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OK, I'm going to go there.

My "true beef" is not with execution. It's with the substantive decision to apply it to present green card holders and visa holders.....which I understand they are at least in part continuing to defend in court.

As for the discussion of issuing an EO purposefully far in one direction....to the point of (IMO) being unlawful...as a "negotiating position" to be left up to the checks and balances of the court is something that never should be done. Our officials should not be issuing unlawful EOs with an eye to negotiating back to lawfulness when checked by the courts. Doing that raises huge issues and concerns to me.

I'm certainly inclined to lean more in agreement with you when it's and EO that impacts rights/freedoms as opposed to an advancement of proposed legislation.

Though how do you, @CowboyJD , account for variance in pushback due to judicial activism?

*I'll take a stab at the answer...that there's always a higher court. And if a higher court doesn't take issue with a lower courts ruling, then legislative movement is the only recourse, if that avenue exists at all.
 
I'm certainly inclined to lean more in agreement with you when it's and EO that impacts rights/freedoms as opposed to an advancement of proposed legislation.

Though how do you, @CowboyJD , account for variance in pushback due to judicial activism?

*I'll take a stab at the answer...that there's always a higher court. And if a higher court doesn't take issue with a lower courts ruling, then legislative movement is the only recourse, if that avenue exists at all.

That's exactly the answer. There are checks and balances within checks and balances of the courts....higher courts all the way to the Supreme Court....judges only being appointed with advice and consent of the Senate after selection by the President....etc.
 
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Medic and I may not align on a lot of policy, but I respect the hell out of the wisdom he exhibits in a slow and steady consumption of reality along with the application of sufficient filters to aid in discerning what is real and what isn't. I respect the hell out of ANYBODY that does that.
Thank you sir. I feel the same way about you and most of the posters on this board. I'm definitely not devoid of my fair share of knee jerk idiot posts and I don't always have much in the way of wisdom, but I do try to be flexible in my own thoughts to account for things I don't know or haven't thought of, especially in thoughtful debate on here. I also enjoy trolling those who like trolling. :D

I was once a fairly straightforward lefty except about guns. I've never been religious (don't believe in God but I'm not someone who demands others respect my "atheism")and have never been super passionate about a lot of the mundane arguments over the years, like prayer in school (who cares, don't pray if you don't wan to) and abortion (I can't predict every possibility when it would/wouldn't be OK/necessary). I've always been passionate about human issues like gay marriage, equal opportunity, poverty, inner city violence, and accommodation of disabled persons. I've definitely become more pragmatic in my approach to the human issues over the years. 21 years doing my job is the biggest contributor to my shift. I don't do the theoretical exercises any longer because I've seen the results of a lot of the theory in reality.

My "true beef" is not with execution. It's with the substantive decision to apply it to present green card holders and visa holders.....which I understand they are at least in part continuing to defend in court.
Agree completely with this. Those who have already been vetted/processed and received refugee status/green cards/visas should not be affected retroactively.
 
Thank you sir. I feel the same way about you and most of the posters on this board. I'm definitely not devoid of my fair share of knee jerk idiot posts and I don't always have much in the way of wisdom, but I do try to be flexible in my own thoughts to account for things I don't know or haven't thought of, especially in thoughtful debate on here. I also enjoy trolling those who like trolling. :D

I was once a fairly straightforward lefty except about guns. I've never been religious (don't believe in God but I'm not someone who demands others respect my "atheism")and have never been super passionate about a lot of the mundane arguments over the years, like prayer in school (who cares, don't pray if you don't wan to) and abortion (I can't predict every possibility when it would/wouldn't be OK/necessary). I've always been passionate about human issues like gay marriage, equal opportunity, poverty, inner city violence, and accommodation of disabled persons. I've definitely become more pragmatic in my approach to the human issues over the years. 21 years doing my job is the biggest contributor to my shift. I don't do the theoretical exercises any longer because I've seen the results of a lot of the theory in reality.


Agree completely with this. Those who have already been vetted/processed and received refugee status/green cards/visas should not be affected retroactively.

Yeah, I've backed off the allure of theory as well. I believe it is a decent framework, but even the most robust models don't capture all of reality. So obviously there are places where theory breaks down or is insufficient.

Everything else is largely value system.

To expand on what I was saying about you earlier, you have the foresight to allow time to inform your opinion. I can only guess that that characteristic largely COMES from time on this earth. There really are realities that are not knowable until you have had sufficient time on earth to educate you with context.

When Obama was elected, I thought in my mind that he could push way left, there was reason to believe he might, but I also tried to temper that possibility with an openness that he may lead more in the middle. I consumed articles that praised some of his appointments as "good indicators" of this or that central tendency. In time, he showed me he was willing to shut out the opposing party and pass MASSIVE legislation on purely party line voting. That and the double speak he frequently exhibited certainly soured me on him.

With Trump, I voted a man who has real world experience, who hasn't been beholden to ideological (theoretical) purity but instead (I assume) knows that to be effective, the "deal" must be good enough for a degree of the oppositions buy-in. He seems largely agnostic on aggressively pushing "values based" initiatives, which is a relief from the past 4 years, and is largely focused on 3 or so big items....jobs, security (I'll place immigration under both of those umbrellas), and not involving the US in conflict unless the justification is absolutely necessary.

I'll hold him accountable to the impression he left me.
 
If he was, I doubt he would say yes. With that said, being opposed to refugees does not make one a racist, necessarily. I hope you don't think I was implying that he is.
I have no problem with green card holders and legal immigrants from those countries. I also think it should be easier to become a citizen for the right people (i.e. people looking to become Americans). Immigration reform is needed very badly.

Having said that, if Trump determines the refugee process is vetting these people and we are only accepting people like those I mentioned above, I accept that conclusion. So far the only people that I've heard say refugees go through an effective vetting process has been people like my brother-in-law who I don't trust. Maybe he and others are right. I don't know and don't have time to review them myself.
 
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With Trump, I voted a man who has real world experience, who hasn't been beholden to ideological (theoretical) purity but instead (I assume) knows that to be effective, the "deal" must be good enough for a degree of the oppositions buy-in. He seems largely agnostic on aggressively pushing "values based" initiatives, which is a relief from the past 4 years, and is largely focused on 3 or so big items....jobs, security (I'll place immigration under both of those umbrellas), and not involving the US in conflict unless the justification is absolutely necessary.

I'll hold him accountable to the impression he left me.
Very well stated.

The experiences that have shaped me come in large part from 21 years of being a paramedic. It isn't so much time on the earth for me as I'm only 44, but from what I've done during that time. The job forces you to become a very good listener of what the patient is telling you and what they aren't, and what their illness is telling you and what it isn't. Failing to listen can mean failing the patient. I had to train my brain to be a good listener as I was not one by birth given gift. If I were young again I'm fairly certain I'd be on high dose methamphetamine salts for ADHD. Now that my brain is trained that way, it's just part of the way I process information.

My daughters hate it when I "interview" their friends, which is much different that what you would expect in an interrogation. I'd be very good at an actual interrogation, at least in my mind. I once accidentally got a new coworker to tell me all about how his wife left him to have a lesbian affair with his mother. Talk about awkward.:D
 
I'll admit to not reading this entire thread. But all I've seen from @Been Jammin is someone being obtuse. Is it purposeful?

obtuse.gif
 
I think BJ is probably just to good a person to believe that others aren't at their core, the same as him.

Me, I know that there are sharks and what sharks eat.
 
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Very well stated.

The experiences that have shaped me come in large part from 21 years of being a paramedic. It isn't so much time on the earth for me as I'm only 44, but from what I've done during that time. The job forces you to become a very good listener of what the patient is telling you and what they aren't, and what their illness is telling you and what it isn't. Failing to listen can mean failing the patient. I had to train my brain to be a good listener as I was not one by birth given gift. If I were young again I'm fairly certain I'd be on high dose methamphetamine salts for ADHD. Now that my brain is trained that way, it's just part of the way I process information.

My daughters hate it when I "interview" their friends, which is much different that what you would expect in an interrogation. I'd be very good at an actual interrogation, at least in my mind. I once accidentally got a new coworker to tell me all about how his wife left him to have a lesbian affair with his mother. Talk about awkward.:D

Hahaha

Ironically, I almost mentioned learning to "listen" as a huge turning point for me. In my case, it was a long distance relationship that was going sour. I tried and tried and tried to communicate with her. Then, when it seemed all was lost, the "listening" light bulb came on.

It's pretty much the most intimate skill one can learn, in my opinion. People will tell you ALL kinds of things that they don't realize they are revealing. And when you learn to ask a few strategic questions, it adds yet another layer of insight.

I tell people it's like learning 5 languages at once.
 
Hahaha

Ironically, I almost mentioned learning to "listen" as a huge turning point for me. In my case, it was a long distance relationship that was going sour. I tried and tried and tried to communicate with her. Then, when it seemed all was lost, the "listening" light bulb came on.

It's pretty much the most intimate skill one can learn, in my opinion. People will tell you ALL kinds of things that they don't realize they are revealing. And when you learn to ask a few strategic questions, it adds yet another layer of insight.

I tell people it's like learning 5 languages at once.
All very true and thanks for sharing.

I'm pretty sure I could have a decent career in sales but I've grown to hate people in general, have a very twisted sense of humor that doesn't mesh well with the business world, and can't filter the sarcasm and cynicism very effectively any more. I can control myself in short bursts but definitely not long enough to establish a career in sales. It has affected both of my kids. My 12 year old refers to my wife as her "garden rake" since "ho" doesn't sound good in public. I suggested that she use neither. Her reply was that she would take my advice into consideration but to not expect any results.
 
Which I personally have no problem with.

My objections to the EO was the revocation/suspension of immigration from green card and visa holders that had already been vetted and approved with the stroke of a pen.

That is being addressed in the courts now, and I'm good with that.

Just my $.02 for the day on this topic.
This is the position of anybody with a functioning brain.
 
This is the position of anybody with a functioning brain.

Weird.

I received a good bit of criticism here for taking this position in the immediate aftermath of its issuance.

Also, you may have just concluded that Trump doesn't have a functioning brain because he definitely has a problem with this being resolved in court.

Just saying.
 
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Weird.

I received a good bit of criticism here for taking this position in the immediate aftermath of its issuance.

Also, you may have just concluded that Trump doesn't have a functioning brain because he definitely has a problem with this being resolved in court.

Just saying.
Nice edit and assumed you would say that. Don't have a comeback.
 
I don't recall that but I only read about 1 out of 10 posts so I probably missed it.

You definitely did.

Also, as I edited my post after you responded....you may have just suggested that Trump doesn't have a functioning brain because he is definitely NOT okay with this being addressed by the courts and continues to defend suspension of travel for present visa holders.
 
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You definitely did.

Als, as I edited my post after you responded....you may have just suggested that Trump doesn't have a functioning brain because he is definitely NOT okay with this being addressed by the courts and continues to defend suspension of travel for present visa holders.
He may or may not have a functioning brain. Still to be determined. One SCOTUS, two to go. My bar is pretty low.
 
If killing terrorists creates more terrorists I wonder what blaming white males for everything and also constantly trying to frame them does to the white supremacy market place. probably just makes everyone more woke.

Jesus. Race race race race. You carry on about race more than Jesse Jackson in his prime. Its constant.
 
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