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Julius Jones

07pilt said:
Gonna need @CowboyJD to verify that the governor can bind future governors in such a way
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Haven't done the research to say with certainty, but I do know future governors could pardon him for sure, so I HIGHLY doubt he can keep future Governor's from allowing him to seek further commutation or clemency.

And I KNOW that the governor cannot keep him from pursuing post-conviction relief and Habeas Corpus relief through the courts.
 
SquatchinPoke said:
Man that makes me nervous I am going to have the kid with me and my sister comes in from Cali that night so I am stuck up there for a bit. Guess I will make sure I at least throw my pistol in the car. This rioting is so dumb. How does burning down where we all live help?
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My statement was mostly tongue in cheek.

You'll be fine either way.

Especially now.
 
OKSTATE1 said:
I worked for Bud Welch when I was 13 at the Texaco station at 39th and Penn in OKC.

His daughter Julie died in the Murray Bombing. He is a devout Catholic and his son is one of my best friends. As such, Bud was anti-death penalty and was the only Oklahoman pretty much against it for McVeigh. He was hated by many in this state for his stance.

Bud spent probably 10 years traveling the country and the world speaking out against the death penalty. Lectured at many Catholic Universities around the world as well as many other venues. He was on national TV during the whole McVeigh trial, etc…

Bud preached forgiveness.

I lost a family member due to the negligence of another family member. It took me a long time to both forgive that person and god for what happened, but I was never able to get over the terrible pain until I forgave that person for what happened as well as the random life circumstance that caused it. Hate and anger consumes you, absolutely eats you alive and kills you slowly. I know.

Not certain I could have taken Bud’s position, ever. I also posted earlier my feelings on the death penalty, 50/50 on it and the voters and public conscience has a right to decide, and I also expressed the need to take the penalty out of the shadows. McVeigh I thought deserved what he got.

Many states consider a life sentence Justice, many states consider the death penalty Justice. Each state has a right to determine what it wants.

I can believe for many family members that are victims, that capital punishment for the perp does not heal them. For some I hope it does.

The true path to healing IMO, is absolutely the most difficult step and impossible for some. And that is to find god’s grace to forgive them. That does not mean not holding them accountable. I don’t think I could ever forgive someone for intentionally murdering a family member. I would feel the anger and hate, and would want an eye for an eye. For sure.

But I would also be praying to god to give me the power to forgive that individual and to forgive the random life circumstances that lead to that murder. That would not be for the perp, but myself. That would be to stop the anger and hate from ruining my life every day living in misery with the anger and hate, and each day you are slowing dying for it.

Death penalty should be a great deterrent to motivate others to never kill another human being. It should be shown on TV, to gain the greatest deterrent impact.

They might get Justice, but long term peace only comes from within. Stop the murders. Show the public what happens to them if they murder someone if you are going to do it in the State of Oklahoma. It worked in France back in the day.

For all victims I pray for your suffering and loss, I pray you get more than Justice and one day receive god’s Grace that allows you to forgive and put it behind you forever and live a life free from being consumed with hate and anger. I bet few can get there, somehow Bud did.

Sometimes I feel like I witnessed a miracle for him to be able to do that.
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Remarkable. Wish I had that kind of grace.
 
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2012Bearcat said:
I have a hard time having any sympathy for a person that had no sympathy for their victim. Where is the concern for the victim's right not to be murdered?
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I have no problem with the death penalty in Oklahoma. But I do not understand how for some that do not believe in the death penalty somehow that equates to no empathy for the victim. Are you saying in the states that do not have the death penalty there is no empathy for the victim? No justice at all? Only capital punishment equates to justice?

I might be wrong, but I see very few people within Oklahoma and certainly people that I know, that want the man set free.

Maybe they need to allow for victim impact input in regards to states that have the death penalty. Perhaps if the family does not want someone to receive the death penalty that input should be strongly considered, as well as if they do want the penalty enforced.

As for the family of Jones? Frankly I don't know of one family that would not be begging for their son to not be put death.

As for his lack of being repentant if he is guilty? Guy has spent half his life in prison, probably going to spend the rest of his life in jail, and now that he is off death row I suppose will be among the general prison population which for him will not be a cake walk? He will also have to answer to his maker.

It is what it is. The death penalty is a moral issue for those who believe in the sanctity of all human life, that does not mean they hold no compassion for victims.
 
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Death penalty isn't a deterrent to crime. Also does not provide closure to the victims families.
 
Poketologist said:
Oklahoma needs prison reform. We are a huge incarcerator of people and are actually the #1 incarcerator of women in the world. I have a hard time believing that Oklahoma women are intrinsically more prone to felonious activity than anywhere else in the world.

Of course, I could be wrong. Most of you haven't met my college girlfriend.
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20 years ago I rooted for the criminal when I watched cops. Now that I have kids I wouldn’t care if they shot more people and locked up more people. If you live your life trying not to harm people, you are overwhelmingly safe when it comes to the criminal justice system.
 
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Poketologist said:
Death penalty isn't a deterrent to crime. Also does not provide closure to the victims families.
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Am always skeptical of studies that portray the outcome of any actions against majority public opinion. When you can’t see the whole survey, questions or methodology then it is probably a study with a pre-determined outcome.

I personally could care less if the death penalty deters crime, it still removes 100% the possibility this individual will harm another person, ever, including other inmates.

Prison isn’t a deterrent to crime since the rate of recidivism is incredibly high and honestly what is an acceptable rate of re-offense to innocent people once someone is released a second, third, or forth time? I say 0%. Have you noticed how many people reoffend within days of being released on a no cash bond? The fact is we have degenerate, scumbag sociopaths that CAN NEVER BE REHABILITATED, giving any of them the benefit of a doubt to get out of prison and rob, kill, rape again is absolutely unacceptable to me.

I seriously doubt that many people get closure after their loved one is murdered by a sociopath. The fact is when you execute a scumbag your removing the possibility of another innocent person being killed. If someone killed my sisters, or nephew, niece etc., can tell you when I watched them get executed I wouldn’t feel closure. Because the sense of loss would be there until my dying day. I will feel a sense of peace though, because I would know that scumbag would never harm another person, period!

As with any tragedy your inner peace and closure is to forgive and accept that you’ll be reunited with your loved one in heaven. But forgiveness/closure don’t have to run counter to seeing justice done either.

All that said, if the family was okay with this then I have no room to complain with the commutation and applaud the gov’s decision based on their wishes.
 
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Poketologist said:
Death penalty isn't a deterrent to crime. Also does not provide closure to the victims families.
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When less than 10% of convicted murders get put to death and the sentence isn’t carried out for well over a decade on average, there is no mental connection made between the act and the response

if you want it to be a deterrent Thor action and the result have to be connected
 
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soonerinlOUisiana said:
Neither of which is the purpose of the death penalty. It is implemented to punish, and to remove from existence the most evil of persons.
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That is your opinion. Going back to the 70’s the debate was always on deterrent value and at that time everyone agreed that was the issue. The politicization of the death penalty has lead to this argument for pro death penalty advocates.

I don’t need the state to kill someone in my name for me to feel better about the empathy for victims or for me to feel safer.

The greatest societal value is always preventative, televising it offers that opportunity.

When France stopped public execution the murder rate drastically went up. They brought it back and the murder rate went down. Obviously they stopped the practice. I know this because I won a debate regarding the death penalty in a Catholic High School and I took the “Pro” side and did so against one of the top students in our class, as I was as well. Won a debate in a school that religiously does not believe in the death penalty. The person I debated was lazy and just repeated the mantra back then that the death penalty has never shown a deterrent value in the history of mankind.

It needs to be brought out of the shadows for deterrent value. If those who are for it now, after actually seeing it, finds the act barbaric so be it. We should not be afraid to take hiden state acts behind curtains out to the open, too much of that going on today.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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OKSTATE1 said:
That is your opinion. Going back to the 70’s the debate was always on deterrent value and at that time everyone agreed that was the issue. The politicization of the death penalty has lead to this argument for pro death penalty advocates.

I don’t need the state to kill someone in my name for me to feel better about the empathy for victims or for me to feel safer.

The greatest societal value is always preventative, televising it offers that opportunity.

When France stopped public execution the murder rate drastically went up. They brought it back and the murder rate went down. Obviously they stopped the practice. I know this because I won a debate regarding the death penalty in a Catholic High School and I took the “Pro” side and did so against one of the top students in our class, as I was as well. Won a debate in a school that religiously does not believe in the death penalty. The person I debated was lazy and just repeated the mantra back then that the death penalty has never shown a deterrent value in the history of mankind.

It needs to be brought out of the shadows for deterrent value. If those who are for it now, after actually seeing it, finds the act barbaric so be it. We should not be afraid to take hiden state acts behind curtains out to the open, too much of that going on today.

Just my 2 cents.
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My reasoning is based on decades of legal opinions and treatises. DP proponents use victims’ families to appeal to people’s emotions, but it really isn’t about them. It’s about society in general, which is why the state/commonwealth/people are the “plaintiff” in a criminal case.

BTW, When you were in HS debate, were you trained to speak as fast as the “disclaimer” language in a radio commercial, or like the guy in the old fed ex commercials? I judged a HS debate session about 20 years ago. Never again!!!! I was disappointed that I couldn’t disqualify both kids for speaking so fast as to be unintelligible. I’ve asked S&D teachers over the years why they speak that way and got no better explanation than “because that’s how they do it”.
 
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soonerinlOUisiana said:
My reasoning is based on decades of legal opinions and treatises. DP proponents use victims’ families to appeal to people’s emotions, but it really isn’t about them. It’s about society in general, which is why the state/commonwealth/people are the “plaintiff” in a criminal case.

BTW, When you were in HS debate, were you trained to speak as fast as the “disclaimer” language in a radio commercial, or like the guy in the old fed ex commercials? I judged a HS debate session about 20 years ago. Never again!!!! I was disappointed that I couldn’t disqualify both kids for speaking so fast as to be unintelligible. I’ve asked S&D teachers over the years why they speak that way and got no better explanation than “because that’s how they do it”.
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That was so long ago I can't really remember, but I don't recall being rushed. Part of that is because I was well prepared. Took me a long time to find the reference material to be able to properly document what had happened in France in regards to cancelling and bringing back public execution. I knew she was going to claim no one ever has proven it was a deterrent (what the school taught to put forward their religious beliefs), I let her state that before I put forward that documentation. I think that information surprised a lot of people. That was before you had google.

She also claimed that the state was responsible for the death penalty and for basically killing someone and it was wrong.

I asked her if she ran a stop sign on her way to school and got a ticket, knowing it was illegal to run a stop sign, was it her fault if she received a ticket? She said yes. After she said answered yes she turned red. I told her the death penalty was no different, if you break the law and you are caught, it is that individual's responsibility, not the state.

She was arrogant and assumed she was on the right side morally and that was all she needed, someone that might have assumed a serious debate (deck stacked against me because of the religious beliefs of the school) would have been better prepared.
 
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OKSTATE1 said:
Good chance it would have more deterrent value if it was televised. It would also allow the public full transparency and if they really supported the penalty.
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That's a great idea. Except it's freaking sick.

I've got the feeling that most of you have never seen a person die. In my line of work I've probably seen 200 people die.
 
Once again it seems we've locked horns on an issue.

At least I've heard some really solid arguments here and not a bunch of conspiracy theory GAB website wackadoo bullsh!t. More like the 24/7 boards used to be like.
 
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soonerinlOUisiana said:
My reasoning is based on decades of legal opinions and treatises. DP proponents use victims’ families to appeal to people’s emotions, but it really isn’t about them. It’s about society in general, which is why the state/commonwealth/people are the “plaintiff” in a criminal case.

BTW, When you were in HS debate, were you trained to speak as fast as the “disclaimer” language in a radio commercial, or like the guy in the old fed ex commercials? I judged a HS debate session about 20 years ago. Never again!!!! I was disappointed that I couldn’t disqualify both kids for speaking so fast as to be unintelligible. I’ve asked S&D teachers over the years why they speak that way and got no better explanation than “because that’s how they do it”.
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My daughter was awesome at debate, she used to beat seniors in high school as a 7th grader and finished 3rd in the state as a Freshman before she got burned out. And yes they used to train how to speak quickly and clearly and articulately, even practiced voice exercises. They also read history, philosophy, economics, and mythology. Kept things interesting.
 
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Poketologist said:
That's a great idea. Except it's freaking sick.

I've got the feeling that most of you have never seen a person die. In my line of work I've probably seen 200 people die.
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Look, in earlier post I talked about how hard it was for me to recently put down a dog with the proper medications that they can’t get for humans.

The fact it is not easy to watch people die is why it needs to be televised. People need to see what they are voting for. Otherwise it is like offing someone in a video game, not even that realistic.

I personally believe if it was televised that many people would come around to not wanting it. You can’t get sick over what is sanitized and not seen.

Use to be capital punishment was at night. News would come on, show tape of the candle light vigil at the state Penn, followed by state announcement of time of death, followed by witness statement, followed by hearse leaving in the dark from state Penn, followed by the weather and sports.

If it did not sicken people and was a deterrent at least we gain prevention.

But I think that once the public saw this and it became real, saw botched executions, the collective conscience of society would change.
 
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Poketologist said:
That's just the most horrible fùckng idea ever.
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I've seen people die....because of a bad decision. Seeing those executed for heinous crimes they committed, why not show it. Maybe pay for view with the money raised going to the victims families. Back in the day executions were public, nothing like taking your children there and pointing out to them....see this is what happens when you're a scumbag criminal, as the scumbag criminal jerks around on the end of a rope.

Just because you've seen 200 people die, doesn't make you an authority of why no one else should see people die, especially those that are scumbag criminals. The idiot president spent 50 years in public office and still doesn't know anything about governance. Him acting as an authoritative voice on anything is repulsive.

And I'm not really bagging on you Poketologist....am glad your here and enjoy your posts, your operating from a point of the spectrum that allows for a much different streak of morality. Nothing in life is a deterrent unless it is used, used swiftly and use widely. People bitch about the drug cocktails now being inhumane. Well when you fight electrocution, fight hanging, fight firing squads etc., then your left with the next method. But whatever that method is, it is still better then what the scumbag criminal did to his/her victim(s) so they need to quite being a pussy, man up to your deeds and go to your death knowing your being executed because your a scumbag, vicious sociopath who can't be trusted around human beings ever again.
 
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