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Jon Snow speculation

Been Jammin

Been Jammin

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Jun 27, 2003
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I know are two other threads where I could have posted this, but one is more of general show discussion and the other went into a bit of a different direction. There are possible spoilers in here for any of you that are in the process of reading the books, but mostly this is speculation on my part.

After watching the first episode of the season, I think one of the most interesting things is what didn't happen. Specifically, what caught my attention is that Melisandre saw Jon's body and then decided that it was getting late and it was time to just go to bed. She did not immediately resurrect him.

Let's look at some of the theories as to what would happen to Jon after he died.

1). He would warg into Ghost...at least temporarily.
This seems like it would be very difficult for HBO to pull off. The viewer can't read Ghost's mind (as opposed to the book reader). So, how would HBO do that? Would it be like watching an episode of "Lassie"? I can see Dolorous Ed saying, "What's that boy? What are you trying to tell us? Shake your head for No and nod your head for Yes". I suppose they could have Kit Harrington narrate Ghost's thoughts, but that would seem to not fit either. The only way that I could see HBO doing it would be to have Jon tell the viewer that he was in Ghost's head after Jon has been resurrected.

2). Jon will be burned on a funeral pyre and will rise from the dead to become Azor Ahai.
I think this is somewhat realistic, but the question I have now is...why would they burn him? I thought it made sense that they would burn him at Castle Black to keep him from becoming a Wight. But, that no longer makes sense. The Snow loyalists are barricaded in a room with Jon's body. They can't burn the body in the room, and they aren't free to just go outside and make a funeral pyre. It looks pretty likely that they will have to take his body and flee Castle Black (with help from the Wildlings). But, it seems unlikely that they would head north. Dolorous Ed has seen the White Walkers and the Night's King. He would tell them what he saw and none of them would be willing to go north of the Wall. So, that means they flee south. Well, dead bodies are obviously not reanimating south of the wall, and Jon was not a worshiper of the Lord of Light, so why burn him?

3). Melisandre will raise Jon from the dead as Thoros did with Dondarion. This now seems less likely. If it was going to happen, it seems like it would have happened as soon as she saw his dead body, but it seemed to not even occur to her. She left the room and went to bed. What could make her change her mind and decide to bring him back?

I think option 1 is out. I just don't see how HBO makes it happen. I think a combination of option 2 and 3 makes sense, but something significant is going to be needed to push Melisandre in that direction. Maybe she sees a vision in her fires that convinces her to raise Snow. But, I thought of something else that might be on the near horizon. What if Benjen Stark were to suddenly return to Castle Black and tell everyone who Jon really was? With Jon dead, Benjen would likely see no reason to continue keeping it a secret that Rhaegar Targaryan was his father. If Melisandre were to find out, she might realize how important he was and try to bring him back. Especially if the theory about Melisandre being of Targaryean blood (daughter of Bloodraven) is accurate. In the book version (and somewhat in the show), this would allow for Jon to leave the Wall and head for Winterfell, while keeping Benjen at the Wall so that there is still a character we care about there (and a POV for GRRM).

I could also see Melisandre sacrificing herself in the fire to raise Jon. Both GRRM and HBO have established that a sacrifice is required to give life. Melisandre thinks that the sacrifice has to involve King's blood. I think GRRM intends for Mel to burn Shireen, but Shireen is gone in HBO's world. Maybe they will reveal that Mel is of Targaryan birth and she will allow herself to be burned along with Jon's body.
 
I was just getting on here to post that i bet she sacrifices herself for him. From the other thread, SouthwestOkPoke posted this link about Mel.

http://www.tearsofblood.org/#!mel-theredstarbleedingsbm/c1xt1

"It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

If Mel is the Red star, then her sacrificing herself, and bleeding (especially if she does have kings blood) may be what brings him back. Her blood/tears = The salt part of the prophecy?

I always figured the red star bleeding was just the comet, but I'm pretty sure now it refers both to the comet and her literal blood.

Obviously she looked depressed at taking off the necklace and its effects, but I thought the despair about her was much more than that, given she sees that every night. She looked like she was looking at herself for the last time.
 
Oh and as far as why she didn't immediately raise him like Dondarian did... i don't think she knows she can do it like he did, or how he did it. She seemed really puzzled as to how he could have done it.

Also... now that we know she's much, much older, it underscores that she is pretty crappy at what she does if she's had twice or thrice as long to study the arts as we thought.
 
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More food for thought. I

f Mel does sacrifice herself to raise Jon, I think we will be seeing another significant difference between Books and HBO. I am a believer in the theory that Mel burns Shireen to bring back Jon. If so, that means that GRRM has plans for Mel to play a significant role down the line, and she won't be around to do so in HBO's world. The name of last night's episode was "The Red Woman", and the episode ended with the reveal of what she really is. That suggests (to me) that HBO is paving the way for her to sacrifice herself. They want us to know that she is extremely old so that it will make more sense when she chooses to end her life.

I do believe that her necklace making her appear young and beautiful is in line with GRRM's world as there are simply too many hints that are pointed out in the link from the other thread. My guess is that GRRM told HBO about that detail and that Mel does not survive to the end of the story, but didn't go into details of how she dies.
 
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My new working theory is that the two factions are going to come to blows over the Jon Snow supporters not giving up. I'm guessing most of the items in the prophecy can be met if there's a battle at the wall. Jon Snow will rise from dead, walk out into the middle of the melee, and everyone will stop fighting and swear allegiance.
 
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I also think they are setting up her sacrificing herself. Basically she just told whatshisname to kill his completely innocent daughter to create favor and in doing so she basically f*cked them all and everything she foresaw so far has been wrong. Maybe being so old she is at the 'f*ck it' point and wants to make herself right at something.

Also if she lives be interesting if the Onion ever figures out what she did to Shireen (as I am not buying into any of the equations that connect Shireen and Mel).
 
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Was Stannis just a pawn to her, or was he really her soul mate-type lover? In the beginning I thought he was just a tool for her to use to gain her own ends, but she seems devastated by his loss. If so, perhaps more fuel for her own funeral pyre? I agree that she's ready to leave this world. She went to bed not just as a tired old woman, but as a defeated and disconsolate old woman.

If she does sacrifice herself for Jon, for which you guys make a good case, then that snips another branch off the HBO story line tree. If the producers are serious about wrapping up this story in two more seasons (and abbreviated ones at that), then I expect Melisandre will not be the only "loose end" we see tied up this year.

I'm not going to be surprised to see either Bran or Arya disappear. One may be important to the end-game, but not both. Same with Jaime and Cersei. One, but not both. There won't be many characters left standing as the final season begins. Tyrion, Dani and Jon are my predictions.

The dark horses, inmo are Sam and Little Sam. Sam is pure of heart, intelligent, a student of history, etc. etc, and I can see whoever ends up on the throne being a person who wants to leave the constant bloodshed and killing in the past. He's the one with the least amount of blood on his hands and could offer a "happily ever after" ending. May as well face it, NO one is going to like the ending.

Purists keep talking about the need to flesh out certain characters and subplots here and there. I don't think the producers feel any loyalty to the story line whatsoever and you know they don't believe they OWE the fans anything. When they feel they've milked all the easy money available from this commercial venture, boys, this series is over, regardless of the thoughts of fans, critics or GRRM.
 
I don't care if they break from the books at all. I actually hope they do. My problem is a lot of the time when they stray far from the books the results have just been awful and crappy TV (Dorne and Stannis).
 
Air_Thurman said:
I don't care if they break from the books at all. I actually hope they do. My problem is a lot of the time when they stray far from the books the results have just been awful and crappy TV (Dorne and Stannis).
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. Their writers struggle when they have to work without the GRRM outline. I suspect that HBO realizes this and it is a big reason that they are talking about ending the series fairly quickly. As they get further away from the books, and the content suffers, they will lose more and more viewers.
 
Been Jammin said:
I know are two other threads where I could have posted this, but one is more of general show discussion and the other went into a bit of a different direction. There are possible spoilers in here for any of you that are in the process of reading the books, but mostly this is speculation on my part.

After watching the first episode of the season, I think one of the most interesting things is what didn't happen. Specifically, what caught my attention is that Melisandre saw Jon's body and then decided that it was getting late and it was time to just go to bed. She did not immediately resurrect him.

Let's look at some of the theories as to what would happen to Jon after he died.

1). He would warg into Ghost...at least temporarily.
This seems like it would be very difficult for HBO to pull off. The viewer can't read Ghost's mind (as opposed to the book reader). So, how would HBO do that? Would it be like watching an episode of "Lassie"? I can see Dolorous Ed saying, "What's that boy? What are you trying to tell us? Shake your head for No and nod your head for Yes". I suppose they could have Kit Harrington narrate Ghost's thoughts, but that would seem to not fit either. The only way that I could see HBO doing it would be to have Jon tell the viewer that he was in Ghost's head after Jon has been resurrected.

2). Jon will be burned on a funeral pyre and will rise from the dead to become Azor Ahai.
I think this is somewhat realistic, but the question I have now is...why would they burn him? I thought it made sense that they would burn him at Castle Black to keep him from becoming a Wight. But, that no longer makes sense. The Snow loyalists are barricaded in a room with Jon's body. They can't burn the body in the room, and they aren't free to just go outside and make a funeral pyre. It looks pretty likely that they will have to take his body and flee Castle Black (with help from the Wildlings). But, it seems unlikely that they would head north. Dolorous Ed has seen the White Walkers and the Night's King. He would tell them what he saw and none of them would be willing to go north of the Wall. So, that means they flee south. Well, dead bodies are obviously not reanimating south of the wall, and Jon was not a worshiper of the Lord of Light, so why burn him?

3). Melisandre will raise Jon from the dead as Thoros did with Dondarion. This now seems less likely. If it was going to happen, it seems like it would have happened as soon as she saw his dead body, but it seemed to not even occur to her. She left the room and went to bed. What could make her change her mind and decide to bring him back?

I think option 1 is out. I just don't see how HBO makes it happen. I think a combination of option 2 and 3 makes sense, but something significant is going to be needed to push Melisandre in that direction. Maybe she sees a vision in her fires that convinces her to raise Snow. But, I thought of something else that might be on the near horizon. What if Benjen Stark were to suddenly return to Castle Black and tell everyone who Jon really was? With Jon dead, Benjen would likely see no reason to continue keeping it a secret that Rhaegar Targaryan was his father. If Melisandre were to find out, she might realize how important he was and try to bring him back. Especially if the theory about Melisandre being of Targaryean blood (daughter of Bloodraven) is accurate. In the book version (and somewhat in the show), this would allow for Jon to leave the Wall and head for Winterfell, while keeping Benjen at the Wall so that there is still a character we care about there (and a POV for GRRM).

I could also see Melisandre sacrificing herself in the fire to raise Jon. Both GRRM and HBO have established that a sacrifice is required to give life. Melisandre thinks that the sacrifice has to involve King's blood. I think GRRM intends for Mel to burn Shireen, but Shireen is gone in HBO's world. Maybe they will reveal that Mel is of Targaryan birth and she will allow herself to be burned along with Jon's body.
Click to expand...
Of course the other option you are not considering is that Jon Snow is dead and will remain dead, as dead people usually do.

I'm thinking not, and that the murder will release him from his vows so he can move on to other more important matters.

Regarding Bran and Arya, she may just peter out in Braavos for the rest of the story, but Bran is told early on by the three-eyed raven that he's living in order to save the world. Sort of important. He's not going anywhere but more into the center of the storyline.
 
100TonsofOrangeFury said:
Of course the other option you are not considering is that Jon Snow is dead and will remain dead, as dead people usually do.

I'm thinking not, and that the murder will release him from his vows so he can move on to other more important matters.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that he will be brought back to life in the books. I suppose it is possible that HBO goes in a different direction, but I think it is extremely unlikely.

It is pretty clear that GRRM planned for his death to release him from his vows so that he could be integral to the story in locations other than The Wall. My guess is that he becomes the individual who takes it upon himself to alert the rest of Westeros to the danger that everyone faces from the White Walkers and their undead army. By the end of Book 5, the only thing holding them back is the Wall and an extremely depleted Night's Watch. No one south of the Wall has any idea that there is a significant threat from the North. They think that the worst case scenario is that a few Wildlings make it south of The Wall and cause some minor problems. Jon will be instrumental in reuniting the North (i.e. eliminating the Boltons from the picture), and providing a second line of defense for when the Others breach the wall.
 
Whats the status of the 3 eyed crow at the end of the last book, was he dying finally? He's a pretty cool character that has played such a small role so far. Obviously he is grooming Bran to take his spot, but does he end up playing a larger role or is he just going to fade as Bran takes over?

When Bran is groomed can Brynden warg into another body? Can he be Azor reborn instead of Jon? Can he take over Jon's dead body?
 
Cowpoke said:
Whats the status of the 3 eyed crow at the end of the last book, was he dying finally? He's a pretty cool character that has played such a small role so far. Obviously he is grooming Bran to take his spot, but does he end up playing a larger role or is he just going to fade as Bran takes over?

When Bran is groomed can Brynden warg into another body? Can he be Azor reborn instead of Jon? Can he take over Jon's dead body?
Click to expand...


All good questions. My take on him is that he is losing his humanity and becoming one with the world. He is grooming Bran to take his place. But, I suspect he will no longer be a conscious, thinking being by the end of the 6th book. Bran will have to figure out a lot of things on his own after he is gone.


As far as him warging into Jon, I don't see it happening. At the point that Jon dies, it seems that the 3 Eyed Crow still has a lot to teach Bran. I would not expect his current situation to change suddenly at this point in the story.
 
Been Jammin said:
All good questions. My take on him is that he is losing his humanity and becoming one with the world. He is grooming Bran to take his place. But, I suspect he will no longer be a conscious, thinking being by the end of the 6th book. Bran will have to figure out a lot of things on his own after he is gone.


As far as him warging into Jon, I don't see it happening. At the point that Jon dies, it seems that the 3 Eyed Crow still has a lot to teach Bran. I would not expect his current situation to change suddenly at this point in the story.
Click to expand...

I agree, Jon died too soon for him to leave Bran. Though I do think Bran is farther along at this point than we've seen. I think next time we see Bran in the show he will have lept forward several months in his training. Physically he has changed so much that I bet when we join that story line it has progressed significantly. It already has a fair bit in the books and I bet when we rejoin there it has jumped forward as well. Still though, I agree, I don't think the TEC takes over Jon....I do wonder if he doesn't take over someone (or thing.. Dragon, Giant, etc) and joins the fight physically before he leaves the world for good.
 
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I'm interested in seeing how the Dorne plot evolves in the books now. In the show Doran ends up being a guy who accomplishes nothing and is way too passive. In the books it appears that way to his people but he seems to actually be playing the long game fairly well. Also thought this was interesting. Here is the note Doran was reading:

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne
 
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Air_Thurman said:
I'm interested in seeing how the Dorne plot evolves in the books now. In the show Doran ends up being a guy who accomplishes nothing and is way too passive. In the books it appears that way to his people but he seems to actually be playing the long game fairly well. Also thought this was interesting. Here is the note Doran was reading:

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne
Click to expand...

Agreed. Doran is shaping up to be an intriguing character as the story progresses. HBO butchered the Dorne storyline pretty badly, IMO.
 
I honestly hope that Jon comes back to life to lead the White Walkers against the rest of mankind.
 
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BvillePoker said:
I have heard rumors that his wolf will play an important role in his comeback.
Click to expand...

I did notice the wolf's eyes where really really red. Now I know the wolf was described as a white wolf with red eyes so I always felt that Jon's wolf had a lot more importance then the other Stark kids wolves.
 
Air_Thurman said:
I'm interested in seeing how the Dorne plot evolves in the books now. In the show Doran ends up being a guy who accomplishes nothing and is way too passive. In the books it appears that way to his people but he seems to actually be playing the long game fairly well. Also thought this was interesting. Here is the note Doran was reading:

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/objects-from-dorne
Click to expand...
What does the last line mean "your son cannot stay in Kings Landing.....so I'm sending him back on the same ship"???
 
Cowpoke said:
I'm guessing the prop was made then the story line was changed.
Click to expand...

That would make sense. I guess Trystane was originally slated to sail with Jaime and Myrcella to KL. Smart to change the story, as it would have been really stupid for the Sand Snakes to poison Myrcella while Trystane was in the clutches of Jaime and Cersei. Of course, since they killed Trystane anyway (didn't they?), I would have liked to see a story line where Jaime and Cersei thought they had a valuable hostage and the Sand Snakes were saying, "We don't care about him. you can keep him".
 
Been Jammin said:
That would make sense. I guess Trystane was originally slated to sail with Jaime and Myrcella to KL. Smart to change the story, as it would have been really stupid for the Sand Snakes to poison Myrcella while Trystane was in the clutches of Jaime and Cersei. Of course, since they killed Trystane anyway (didn't they?), I would have liked to see a story line where Jaime and Cersei thought they had a valuable hostage and the Sand Snakes were saying, "We don't care about him. you can keep him".
Click to expand...
Article I read this morning said he was on the boat and they followed him to Kings Landing to kill him.....o_O
 
Cowpoke said:
What the actual..

http://www.techinsider.io/game-of-thrones-dorne-plot-2016-4

Its like an entire different set of writers, directors, casting decision makers, set and costume designers etc were assigned to anything related to Dorne.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. I didn't even realize Trystane was killed on a ship. I thought he was just in a small room in Dorne.

The idea that they were able to sneak to KL, find him, and kill him is another example of ridiculously bad writing. Why would Jaime just leave him on the ship? Why not take him hostage, or take him to the Red Keep to keep him safe (if Jaime does not blame him for Myrcella's death)? Heck, why not just take him to the palace so that he could be comfortable while they decide what to do with him?
 
Been Jammin said:
Thanks for the link. I didn't even realize Trystane was killed on a ship. I thought he was just in a small room in Dorne.

The idea that they were able to sneak to KL, find him, and kill him is another example of ridiculously bad writing. Why would Jaime just leave him on the ship? Why not take him hostage, or take him to the Red Keep to keep him safe (if Jaime does not blame him for Myrcella's death)? Heck, why not just take him to the palace so that he could be comfortable while they decide what to do with him?
Click to expand...

And the snakes just walked right into the ship apparently with weapons in tow. They were dry so no swimming/sneaking on.
 
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I came across this today and got a huge chuckle out of it so I had to post here.

original.jpg
 
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Been Jammin said:
I do believe that her necklace making her appear young and beautiful is in line with GRRM's world as there are simply too many hints that are pointed out in the link from the other thread. My guess is that GRRM told HBO about that detail and that Mel does not survive to the end of the story, but didn't go into details of how she dies.
Click to expand...
Something that I've seen pointed out online today - apparently there's a scene in season 2 where Melisandre's in a bath without her necklace on and she still looks young. More evidence of oversights by the writers, perhaps?
 
My favorite comment re: tonight's episode

"That was one heck of a sponge bath. Never underestimate the restorative power of a good spa day and a haircut. #gameofthrones"
 
Colorado_Poke said:
Something that I've seen pointed out online today - apparently there's a scene in season 2 where Melisandre's in a bath without her necklace on and she still looks young. More evidence of oversights by the writers, perhaps?
Click to expand...

I don't think these writers or more precisely show runners have those kinds of oversights. I think it has more to do with her losing her faith. Also note that when she takes off the necklace and lays it on the table the shot focuses on a bottle of some kind of potent sitting next to it. Not sure what that meant but it didn't seem accidental.
 
Most anticlimactic moment in TV history. Everyone knew he was coming back and the wolf being in the room was pretty obvious too. The demise of Roose Bolton and family was a much more shocking moment to me although in hindsight Roose probably should have seen that one coming. The little bastard has never played well with others.

Was that Jon Snow's mother on the white horse in the opening scene?
 
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