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Proud of My President

While my sentiment is decidedly anti-war, you are missing the point of this thread. Trump’s pretext for his recent missle strike was the use of chemical weapons was inhumane and intolerable, suggesting that murdering people in another way (bombs and bullets) is perfectly civilized. And so he has now murdered people in a humane fashion. If you agree with his “logic” please be so kind as to explain how murdering people with bombs and bullets is humane. Why is it humane when our government kills people in such a way, but a hideous action when a nut job goes into a school and does the same thing? I would greatly appreciate it if you could explain it to me.

As regards your comment that those people who are against war should either STFU or hold hands, I assure you that we will never STFU, but I personally will go to Washington and hold hands if you personally will take up arms and go to Syria to participate in the conflict for which you are so enamored. Your dad and uncle did it. If you are so convinced of the correctness of the cause I suggest you follow in their footsteps. Do we have a deal? I’ll hold hands while you shoot people and get shot at. Let me know when you’re over there and I’ll head up to Washington to hold hands. Maybe I’ll send you a care package of milk and cookies. What do you prefer, chocolate chip?

My dad and Uncle were DRAFTED. Those in the US military today chose a career in the military as a profession, they get trained and paid, this is what they WANT to do knowing fully they could die or have to kill someone and that career supports their family. Just like Police and Fire know the risks and could die, that is what they chose to do. Duty called for our Military so go do your job. Let me know when you figure out how to stop Assad without force, or do you prefer to allow him to gas people. So yeah, unless you have a real world solution maybe you need to move on and stop acting like you are on some higher moral ground then the rest of the world. No one wants war, no one. But this world needs somebody to stop evil people and to protect those who can not protect themselves.
 
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I think your issue is you are not seeing the reason behind the US/UK/France coalition bombing. It was to STOP or slow down the killing and harming of Syrian residents by their own government.

The Syrian attack was against people. The US/UK/France attack was against building that housed and/or made those weapons. Certainly you can see the massive difference between these two actions.
I think your issue is you are not seeing the reason behind the US/UK/France coalition bombing. It was to STOP or slow down the killing and harming of Syrian residents by their own government.

The Syrian attack was against people. The US/UK/France attack was against building that housed and/or made those weapons. Certainly you can see the massive difference between these two actions.


And the way to STOP the killing or harming of Syrian residents by their own government is for the US to kill and harm them instead? No, I do not see the massive difference. What I do see is a bunch of people who are living safe and sound in their nice, comfortable and safe suburbs in America thinking the US should put a stop to all atrocities across the globe as long as we use 18 year old boys as our cannon fodder and their nice, safe, comfortable suburban existences are not bothered.
 
My dad and Uncle were DRAFTED. Those in the US military today chose a career in the military as a profession, they get trained and paid, this is what they WANT to do knowing fully they could die or have to kill someone and that career supports their family. Just like Police and Fire know the risks and could die, that is what they chose to do. Duty called for our Military so go do your job. Let me know when you figure out how to stop Assad without force, or do you prefer to allow him to gas people. So yeah, unless you have a real world solution maybe you need to move on and stop acting like you are on some higher moral ground then the rest of the world. No one wants war, no one. But this world needs somebody to stop evil people and to protect those who can not protect themselves.
This world needs somebody to stop evil ... as long as that is somebody other than you. Have I got that right?
 
Is there a solution? If we use conventional weapons to kill Syrian citizens will that solve the Assad/Russian dilemma? We don’t even know it was Assad that used the damned chemical weapons! And sure as hell didn’t wait to find out. Why do you suppose that is?

So if your neighborhood gets invaded and they are going house to house slaughtering everyone, should our military just watch because they might kill innocents? Should they wait until you and all your neighbors are raped and killed, and houses burned down and they are “out in the open”. I mean we would not want our military to kill and defend because no killing can be justified in your mind and then let’s ignore the fact the military volunteered to be a professional in our Military and to get paid by tax payers to protect their life.
 
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So if your neighborhood gets invaded and they are going house to house slaughtering everyone, should our military just watch because they might kill innocents? Should they wait until you and all your neighbors are raped and killed, and houses burned down and they are “out in the open”. I mean we would not want our military to kill and defend because no killing can be justified in your mind and then let’s ignore the fact the military volunteered to be a professional in our Military and to get paid by tax payers to protect their life.
You are arguing against a straw man of your own design. Answer one simple question, the only question I have asked: during time of war is killing people by use of conventional weapons humane? If you say yes, we disagree. If you say no, we agree. End of discussion.
 
This world needs somebody to stop evil ... as long as that is somebody other than you. Have I got that right?

No, if I am drafted I will serve. I do expect those who VOLUNTEERED knowing the risks and accepted the pay and the profession to go do their job when duty calls or get out of the Military. Anyone that joins the military expecting never to go to war, and cannot accept the risk, and does not want to kill somebody, should never join. It is not a job that allows you to be paid and just wear a uniform and just train only, if that was the case the recruiting offices would be full. But go ahead attack me personally because your political viewpoint on this appears to say you would be ok to be under Nazi and / or imperial Japanese rule because no killIng can ever be justified.
 
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You are arguing against a straw man of your own design. Answer one simple question, the only question I have asked: during time of war is killing people by use of conventional weapons humane? If you say yes, we disagree. If you say no, we agree. End of discussion.

Answer my question first, I could argue your questions is a straw man of your own design.
 
Answer my question first, I could argue your questions is a straw man of your own design.
Should the MILITARY intervene if someone or some gang entered my neighborhood and began raping, murdering and pillaging? Is that your question? My answer to that question is no , the military should not intervene.

Your turn. But first explain to me how my question is a straw man. It’s a straight forward question, not a hypothetical. How is it a straw man? Then, please answer my question. No matter how you answer we need not “argue” any more. We will both know exactly where we stand.
 
So if your neighborhood gets invaded and they are going house to house slaughtering everyone, should our military just watch because they might kill innocents? Should they wait until you and all your neighbors are raped and killed, and houses burned down and they are “out in the open”. I mean we would not want our military to kill and defend because no killing can be justified in your mind and then let’s ignore the fact the military volunteered to be a professional in our Military and to get paid by tax payers to protect their life.
If my neighborhood gets invaded, that means the US has been invaded and the sole existence of the US military is to defend the USA. I don't see how lobbing missiles at Syria is aligned with the mission of our military.

Where's the evidence that Assad used chemical weapons against anyone? How do we know it wasn't one of the terrorist groups that Syrian forces are battling? We are told we can't see the evidence because it's classified. It seems the classified game can hide all kinds of unsavory shit from the American people. Who can hold the US accountable if its own citizens can't?

We were assured Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction that required a US invasion, the killing of untold thousands of people, and a regime change that led to the killing of untold thousands more to protect us. Strangely enough, there's been no evidence that any threat of chemical weapons via Saddam or Iraq was real.

You actually wonder why some of us are skeptical about our government's endless killing resources and the literal lack of accountability when they are used? If military drones are used to blow up the swap meet in Spencer OK based on classified intelligence that the swap meet was actually a sophisticated foreign terrorist cell, will you be fine with that as long as our government tells us the evidence that they used to justify the strike but can't show us because it's classified is solid?
 
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You are arguing against a straw man of your own design. Answer one simple question, the only question I have asked: during time of war is killing people by use of conventional weapons humane? If you say yes, we disagree. If you say no, we agree. End of discussion.
Except it wasn’t just a strawman. You continue to equate two completely separate and disparate actions.

What you are basically saying is equivalent to thinking the Parkland police officer was not only right by not going inside and stopping the slaughter of more innocents, but it would be inhumane for the police officer to use deadly force to stop further slaughter of innocents.


Now to your last question above. Yes killing innocents by traditional weapons is no more/less justifiable than killing innocents with chemical weapons.
 
Is there a solution? If we use conventional weapons to kill Syrian citizens will that solve the Assad/Russian dilemma? We don’t even know it was Assad that used the damned chemical weapons! And sure as hell didn’t wait to find out. Why do you suppose that is?

i’m asking you

given that assad used chemical weapons

what is your solution?
 
If my neighborhood gets invaded, that means the US has been invaded and the sole existence of the US military is to defend the USA. I don't see how lobbing missiles at Syria is aligned with the mission of our military.

Where's the evidence that Assad used chemical weapons against anyone? How do we know it wasn't one of the terrorist groups that Syrian forces are battling? We are told we can't see the evidence because it's classified. It seems the classified game can hide all kinds of unsavory shit from the American people. Who can hold the US accountable if its own citizens can't?

We were assured Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction that required a US invasion, the killing of untold thousands of people, and a regime change that led to the killing of untold thousands more to protect us. Strangely enough, there's been no evidence that any threat of chemical weapons via Saddam or Iraq was real.

You actually wonder why some of us are skeptical about our government's endless killing resources and the literal lack of accountability when they are used? If military drones are used to blow up the swap meet in Spencer OK based on classified intelligence that the swap meet was actually a sophisticated foreign terrorist cell, will you be fine with that as long as our government tells us the evidence that they used to justify the strike but can't show us because it's classified is solid?

You are certainly justified to have professional skepticism and to have a strong opinion on this. In this instance the fact 3 countries agreed it happened is enough evidence for me, hopefully we can agree to disagree.
 
Where's the evidence pointing to Syrian government forces are responsible? Pictures of people exposed to chlorine gas is hardly evidence that Assad is responsible.

medic i’ve been corresponding with ponca dan and asked him a direct question

i’m not interested in splitting the conversation further into a jury trial on whether assad used chemical weapons
 
You are certainly justified to have professional skepticism and to have a strong opinion on this. In this instance the fact 3 countries agreed it happened is enough evidence for me, hopefully we can agree to disagree.
We can always agree to disagree, sir. You are always a very respectable poster.

Several countries agreed on Iraq as well. I trust British and French intelligence about as much as I trust US intelligence when they're allowed to operate without accountability, which is zero.

UN members have asked for the evidence. So far the response is that the evidence is classified. I'll be curious how this unfolds. If the evidence, if ever given, doesn't support the conclusion we've been given, who gets to hold the US government accountable and how?
 
medic i’ve been corresponding with ponca dan and asked him a direct question

i’m not interested in splitting the conversation further into a jury trial on whether assad used chemical weapons
Well, the justification for the US military strike was Assad's use of chemical weapons. If the justification was based on incorrect or absent information, is the strike still justified in your mind?
 
My one last thought on this. Putin threatened to shoot our missiles down and attack our ships. Neither have happened, why? Because Putin was not going to escalate the situation knowing Assad was guilty. If Assad was innocent, do people doubt Russia would have responded? I believe this was part of the calculation the UK, France, and the US agreed on, no way would Russia interfere knowing Assad was guilty of gassing civilians.
 
Except it wasn’t just a strawman. You continue to equate two completely separate and disparate actions.

What you are basically saying is equivalent to thinking the Parkland police officer was not only right by not going inside and stopping the slaughter of more innocents, but it would be inhumane for the police officer to use deadly force to stop further slaughter of innocents.


Now to your last question above. Yes killing innocents by traditional weapons is no more/less justifiable than killing innocents with chemical weapons.
Separate actions? They were joined at the hip! One action precipitated the other. Trump was talking about leaving Syria. The chemical weapon attack occurred, causing Trump to retaliate with a missle attack. Hardly separate actions. Trump insisted the chemical attack was inhumane and called for a response. Therefore one can only conclude he believes his missle attack was humane, can one not? That’s the whole point of the thread. I am relieved that you agree.
 
Well, the justification for the US military strike was Assad's use of chemical weapons. If the justification was based on incorrect or absent information, is the strike still justified in your mind?


sure
 
My one last thought on this. Putin threatened to shoot our missiles down and attack our ships. Neither have happened, why? Because Putin was not going to escalate the situation knowing Assad was guilty. If Assad was innocent, do people doubt Russia would have responded? I believe this was part of the calculation the UK, France, and the US agreed on, no way would Russia interfere knowing Assad was guilty of gassing civilians.
I don't believe Russia would have provided any response regardless, much like we've provided no response to them bombing opposition forces we're providing weapons to. Direct military engagement is not a desired outcome for either side.
 
I thought I would pass this along. My wife, whose intelligence surpasses mine by a factor of at least ten, had this conversation with me.

Wife: While I agree 100% with the argument as you present it, answer this question for me: is it “more humane” to execute a prisoner by means of lethal injection or having him drawn and quartered?

Me: Lethal injection, no doubt about it.

Wife: Therefore it stands to reason there are degrees of inhumane ways of killing people during times of war, does it not?

Point, Set, Match. She got me.
 
Should the MILITARY intervene if someone or some gang entered my neighborhood and began raping, murdering and pillaging? Is that your question? My answer to that question is no , the military should not intervene.

Your turn. But first explain to me how my question is a straw man. It’s a straight forward question, not a hypothetical. How is it a straw man? Then, please answer my question. No matter how you answer we need not “argue” any more. We will both know exactly where we stand.

Your question of which method of killing is more humane is not a real question in my mind. Who has identified a humane way of killing when it comes to warfare? No reason to argue semantics with methods of dealing death on the battle field. I will go back to some of the conversations I had with my father who fought in brutal conditions.

1. In war, kill as fast as you can or be killed. Kill fast to end it and stop the killing.

2. The Geneva Convention is a joke, my dad told me in detail how US soldiers and Japanese soldiers committed so called war crimes. I mean seriously, we engage in war and after the fact judge who fought it more fairly when survival is at issue? Seriously? Who is in their right mind when it is kill or be killed? The goal of war is to win, not win fairly, to think otherwise is just silly. Wars have been fought, we know how are they won.

So, the most “humane” way to kill in a war IMO is to bring maxium force upon your enemy and go all out to end it as quickly as possible under any means: Nukes, chems, bullets, you name it. End it fast to spare casualties on both sides and particularly civilians.

I would be supporting this action if it was Obama or HRC.

I physically put a beat down on 4 bullies between middle school and high school. No, I was not the biggest, I was small, but I was tough, fast, and hurt you quick. In those instances I was not the target of the bullying, I saw helpless kids who were totally miserable being impacted in their learning by these bullies and their self esteem. Every time I warned them to stop it or I would stop it. Professionally in almost a 30 year career I have stepped in and taken down 3 workplace bullies, I put myself at risk.

I have always had a soft spot for those who cannot defend themselves. I read once the worst cowardice is to know what is right and to do nothing. At my age I am tired of taking on bullies frankly and my desire to do so is has decreased substantially. It saddens me fewer kids and adults today do not step up and stop bullies.

My dad parachute trained for the invasion of Japan and had been briefed on the invasion plans. In that meeting for the first time ever my dad said at the end one of the troops asked a question, he asked what the evacuation plans were. He was told do not worry son if you fight bravely and long enough and survive when the war is over we will find a way to get you home. They then knew none of them would be coming back. They were also told the Japanese civilians from children to Grandma would fight to the death, they were told to expect women and children with sharpened broom handles like a spear to try to kill them while they landed. They were told if any Japanese approached they were assuredly hostile and to kill them, no matter their age.

Dropping the 2 bombs on Japan while horrible saved lives, it quickly ended the war with Japan. My dad said the happiest days of his life were the 2 days those nukes were dropped.

Using war and humane in a discussion does not make sense to me, the only thing that does is ending it as fast as humanly possible, that seems the most humane.

I would prefer to have a military perceived to be so strong no one jacked with us, and when we asked you to stop gassing civilians to stop. I would prefer no wars.
 
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I don't believe Russia would have provided any response regardless, much like we've provided no response to them bombing opposition forces we're providing weapons to. Direct military engagement is not a desired outcome for either side.

Very well could be, but I also believe Putin would not have drawn the line on Trump on this and backed off if he was in the right. They both have huge egos.
 
So, the most “humane” way to kill in a war IMO is to bring maxium force upon your enemy and go all out to end it as quickly as possible under any means: Nukes, chems, bullets, you name it. End it fast to spare casualties on both sides and particularly civilians.


It’s a good thing you’re not in charge of this, then.

Nukes are the LAST resort...period. When you drop nukes, you have identified no other conventional means of victory and have reached the point where collateral damage has become an afterthought. Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed about 130,000 people, most of whom had never picked up a gun.


There’s a reason they remain, to this day, the only nuclear attacks in human history.
 
It’s a good thing you’re not in charge of this, then.

Nukes are the LAST resort...period. When you drop nukes, you have identified no other conventional means of victory and have reached the point where collateral damage has become an afterthought. Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed about 130,000 people, most of whom had never picked up a gun.


There’s a reason they remain, to this day, the only nuclear attacks in human history.

I believe they estimated it would take 400,000 dead US soldiers to take mainland Japan. Who said Nukes is a first option? You always try to create your own reality, and it is some reality.
 
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It’s a good thing you’re not in charge of this, then.

Nukes are the LAST resort...period. When you drop nukes, you have identified no other conventional means of victory and have reached the point where collateral damage has become an afterthought. Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed about 130,000 people, most of whom had never picked up a gun.


There’s a reason they remain, to this day, the only nuclear attacks in human history.
Nukes are a last resort. But we haven’t had a war on the scale of WW2. And we now how more surgical methods to attack facilities and compounds and curtail the loss of innocent human life.
It is revisionist history to attempt to say war with Japan could have been ended as quickly without dropping those bombs.
 
I agree, I was talking about lessons learned from my dad from WW2, of course you know who hijacks it and as always lacks comprehension and context skills.
You had nukes listed first. That's what likely prompted his response.

And I always appreciate the stories about your dad. The toughest American generation since America was founded.
 
Nukes are a last resort. But we haven’t had a war on the scale of WW2. And we now how more surgical methods to attack facilities and compounds and curtail the loss of innocent human life.

Exactly...conventional technology has advanced to the point where nukes are simply not a reasonable, or “humane” option.

“The bombs immediately devastated their targets. Over the next two to four months, the acute effects of the atomic bombings killed 90,000–146,000 people in Hiroshima and 39,000–80,000 people in Nagasaki; roughly half of the deaths in each city occurred on the first day. Large numbers of people continued to die from the effects of burns, radiation sickness, and other injuries, compounded by illness and malnutrition, for many months afterward.”


Rendering a country effectively deadly and uninhabitable for its civilians isn’t in the ballpark of “humane”. The scorched-earth effect that nuclear warfare presents is a very strong distinctive “red line” between humane and inhumane warfare.

There’s a reason we don’t stoop to chemical/biological agents when tyrannical regimes regularly do. That’s part of the intent of eliminating such threats.
 
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You had nukes listed first. That's what likely prompted his response.

And I always appreciate the stories about your dad. The toughest American generation since America was founded.

Appreciate it, that war gave him demons, they knew nothing of post traumatic stress syndrome back then. It was an amazing generation for sure, their sacrifice is off the charts. My dad also grew up during the depression as many of them did, we have it so easy, and I am thankful for that.
 
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I thought I would pass this along. My wife, whose intelligence surpasses mine by a factor of at least ten, had this conversation with me.

Wife: While I agree 100% with the argument as you present it, answer this question for me: is it “more humane” to execute a prisoner by means of lethal injection or having him drawn and quartered?

Me: Lethal injection, no doubt about it.

Wife: Therefore it stands to reason there are degrees of inhumane ways of killing people during times of war, does it not?

Point, Set, Match. She got me.
Again, where are he reports the coalition bombs killed civilians?


Second question/situation:
You are the President and are confident Assad is lobbing chemical bombs and killing civilian opposition. You are also confident you know the building the chemical bombs are stored/made. You also have a weapon that can pinpoint destruction of the chemical bomb facility, but there is a small potential that some innocent loss could be inflicted if bomb drops off course. However, if you don’t act, the likelihood that Assad continues campaign against innocent families continues.

Do you drop your pinpoint bombs and stop further innocent life? Or do you do nothing? What is more humane?
 
Exactly...conventional technology has advanced to the point where nukes are simply not a reasonable, or “humane” option.

“The bombs immediately devastated their targets. Over the next two to four months, the acute effects of the atomic bombings killed 90,000–146,000 people in Hiroshima and 39,000–80,000 people in Nagasaki; roughly half of the deaths in each city occurred on the first day. Large numbers of people continued to die from the effects of burns, radiation sickness, and other injuries, compounded by illness and malnutrition, for many months afterward.”


Rendering a country effectively deadly and uninhabitable for its civilians isn’t in the ballpark of “humane”. The scorched-earth effect that nuclear warfare presents is a very strong distinctive “red line” between humane and inhumane warfare.

There’s a reason we don’t stoop to chemical/biological agents when tyrannical regimes regularly do. That’s part of the intent of eliminating such threats.

Google it up, it was estimated invading Japan would have resulted in 400,000 to 800,000 dead US soldiers and between 5 million to 10 million Japanese.

Afterwards we rebuilt Japan to the point their infrastructure was newer then our own and allowed them to become an industrial giant.

But keeping telling yourself it was less humane to kill 250K then a door to door, street to street fight killing millions, which would have also leveled everything. This was a culture that spawned Kamikaze pilots and had Japanese hiding out decades later in the Philippines. They would have fought to the bitter end.
 
Again, where are he reports the coalition bombs killed civilians?


Second question/situation:
You are the President and are confident Assad is lobbing chemical bombs and killing civilian opposition. You are also confident you know the building the chemical bombs are stored/made. You also have a weapon that can pinpoint destruction of the chemical bomb facility, but there is a small potential that some innocent loss could be inflicted if bomb drops off course. However, if you don’t act, the likelihood that Assad continues campaign against innocent families continues.

Do you drop your pinpoint bombs and stop further innocent life? Or do you do nothing? What is more humane?

I recognize I am not emperor of the world, I am the elected administrator of one country in the world. I understand it is not for me alone to decide into which foreign conflicts my country’s military will be involved. I follow G. Washington’s advice from the beginning of our republic: I stay out of foreign entanglements. I offer what encouragement I can on a personal level to end the bloodshed. But I do not commit treasure or young men as a sacrifice to my moral code. If I feel strongly enough about the inhuman actions, and I know with certainty who is responsible, I would resign my position and join with other private individuals who feel as I do and conduct my own personal intervention. My country should not be thought of as the world’s policeman. We should be an example of peaceful interaction, an example for others to follow.
 
Google it up, it was estimated invading Japan would have resulted in 400,000 to 800,000 dead US soldiers and between 5 million to 10 million Japanese.

Afterwards we rebuilt Japan to the point their infrastructure was newer then our own and allowed them to become an industrial giant.

But keeping telling yourself it was less humane to kill 250K then a door to door, street to street fight killing millions, which would have also leveled everything. This was a culture that spawned Kamikaze pilots and had Japanese hiding out decades later in the Philippines. They would have fought to the bitter end.
Your understanding of history at that time is a seriously flawed rendition spoon fed to you by your government. They lied to you - imagine that! - and like millions of others you lapped it up like a sponge.
 
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Your understanding of history at that time is a seriously flawed rendition spoon fed to you by your government. They lied to you - imagine that! - and like millions of others you lapped it up like a sponge.

Russia lost 20 million civilians and military personnel defending their homeland in WW2. Japan losing that many was not out of the question at all. Those are the facts.
 
Exactly...conventional technology has advanced to the point where nukes are simply not a reasonable, or “humane” option.

“The bombs immediately devastated their targets. Over the next two to four months, the acute effects of the atomic bombings killed 90,000–146,000 people in Hiroshima and 39,000–80,000 people in Nagasaki; roughly half of the deaths in each city occurred on the first day. Large numbers of people continued to die from the effects of burns, radiation sickness, and other injuries, compounded by illness and malnutrition, for many months afterward.”


Rendering a country effectively deadly and uninhabitable for its civilians isn’t in the ballpark of “humane”. The scorched-earth effect that nuclear warfare presents is a very strong distinctive “red line” between humane and inhumane warfare.

There’s a reason we don’t stoop to chemical/biological agents when tyrannical regimes regularly do. That’s part of the intent of eliminating such threats.
You were correct in your assessment right up to your last paragraph. For instance, during the Korean War the US bombed the North until there was literally nothing left. The generals told Truman there were no targets remaining. So in the place of bombs we dropped plague-infested fleas over some of their villages. I’m sure OKState would approve. Destroy with all you’ve got, isn’t that the mantra?
I don’t know if Napalm counts, but it ought to.
 
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