington DC from Europe I sat next to the #2 education official in the US, told me I had it right but US not ready for it but it would solve most of the problem. I taught Junior Achievement in an OKC school and I was SHOCKED by the behavior of students. We complain about pay for teachers and it is true, but the kids run the school. We believe now only a parent can “parent” now, what BS. I spent more time around teachers and coaches then I ever did my parents. Other parents back in my day could whip my butt if needed. Today? Get sued.

This official said in China if your child messes up in school the principal one evening knocks on the door and tells the parents the problem and if it happens again, the next knock means the whole family is moving to a more “suitable” school. He said in China where you live determines the quality of the school and they assimilate like students in appropriate schools. He said China has few issues with problem kids or students.

 

[purkey]

looks like plan B....or J or something else.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

Same crew that created this mess have now came up
with this? No thank you.

Only in OK does the legilslative leaders get their pants pulled down by the O&G community by giving a huge reduction in gross production tax in first 3 years right before horizontal drilling and advance fracking practices pushed 80% of oil production up into the first 3 years. There was always a decline but it's steeper than ever and these are resources our state will never get back

But now we have to tax cigs and lotto in order to afford mediocre level of teacher salary and wages

This.

We simply don't value education. It's just insane that we've stripped down education funding to protect horizontal drilling.