Keep Your Powder Dry

[Ponca Dan]

Not sure what you mean by edited version, so I'll assume you meant abbreviated.

Prior to 1906 there was little regulation in regards to food and drugs. That gave us such wonderful medicines like heroin to treat morphine addiction and diphtheria antitoxin from the horse named Jim. Turns out heroin doesn't exactly treat morphine addiction and Jim's diphtheria antitoxin might not have killed people if it had been tested after Jim contracted tetanus. Those types of incidents brought us the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 which addressed adulteration and labeling of food and drug products (we put ground animal bones in candy bars because the kids love it!). This Act also brought us the formal creation of the FDA.

Enter the 1930's, despite the advances in prevention of adulterated and mislabeled stuff, many folks died because of what was being used, not how it was labeled. Women were lethally poisoned by a properly labeled drug called Radithor used for the ever popular but quackish treatment by radiation hormesis. Some ladies were blinded and one died using Lash Lure as a way to have permanent mascara (that's what it was marketed for). Turns out Lash Lure contained a chemical that was incompatible with human use. And the kicker was Elixir Sulfanilamide taken by folks for infections. At least 105 people (71 adults and 34 children, including 6 people in Tulsa) died after ingesting it because the pharmaceutical company used previously untested diethylene glycol as the solvent instead of alcohol because of the naturally sweet taste. Under the 1906 law, the company did nothing wrong as the label accurately described the contents as 72% diethylene glycol, 10% sulfanilamide, and a few flavorings and coloring. Public outrage demanded the government step in to protect consumers from further harm, which caused the passage of the 1938 Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act that gave the FDA much more oversight including food, drug, and cosmetic safety.

Abbreviated. Much more fascinating reading out there if you have an interest. To this day the FDA is a protectionist agency. In fact, plenty of folks in the medical community don't feel it does enough to protect folks from pharmaceutical and medical device companies. There is an expansive list of lawsuits because of underreported adverse events and device failures from the companies that manufacture and submit their evidence to the FDA for approval. The fact that these companies can afford to pay the settlements should tell you all you need to know about what would happen without government oversight. Physicians don't want to cause harm to their patients with dangerous drugs and terrible devices, and it's clear the pharmaceutical and medical device industry is OK with cutting corners to increase the bottom line.

The key sentence in this post is where you said medical people feel the FDA doesn't do enough to protect us from pharmaceutical and medical device companies. Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Medic007]

By the way Ponca Dan, I did appreciate the humor on vacuums and shoe laces. I like your thought provoking posting style and hope you keep bringing it to the board.

 

[Ponca Dan]

My head hurts after reading this entire thread.

My God, Headhunter! Do you have a death wish or something? Kudos to you for your stick-to-it-ness!

 

[Medic007]

The key sentence in this post is where you said medical people feel the FDA doesn't do enough to protect us from pharmaceutical and medical device companies. Why do you suppose that is?

Hindsight is always the case when looking at drugs and devices that have caused harm and death. Most often it is the underreporting of adverse events in clinical trials. The FDA doesn't do the research, they only review it and monitor post marketing data. If we're comparing it to Consumer Reports, who funds a private company to do what the FDA does? Consumer Reports runs on subscriptions which is not exactly a good funding source for pharmaceuticals and medical devices.

 

[Ponca Dan]

By the way Ponca Dan, I did appreciate the humor on vacuums and shoe laces. I like your thought provoking posting style and hope you keep bringing it to the board.

Thanks. I've been worried I have overstepped all propriety. I'm an old man. This afternoon has been both exhilarating and exhausting. I probably ought to leave the grandstand for a few days.

 

[Medic007]

Thanks. I've been worried I have overstepped all propriety. I'm an old man. This afternoon has been both exhilarating and exhausting. I probably ought to leave the grandstand for a few days.

No way! Controversial stuff is always good for mental exercise, especially when talking politics. Cowboy JD hasn't made a good board living worrying about what people on here think or feel, and he's probably one of the most respected posters because of it.

 

[MegaPoke]

Sorry to take so long getting back to you, Mega. Your comment/questions are legitimate and deserve an answer.

I will grant you the Neocons had grave concerns about Trump. He was/is a loose cannon they feared they could not control. They were against Brexit, he was for it. They hoped for a two pronged enemy in ISIS and Russia. He seemed to want detente with Russia. He appeared to be a huge chink in the gears. Maybe you could call their concern hatred, but I think it was fear more than anything. They were afraid they would be left out in the cold away from the engine of power.

McCain, Graham and Krystal were openly hostile. Then Trump started putting together his national security team, which consisted of generals that basically agreed with the Neocons. McCain and Graham practically danced with delight when they got named. These were people whose ears they could bend. Bolton would have been icing on the cake, but Rand Paul pretty much single handedly put a stop to that. But Bolton will be given a seat at the table. And despite whatever his title will be he will have influence.

McConnel is a squish that will be flattened any time he steps out of line. He knows that and he knows Trump has a lot of support in his state of Kentucky. He will fall in line when he is told. Ryan may balk a little, but he does not want to be primaried in the next election, so his acquiescence will be harder to come by than the squish, but Trump and Bannon are expert at bullying. He'll come around.

Christy and Gingrich have not been frozen out. Christy would be a political liability at this time; he just needs to give it a little time to let the heat die down. Gingrich is more valuable being a pundit on Fox News and other media. I'm sure he will enjoy many private meetings in the White House.

I am puzzled by your puzzlement re a global economy. China fiddled with their currency which impoverishes their own people and enriches us with lower priced goods. Look at the tire industry. American tire manufacturers claim to be hurting because China is dumping cheap tires in our country. Get it? Tire manufacturers want the government to step in and make you and me pay for tires at prices the American manufacturers want to charge. So millions of us have to pay out the nose for tires so the local manufacturers will be happy. The free flow of goods and services is a boon to our economy. Trump and Bannon are blithering idiots!

Your comments regarding constitutional restraints on the President are painfully laughable after our experience with the floppy-eared socialist that preceded him. Presidents, judges, legislators - all of them view the constitution as a hindrance, nothing to be taken too seriously.

Yes, his sketchy EO was shot down temporarily, but why the hell do Presidents have EO authority in the first place? Like Obama, Trump will issue EO's when it suits him, just like a third world tyrant.

The only "support" I've seen Rand Paul give this administration is on TV when he asked reporters to show him the legislation Trump has proposed to restrict the rights of minorities and gays. You must know more than me about any other support.

The only saving grace for me in Trump's victory is the humiliating defeat of Hillary Clinton, surely one of the most corrupt and evil politicians in our nation's history. Isn't it sad that has to be the reason I'm glad (sort of) that Trump won?

A lot to address here. Stay tuned

 

[JimmyBob]

A lot to address here. Stay tuned

Film at eleven?

 

[MegaPoke]

I will grant you the Neocons had grave concerns about Trump. He was/is a loose cannon they feared they could not control. They were against Brexit, he was for it. They hoped for a two pronged enemy in ISIS and Russia. He seemed to want detente with Russia. He appeared to be a huge chink in the gears. Maybe you could call their concern hatred, but I think it was fear more than anything. They were afraid they would be left out in the cold away from the engine of power.

You are naive if you believe this. The neocons are not simply "concerned". Far more than that. They are facing an existential threat - now from within. Cannot be trusted.

McCain, Graham and Krystal were openly hostile. Then Trump started putting together his national security team, which consisted of generals that basically agreed with the Neocons. McCain and Graham practically danced with delight when they got named. These were people whose ears they could bend. Bolton would have been icing on the cake, but Rand Paul pretty much single handedly put a stop to that. But Bolton will be given a seat at the table. And despite whatever his title will be he will have influence.

McCain dancing with joy? Google "Trump McCain" and tell me how much dancing is going on. Spoiler - nothing but stories about their feud.

I am puzzled by your puzzlement re a global economy. China fiddled with their currency which impoverishes their own people and enriches us with lower priced goods. Look at the tire industry. American tire manufacturers claim to be hurting because China is dumping cheap tires in our country. Get it? Tire manufacturers want the government to step in and make you and me pay for tires at prices the American manufacturers want to charge. So millions of us have to pay out the nose for tires so the local manufacturers will be happy. The free flow of goods and services is a boon to our economy. Trump and Bannon are blithering idiots!

Anecdotal tire examples don't really prove your point. This is also the kind of thing that reflexively makes me defend them - "blithering idiots" which is silly and obviously not true.

Your comments regarding constitutional restraints on the President are painfully laughable after our experience with the floppy-eared socialist that preceded him. Presidents, judges, legislators - all of them view the constitution as a hindrance, nothing to be taken too seriously.

"Painfully laughable" isn't taking this to a place you want to go. Let's stay respectable here.

Trump's immigration EO was arguably flirting with constitutional problems - I've heard compelling arguments both ways.

However, the one verifiable constitutionally verifiable action the man has made is the nomination of an originslist to the Supreme Court.

Obviously the socialist piece of shit before him didn't care about the Constitution - and this is the biggest thing I'll judge Trump by - but so far, the SC nomination alone is enough for a lot of optimism in my opinion.

Yes, his sketchy EO was shot down temporarily, but why the hell do Presidents have EO authority in the first place? Like Obama, Trump will issue EO's when it suits him, just like a third world tyrant.

Hyperbolic comparisons to tyrants are not an argument.

Also - I pointed out during Bush and Obama that someday their precedents would bite their supporters in the ass when someone who isn't a neocon or progressive was in office. Don't like it, blame them.

The only "support" I've seen Rand Paul give this administration is on TV when he asked reporters to show him the legislation Trump has proposed to restrict the rights of minorities and gays. You must know more than me about any other support.

https://oklahomastate.forums.rivals.com/threads/i-stand-with-rand.58931/

The only saving grace for me in Trump's victory is the humiliating defeat of Hillary Clinton, surely one of the most corrupt and evil politicians in our nation's history. Isn't it sad that has to be the reason I'm glad (sort of) that Trump won?

Even if that is truly the only saving grace, it's more than enough to be happy about Trump winning. The script said she was supposed to win and I believe the next step was some hybrid of a North American union and the EU.

Globalism as a borderless government/society is - in my opinion - the greatest single threat our liberties and our nation's sovereignty face. Neocons and progressives were/are both working to that end. Much bigger threat than anything you've outlined.

 

[Ponca Dan]

You are naive if you believe this. The neocons are not simply "concerned". Far more than that. They are facing an existential threat - now from within. Cannot be trusted.



McCain dancing with joy? Google "Trump McCain" and tell me how much dancing is going on. Spoiler - nothing but stories about their feud.



Anecdotal tire examples don't really prove your point. This is also the kind of thing that reflexively makes me defend them - "blithering idiots" which is silly and obviously not true.



"Painfully laughable" isn't taking this to a place you want to go. Let's stay respectable here.

Trump's immigration EO was arguably flirting with constitutional problems - I've heard compelling arguments both ways.

However, the one verifiable constitutionally verifiable action the man has made is the nomination of an originslist to the Supreme Court.

Obviously the socialist piece of shit before him didn't care about the Constitution - and this is the biggest thing I'll judge Trump by - but so far, the SC nomination alone is enough for a lot of optimism in my opinion.



Hyperbolic comparisons to tyrants are not an argument.

Also - I pointed out during Bush and Obama that someday their precedents would bite their supporters in the ass when someone who isn't a neocon or progressive was in office. Don't like it, blame them.



https://oklahomastate.forums.rivals.com/threads/i-stand-with-rand.58931/



Even if that is truly the only saving grace, it's more than enough to be happy about Trump winning. The script said she was supposed to win and I believe the next step was some hybrid of a North American union and the EU.

Globalism as a borderless government/society is - in my opinion - the greatest single threat our liberties and our nation's sovereignty face. Neocons and progressives were/are both working to that end. Much bigger threat than anything you've outlined.

Perhaps I didn't make my point as I had hoped re John McCain (and most of the rest of the neocon world). They may very well hate Trump, I don't know their hearts. Frankly I think they are happy to work with anybody as long as they have a seat at the table. Their "happiness" is over the appointment of his national security team. Hyperbole on my part to say they danced with joy, I admit, but they are very satisfied with the people he named (for the most part), the generals in particular, as the neocons believe they are people they can "work with."

We are obviously talking past each other when it comes to "globalism." You are seeing it as a one-world government, which, I agree, is a great danger to our liberty. I am talking about "economic globalism," our willingness to trade anything with anybody. If I choose to buy tires made in China for $800 instead of tires made in Wisconsin for $1000 that's my business, not the government's. Protectionism as proposed by the "economic nationalists" will harm everybody in this country. Trump is threatening car manufacturers with import tarriffs and excess taxes if they don't stay in America. That is government involvement at its worst.

As a long standing advocate of free markets and free minds, and as a person who has lived through LBJ's war economy, Nixon's price controls (which led to gas shortages that kept me in a line that extended for 10 blocks so I could buy a maximum of 10 gallons of gas); I survived Jimmy Carter's era of malaise, George W's "having to destroy capitalism to save it," the dot.com bubble, the real estate crash, I have to stand back and declare that anyone who calls for more of the same blithering idiots. I'm a simple working man from Oklahoma and I can see the error. Why can't they? Why can't you?

I don't know the history of EO's. Where did they come from, and how did they insinuate themselves into our form of government? Surely you can see they are more in line with the actions of a third world tyrant than an elected representative. "Painfully laughable" is most certainly a place I want to go.

I stand corrected on Rand Paul. It breaks my heart to see him turn his back on his father's legacy.

I tentatively agree with you about Gorsuch. Forgive me if I take a wait and see approach.
I thought John Roberts was a good choice only to see him betray the constitution he promised to preserve over ObamaCare. I even Thought David Souter would be good - we were assured by all the conservative pundits he would be excellent - only to see him "legalize" eminent domain to absurd levels. Hell, a lot of conservatives thought Kennedy would protect the constitution, only to see him become a mishmash.

Hope I didn't leave out anything. I'm exhausted. Lets come back to this in a few days. I'll leave the last word to you.

 

[MegaPoke]

Perhaps I didn't make my point as I had hoped re John McCain (and most of the rest of the neocon world). They may very well hate Trump, I don't know their hearts. Frankly I think they are happy to work with anybody as long as they have a seat at the table. Their "happiness" is over the appointment of his national security team. Hyperbole on my part to say they danced with joy, I admit, but they are very satisfied with the people he named (for the most part), the generals in particular, as the neocons believe they are people they can "work with."

We are obviously talking past each other when it comes to "globalism." You are seeing it as a one-world government, which, I agree, is a great danger to our liberty. I am talking about "economic globalism," our willingness to trade anything with anybody. If I choose to buy tires made in China for $800 instead of tires made in Wisconsin for $1000 that's my business, not the government's. Protectionism as proposed by the "economic nationalists" will harm everybody in this country. Trump is threatening car manufacturers with import tarriffs and excess taxes if they don't stay in America. That is government involvement at its worst.

As a long standing advocate of free markets and free minds, and as a person who has lived through LBJ's war economy, Nixon's price controls (which led to gas shortages that kept me in a line that extended for 10 blocks so I could buy a maximum of 10 gallons of gas); I survived Jimmy Carter's era of malaise, George W's "having to destroy capitalism to save it," the dot.com bubble, the real estate crash, I have to stand back and declare that anyone who calls for more of the same blithering idiots. I'm a simple working man from Oklahoma and I can see the error. Why can't they? Why can't you?

I don't know the history of EO's. Where did they come from, and how did they insinuate themselves into our form of government? Surely you can see they are more in line with the actions of a third world tyrant than an elected representative. "Painfully laughable" is most certainly a place I want to go.

I stand corrected on Rand Paul. It breaks my heart to see him turn his back on his father's legacy.

I tentatively agree with you about Gorsuch. Forgive me if I take a wait and see approach.
I thought John Roberts was a good choice only to see him betray the constitution he promised to preserve over ObamaCare. I even Thought David Souter would be good - we were assured by all the conservative pundits he would be excellent - only to see him "legalize" eminent domain to absurd levels. Hell, a lot of conservatives thought Kennedy would protect the constitution, only to see him become a mishmash.

Hope I didn't leave out anything. I'm exhausted. Lets come back to this in a few days. I'll leave the last word to you.

Wednesday night. CNN town hall 8:00 central. Featuring John McCain and Lindsey Graham.

Watch it and tell me how happy the neocons are with Trump.