OK, I'm going to go there.

[Been Jammin]

I would consider myself fairly anti-political. I actively avoid this board because of that, and because I am mostly liberal and am extremely outnumbered here.

With that said, I am wondering if some of you can clarify something for me.

So, Trump bans travel, into the US, from 7 predominantly Muslim countries. A judge suspends his executive order, and he attacks said judge while claiming that the suspension will allow all kinds of terrorists to flow into the U.S. I am pretty sure that none of you would argue with what I have said in this paragraph.

What I don't get is the following. If Trumps stance were accurate, wouldn't it stand to reason that terrorists, wanting to do us harm, have had an easy time getting into this country since 9/11? If that were the case, wouldn't it seem likely that there would have been regular terrorist attacks, by immigrants/refugees, in this country, since 9/11? I'm not talking about Jihadist U.S. citizens. I am talking about examples where the people Trump is trying to keep out of the country actually turned out to be terrorists. It has been over 15 years since 9/11, and Trump is trying to tell all of us that these terrorists are pouring into our country on a daily basis, and he is our only chance to stop it.

The way I see it, the U.S. already has vetting procedures in place that seem to be working. It is not easy to get into the U.S.. Could the vetting be more "extreme"? I am sure it could. But, Trump acts like there is no vetting in place at all, and any member of Al Qaeda/ISIS can just buy a plane ticket and be in the U.S. looking to buy fertilizer and shrapnel within a week. Obviously, that is not close to accurate, or we would be dealing with Boston Marathon-like bombings every week.

So, can one (or more) of you, please explain why Trump's executive order is so important, and how it makes the U.S. significantly safer? Wouldn't it make more sense to review the vetting process and find ways to make it more stringent? Couldn't that be done, without an overreaching executive order that affects hundreds of thousands of individuals who have already been vetted and approved for entry into the U.S.?

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

The point of the ban on travel from the 7 countries is that those 7 countries were identified previously (by Congress and the Obama administration) as particularly difficult to vet persons from. It is intended to be temporary while developing improved, more strenuous, threat-based, vetting procedures.

 

[Medic007]

So, Trump bans travel, into the US, from 7 predominantly Muslim countries.

Your starting point is not based in fact. It's a talking point. Things might make more sense to you if your thought process was based on fact.

 

[Been Jammin]

The point of the ban on travel from the 7 countries is that those 7 countries were identified previously (by Congress and the Obama administration) as particularly difficult to vet persons from. It is intended to be temporary while developing improved, more strenuous, threat-based, vetting procedures.

OK, but, once again. As far as we know, no terrorists have entered the U.S. from any of those countries. So, what difference is the temporary ban going to make? Wouldn't it have been wiser to start studying the current vetting procedures, upgrading them, then implementing the new procedures after you have your ducks in a row?

Trump wants us to believe that terrorists are regularly flowing into the country whenever they want to. Yet there is no evidence that it is close to true.

I guess it could be argued that they actually are flowing in and are just lying in wait until the time is right to attack, but that seems far fetched, IMO. It doesn't fit the terrorist m.o. to hide for years before attacking.

 

[Been Jammin]

Your starting point is not based in fact. It's a talking point. Things might make more sense to you if your thought process was based on fact.

This is your chance to educate me, amigo.

 

[Medic007]

But I will add that having Iran on the list is dumb. Outside of their stance on Israel, we share common enemies.

 

[Medic007]

This is your chance to educate me, amigo.

Take a look back at failed attacks and those caught plotting. I don't believe terrorists are "regularly" flowing into this country, but it doesn't take many to create problems. The new administration simply wants to halt things while they examine the processes in place and strengthen them if needed. ISIS has used the refugee programs of European countries to move terrorists into them. They've stated they are doing the same thing in our refugee program, and there is zero reason to doubt them.

If you start with the concept that the EO is for anything other than protecting folks living in the US, you're going to see it as something bad. I think we have to take refugees since Bush and Obama created the crisis with their war mongering. But we also have to make sure we are only bringing in refugees.

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

It extends further than just banning people from those countries, its an overall paranoia it creates, I am sure its no coincidence but since that EO was signed , we have had two friends, one a naturalized US citizen ( she carries both a US and EU passport) and a permanent resident alien ( Permanent US VISA / greencard holder) both from the UK, I don;t know where one flew into , but the second one went through Dulles, both were required to give their cell phone pass codes to the immigration officers ( or they were told they would be held and placed on the next flight back to the UK) and they went through their phones looking at links, who they follow on Twitter....ect. These two ladies come back into the US multiple times a year and had never been required to do that before. IMO thats an invasion pf Privacy, they should have no right to do that.........the big question is..........whats next? When do they start stopping you and me walking down the street and go through our phones?

 

[Medic007]

It extends further than just banning people from those countries, its an overall paranoia it creates, I am sure its no coincidence but since that EO was signed , we have had two friends, one a naturalized US citizen ( she carries both a US and EU passport) and a permanent resident alien ( Permanent US VISA / greencard holder) both from the UK, I don;t know where one flew into , but the second one went through Dulles, both were required to give their cell phone pass codes to the immigration officers ( or they were told they would be held and placed on the next flight back to the UK) and they went through their phones looking at links, who they follow on Twitter....ect. These two ladies come back into the US multiple times a year and had never been required to do that before. IMO thats an invasion pf Privacy, they should have no right to do that.........the big question is..........whats next? When do they start stopping you and me walking down the street and go through our phones?

If that was actually happening, the MSM would have run with it. I'm not saying I don't believe YOU, but that sounds like a bullshit story on somebody's part.

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

If that was actually happening, the MSM would have run with it. I'm not saying I don't believe YOU, but that sounds like a bullshit story on somebody's part.

Two different people who entered at two different times........

 

[Medic007]

Two different people who entered at two different times........

And only those two people as told by someone on a message board. Sounds legit.

The first time you told the story it was one person and you weren't confident in the story.

 

[Rdcldad]

honest to goodness germany france belgium
and other european countries have no idea who they are anymore

if everyone in the world bought each other a coke that would be great

but that fact is that's just not possible

healthy boundaries are important in relationships that affect us personally why in gods name should they not be important to our country?

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

And only those two people as told by someone on a message board. Sounds legit.

The first time you told the story it was one person and you weren't confident in the story.

The second happened two days later..........it was funny, right before the first incident, there was an article on Fox, that said that the White house was considering doing this, but there was no followup, I honestly didn;t really know what to think until I heard the second person, and , what I was not sure about was the first person said they had asked her two questions, one was does she support President Trump , I can't the other question right now...........but I thought that sounded kind of "Urban legend " type stuff

 

[squeak]

Wouldn't it have been wiser to start studying the current vetting procedures, upgrading them, then implementing the new procedures after you have your ducks in a row?

Isn't that what's happening?

 

[GunsOfFrankEaton]

I do not want for this country what has happened in Europe.

From the 1920's until the 1960's the United States had a policy of accepting no one from anywhere.

That would be just fine with me.

 

[GunsOfFrankEaton]

Isn't that what's happening?

Bingo.

 

[windriverrange]

UK my wife gets stopped fairly regularly coming back from Brazil (even when I'm with her) so what's your friends points? That because they are British and have passports they should just shuffle through?

Been part of this deal is that there have been some indications that a number of those countries are likely destinations for ISIS fighters once their Caliphate collapses. I think it's just dumb to say since no attacks have occurred from those countries why should we stop them now, without applying the same logic to criminals from other countries who have committed crimes here; Mexico, El Salvador etc.

Been, also thanks for stopping by. Just because your a lib and outnumbered doesn't mean people won't debate on facts.

 

[WCPoke]

It extends further than just banning people from those countries, its an overall paranoia it creates, I am sure its no coincidence but since that EO was signed , we have had two friends, one a naturalized US citizen ( she carries both a US and EU passport) and a permanent resident alien ( Permanent US VISA / greencard holder) both from the UK, I don;t know where one flew into , but the second one went through Dulles, both were required to give their cell phone pass codes to the immigration officers ( or they were told they would be held and placed on the next flight back to the UK) and they went through their phones looking at links, who they follow on Twitter....ect. These two ladies come back into the US multiple times a year and had never been required to do that before. IMO thats an invasion pf Privacy, they should have no right to do that.........the big question is..........whats next? When do they start stopping you and me walking down the street and go through our phones?

???

 

[Marshal Jim Duncan]

My daughter, who is a U.S. citizen from birth, was detained by U.S. Customs officials when we returned from Jamaica in December 2015. They took her into a room for questioning, for about 10 nineties and also made her boot up her Mac laptop. I really don't know why exactly, they told her when it was all over that it was because she is very short and has a bit of a baby face and they were skeptical she was 22 as her passport suggested.

It was irritating at the time, but so what?

 

[HighStickHarry]

I do not want for this country what has happened in Europe.

This is good enough for me on the whole issue. Study the Koran, study their teachings. Make a determination in your head how many Muslims want to change the west.

Trump made a temporary pause. How fascist is a temporary pause that gets over turned by a lower court?

 

[poke2001]

JFC, there is no ban. It's a temporary pause while we figure out what the **** is going on and to find a way to properly vet those that want to come here.

Pause...not ban.

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

UK my wife gets stopped fairly regularly coming back from Brazil (even when I'm with her) so what's your friends points? That because they are British and have passports they should just shuffle through?

Been part of this deal is that there have been some indications that a number of those countries are likely destinations for ISIS fighters once their Caliphate collapses. I think it's just dumb to say since no attacks have occurred from those countries why should we stop them now, without applying the same logic to criminals from other countries who have committed crimes here; Mexico, El Salvador etc.

Been, also thanks for stopping by. Just because your a lib and outnumbered doesn't mean people won't debate on facts.

No one should shuffle through, but immigration should not be searching cell phones to see who someone follows on twitter either.........

 

[HighStickHarry]

No one should shuffle through, but immigration should not be searching cell phones to see who someone follows on twitter either.........

You dropped the part about asking if she was a trump supporter. That was the only part I said was absolutely false.

 

[squeak]

My daughter, who is a U.S. citizen from birth, was detained by U.S. Customs officials when we returned from Jamaica in December 2015. They took her into a room for questioning, for about 10 nineties and also made her boot up her Mac laptop. I really don't know why exactly, they told her when it was all over that it was because she is very short and has a bit of a baby face and they were skeptical she was 22 as her passport suggested.

It was irritating at the time, but so what?

I'm glad you brought this up. We have had people stopped at countries all over the world, including US citizens stopped entering and even leaving the US, and had their properties search, including laptops.

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

You dropped the part about asking if she was a trump supporter. That was the only part I said was absolutely false.

And that was the part I also said I thought might be BS......as I said , sounds a little to much like an urban legend thing

 

[wyomingosualum]

No one should shuffle through, but immigration should not be searching cell phones to see who someone follows on twitter either.........

Should they search luggage of people coming into the country? Should they search cars that drive across the border?

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

Should they search luggage of people coming into the country? Should they search cars that drive across the border?

Should they search luggage of people coming into the country? Should they search cars that drive across the border?

Yes they should

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

I'm glad you brought this up. We have had people stopped at countries all over the world, including US citizens stopped entering and even leaving the US, and had their properties search, including laptops.

They don't go through your personal e-mails on the laptop do they?
I am all for opening a laptop, or turning on a cell phone , to make sure it is actually a phone and not a case with a bomb in it, but they should not go through personal info

 

[ThorOdinson13]

I would consider myself fairly anti-political. I actively avoid this board because of that, and because I am mostly liberal and am extremely outnumbered here.

With that said, I am wondering if some of you can clarify something for me.

So, Trump bans travel, into the US, from 7 predominantly Muslim countries. A judge suspends his executive order, and he attacks said judge while claiming that the suspension will allow all kinds of terrorists to flow into the U.S. I am pretty sure that none of you would argue with what I have said in this paragraph.

What I don't get is the following. If Trumps stance were accurate, wouldn't it stand to reason that terrorists, wanting to do us harm, have had an easy time getting into this country since 9/11? If that were the case, wouldn't it seem likely that there would have been regular terrorist attacks, by immigrants/refugees, in this country, since 9/11? I'm not talking about Jihadist U.S. citizens. I am talking about examples where the people Trump is trying to keep out of the country actually turned out to be terrorists. It has been over 15 years since 9/11, and Trump is trying to tell all of us that these terrorists are pouring into our country on a daily basis, and he is our only chance to stop it.

The way I see it, the U.S. already has vetting procedures in place that seem to be working. It is not easy to get into the U.S.. Could the vetting be more "extreme"? I am sure it could. But, Trump acts like there is no vetting in place at all, and any member of Al Qaeda/ISIS can just buy a plane ticket and be in the U.S. looking to buy fertilizer and shrapnel within a week. Obviously, that is not close to accurate, or we would be dealing with Boston Marathon-like bombings every week.

So, can one (or more) of you, please explain why Trump's executive order is so important, and how it makes the U.S. significantly safer? Wouldn't it make more sense to review the vetting process and find ways to make it more stringent? Couldn't that be done, without an overreaching executive order that affects hundreds of thousands of individuals who have already been vetted and approved for entry into the U.S.?

I think it would make sense to stop bringing in refugees and start working with other nations in the region to create safe zones for refugees. My only exception would be specifically targeted people's facing genocide and/or religious persecution.

Saudia Arabia has a 100,000 tent city, all units air conditioned. It is empty. Saw a statistic somewhere that said for the cost of every 10,000 refugees you relocate to the US you could help 120,000 to 125,000 refugees by creating a safe zone. If everyone truly is concerned about the health and welfare of these people wouldn't this approach make the most sense?

Of course it would, the reason it won't gain traction however is because then we would not have an excuse to make it political and virtue signal over human rights with our faux outrage.

 

[CowboyJD]

I think it would make sense to stop bringing in refugees and start working with other nations in the region to create safe zones for refugees. My only exception would be specifically targeted people's facing genocide and/or religious persecution.

Saudia Arabia has a 100,000 tent city, all units air conditioned. It is empty. Saw a statistic somewhere that said for the cost of every 10,000 refugees you relocate to the US you could help 120,000 to 125,000 refugees by creating a safe zone. If everyone truly is concerned about the health and welfare of these people wouldn't this approach make the most sense?

Of course it would, the reason it won't gain traction however is because then we would not have an excuse to make it political and virtue signal over human rights with our faux outrage.

That tent city is temporary lodging for pilgrims making hajj to Mecca.

Not exactly suitable for permanent relocation.

 

[ThorOdinson13]

That tent city is temporary lodging for pilgrims making hajj to Mecca.

Not exactly suitable for permanent relocation.

The idea is not for permanence. I wouldn't advocate for a tent being a permanent living arrangement for the rest of one's life.

 

[CBradSmith]

That tent city is temporary lodging for pilgrims making hajj to Mecca.

Not exactly suitable for permanent relocation.

Would any refugee city be with permanence in mind, or would it just need to be operational love going enough for the conflicts causing the migration to cease?

 

[CBradSmith]

Dammit @ThorOdinson13

BTW, of all the political grids, mine was most likely yours. But I'm a dummy; I couldn't link grid.

 

[ThorOdinson13]

Dammit @ThorOdinson13

BTW, of all the political grids, mine was most likely yours. But I'm a dummy; I couldn't link grid.

I noticed guns was right there around the same spot as well. Did mega take it again?

 

[CowboyJD]

Would any refugee city be with permanence in mind, or would it just need to be operational love going enough for the conflicts causing the migration to cease?

How long have conflicts in the Middle East being creating refugees? When would you anticipate refugees being able to go back to their countries of origin....for those conflicts to "cease"?

 

[squeak]

They don't go through your personal e-mails on the laptop do they?
I am all for opening a laptop, or turning on a cell phone , to make sure it is actually a phone and not a case with a bomb in it, but they should not go through personal info

We had one guy have his laptop and phone taken by Israel and mailed to him two weeks later. The only phone search that I'm aware of other than in Israel was done in Canada. In those instances I assume everything was searched.

Once you go through security at TSA I think just about anything is up for search if you want to board the plane or enter/leave a country.

 

[ThorOdinson13]

How long have conflicts in the Middle East being creating refugees? When would you anticipate refugees being able to go back to their countries of origin....for those conflicts to "cease"?

All the more reason to create safe zones. Get them out of harms way, allow them to get a plan, and immigrate within the region. No reason to be allowing them into western countries en masse. Bringing in military aged males from a culture that mostly supports the destruction of our own is akin to bringing in the Trojan horse.

 

[CBradSmith]

How long have conflicts in the Middle East being creating refugees? When would you anticipate refugees being able to go back to their countries of origin....for those conflicts to "cease"?

Since the days of Don Quixote, at least.
Whenever their particular hot zone cools.

 

[HighStickHarry]

How long have conflicts in the Middle East being creating refugees? When would you anticipate refugees being able to go back to their countries of origin....for those conflicts to "cease"?

To answer your first question I would say Islam has created refugees since day one of the religion.

 

[CowboyJD]

All the more reason to create safe zones. Get them out of harms way, allow them to get a plan, and immigrate within the region. No reason to be allowing them into western countries en masse. Bringing in military aged males from a culture that mostly supports the destruction of our own is akin to bringing in the Trojan horse.

I'm addressing the permanence issue.

It seems you guys saying you're not talking about permanent resettlement really are talking about permanent resettlement.

It also sounds like a lot of the "it's NOT a ban" folks here would prefer it actually be so....at least at a minimum for "military aged males".