Immigration and the Statue of Liberty

[tcpoke]

Immigration has always been a sore subject in this country (and every other country I believe). The Irish were shunned, the Asians we shunned, no those from our numerous neighbors to the South. All of these to varying degrees, but the basic fact is that we, as a country, have never been as welcoming as we would want to believe. All of which makes the poem memorialized in the Statue of Liberty that much more ironic.

New Colossus

"....Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Just a random thought and truly not a commentary on anything in particular other than the way the general public views much of American history and current events. We love to make ourselves feel good about who we are as a nation regardless of the facts, and I'm guilty of it as well.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[CBradSmith]

Oh here we go.

 

[PDT816]

To be fair, it's not like we as a country decided to erect the Statue of Liberty or select the New Colossus poem to advertise for immigration either. A very, very small minority of private citizens did it.

 

[gulfshorespoke]

If they apply legally I don't have a problem with them. What's going on right now is pathetic. Those kids aren't going anywhere and the libs playing it up because they are children is just are nuts. Secure the damn border and quit trying to buy future votes.

 

[tcpoke]

PDT and gulf,

I agree with both of you. The bottom line is that it's an unsustainable ideal to begin with. At some point populations start to inch closer to critical mass, and problems ensue.

I was looking at it from the standpoint of how poorly our education system really conveys the accuracy of our history. In my mind it's troubling because it allows the general public to approach certain problems with a very misguided sense of history.

Immigration is a great example. The democratic side wants to lean on the idea that we should welcome people with open arms, like the poem indicates, however it isn't that easy and has never been that easy.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally posted by gulfshorespoke:
If they apply legally I don't have a problem with them. What's going on right now is pathetic. Those kids aren't going anywhere and the libs playing it up because they are children is just are nuts. Secure the damn border and quit trying to buy future votes.

I haven't seen the answer to this, but don't they pretty much just have to get to the border and say "I'm seeking asylum" and then if they aren't from Mexico we have to let them stick around until they see an immigration judge?

Another one I haven't seen is, what is the estimate of children who aren't apprehended? The 56,000 number I've seen lately are an example of the border being secure right?

 

[gulfshorespoke]

True tc. I am friends with two couples who went through the legal process. One is from Mexico and the other is from Egypt. They are all american citizens now and aren't happy at all right now because they did it the right way. Good hardworking people who speak english. That's the way it should be.

 

[windriverrange]

Gulfshores...it's a giant pain in the ass process. Brought my fiancee here from Brazil in 2011. First you have to get a K-1 Visa (also known as a fiancee visa), which took about 9 months, then after the wedding (you have 90 days to get married once she enters the country) then you have to convert the K-1 to a "permanent leagal alien satus with conditions" (another 10 months of waiting after the forms are filled out). After 18 months you then have to convert the "permanent legal alien status with conditions" to without conditons and we are in the process of doing that now, which we are told it will take at least 7 months. I hired a lawyer to help us through the first two steps, but decided to go it alone on step 3. Total cost has been about 6,000 USD so far.

Can't tell you how absurd the whole process has become. When we went from the K-1 to "legal resident alien with conditions" they had a form for her to fill out that ask such hard hitting questions as; "have you ever murdered anyone" "have you ever belonged to a para-military organization that tried to over throw a soverign government" "have you ever smuggled drugs" crap like that. Oh and it was made very clear from the onset that she is allowed to stay in the country as long as I can SUPPORT HER, she faces deportation if that support fails and she were to go on government assistance.

Depressing to watch the clowns in government cater to this nonsense. One good thing though, it is waking some people up that previously though they were the protected class.

 

[gulfshorespoke]

I don't doubt you at all but just relating what was said to me from those that did it legally.

 

[windriverrange]

Gulfshores...wasn't trying to be dismissive at all, wife and I feel the same as your friends am sure. Took (or takes) years to wait your turn in line and to finish out the process legally...as opposed to those who's first act is to break a law to even set foot on our soil.

 

[JimmyBob]

Originally posted by windriverrange:
Gulfshores...it's a giant pain in the ass process. Brought my fiancee here from Brazil in 2011. First you have to get a K-1 Visa (also known as a fiancee visa), which took about 9 months, then after the wedding (you have 90 days to get married once she enters the country) then you have to convert the K-1 to a "permanent leagal alien satus with conditions" (another 10 months of waiting after the forms are filled out). After 18 months you then have to convert the "permanent legal alien status with conditions" to without conditons and we are in the process of doing that now, which we are told it will take at least 7 months. I hired a lawyer to help us through the first two steps, but decided to go it alone on step 3. Total cost has been about 6,000 USD so far.

Can't tell you how absurd the whole process has become. When we went from the K-1 to "legal resident alien with conditions" they had a form for her to fill out that ask such hard hitting questions as; "have you ever murdered anyone" "have you ever belonged to a para-military organization that tried to over throw a soverign government" "have you ever smuggled drugs" crap like that. Oh and it was made very clear from the onset that she is allowed to stay in the country as long as I can SUPPORT HER, she faces deportation if that support fails and she were to go on government assistance.

Depressing to watch the clowns in government cater to this nonsense. One good thing though, it is waking some people up that previously though they were the protected class.


So, you play by the rules and suffer the bureaucratic bullshit; yet, the border is open to those who don't have a freakin' clue about rules, nor do they care.

 

[aix_xpert]

Question: Why do we have to confirm if they are from Mexico. They came to us from Mexico. Why can't we assume they came from Mexico and deport them back. If Mexico didn't want them, they should have stopped them at their border.

Justin

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Originally posted by aix_xpert:

Question: Why do we have to confirm if they are from Mexico. They came to us from Mexico. Why can't we assume they came from Mexico and deport them back. If Mexico didn't want them, they should have stopped them at their border.

Justin

2008 law aimed at protecting children from sex trafficking. The exception is for Canada and Mexico.

In Onion worthy news, Mexico and Guatemala signed an agreement to "protect" children while they traverse Mexico.

 

[gulfshorespoke]

They are sticking them in nice hotels now. This will help matters.

 

[imprimis]

Originally posted by gulfshorespoke:
They are sticking them in nice hotels now. This will help matters.

I wonder if they are having to eat the same slop Michelle is forcing American youth to eat? That alone will hasten their return to their homelands.

 

[windriverrange]

Mr. Blonde that agreement you speak of actually creates a special "pass" from Mexico to the folks transiting so they are not bothered by mexican law enforcement. Not a peep out of our politicians though....just unbelievable really.

 

[NipponPoke]

A little surprised (somehow) by the responses here.

Quick show of hands.....how many of us would be doing the exact same thing if we had lost the birthplace lottery and ended up stuck in Craphole, Honduras?

 

[Tulsaaggieson]

It's not that Honduras is a total crap hole. It has potential, and the ability to climb out of it current state. It is more that 5% of population is brutal to the rest, and another 5% of the population has all the money, and is unwilling to allow actual free economic growth by developing a middle class.

With that being said, the US has never had a problem with immigration like it does today. Before immigrants could go to parts of the country not already settled, but all where shunned in some way. Like TC points out we have never been welcoming to strangers in our midst. The people who got treated the best where middle class Europeans, but depending on where you where from and where you where trying to start a business could be a problem, but you did have the best chance of success.

In America of the past though you where free to work your way up. If you made your fortune you could keep it. This included freed slaves, and Chinese immigrants. and some did.

We need to start asking why they are here. Are they here to enjoy freedom, or are they here to flee oppression? There is a big difference there, but I would be willing to bet that more than 3/4 are fleeing oppression.

 

[imprimis]

"A liberal paradise is a place where everybody has guarantee employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education, free food, free housing, free clothing, free utilities, and only law enforcement has guns.

And believe it or not, such a place does, indeed, exist...it's call prison." --- Sheriff Joe Arpaio

 

[windriverrange]

Nippon...completely irrelevant point. Same as saying now that if "I lived in the early middle to 1800's no way I would have owned slaves or killed Indians." Had I been born in another country wouldn't have even had the same parents.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

I think the right wingers that say, "We want immigration, we just want them to follow the laws" are really showing their black hearts. 1. Immigrating to the U.S. legally is very hard. 2. How is a child in some gang-infested third world ghetto supposed to comply with the law? Hire a lawyer? Wire money to a U.S. lawyer? Sell magazines to get the $?

"Comply with the laws and you can come in."

"I can't comply with the laws. they're too arcane, I don't have the money to do it and I can't wait years."

"Guess you can't come then, kiddo..... but I'm really for giving you a chance to come."

Saying people should comply with laws that can't be complied with is dumb and malicious. Christ, like a 10 year old from El Salvador can comply with immigration laws. It's just a stupid talking point that's probably filtered down from some right wing mouthpiece, like when Romsney kept saying our Navy should match the same # of ships we had in 1900. It's so stupid that the instant it's addressed, it just goes away.

 

[NipponPoke]

I'm just surprised by the lack of compassion for some of these cases, especially by some of you that have experienced third-world poverty. Yes.....breaking the law is breaking the law, no doubt about it.

But people will do whatever they have to do to have a better life (especially for their kids)......even if it means having to marry an American guy to do it.

 

[windriverrange]

Nippon, contrary to what your belief system may be there is a huge swath of people out there who if fact wouldn't do whatever it takes to have a better life, including marrying an American guy. I have zero compassion for his ginned up crisis because my wife and I didn't game the system (along with millions of others) to get her legal to live her and for us to get married. And by the way she doesn't actually have to become a US citizen either, we can keep applying for a new visa every 10 years and she can just stay a brazilian citizen.

Have seen plenty of 3rd world poverty and one reoccurring theme to that poverty is politicians who continue to hand out goodies to the poor and uneducated to stay in office. Brazil's current president is a prime example of that type of person and tact. So yea, if their own politicians and countrymen don't care about them I sure as hell won't. We have millions of needy Americans at the front of the line now, including thousands of vets. Should these "children" and their most likely perpetual drag on school systems, tax payers and prisons have more privilege than them? I was in a military unit that provided guards and services at ft Chafee in AR during the Muriel Boat lift and can tell you through that experiences we inherited a huge number of dregs, mentally ill people and degenerates whom never assimilated and have been a drag on the system since the day they landed in the country.

The democrats had control of both chambers and the presidency not long ago and what did they do about his? Nothing nada zip....in other words the same people claiming to be compassionate now ( while complaining people like me are heartless) did nothing when their "compassion" could have changed the law. They're all moral cowards and almost exactly like the politicians from the countries of origin most of these people had.

I chose long ago and after my first marriage to never marry another America, there were/are manifold reasons I chose this path and can tell you with100% certainty I made the right decision and married a spectacular women who would have never "sold herself out" to just have a better life. No doubt there are some that do though and what i can say is there is no less than 3 opportunities in that whole process to end the marriage and send them packing. There is zero reason to break the law to get into this country and I don't care what your excuse is.

Finally if your so worried about these babes in the woods adopt a few of them and take the legal high road, not the illegal low one.

This post was edited on 7/20 3:55 PM by windriverrange

 

[NipponPoke]

For what it's worth, I didn't mean that as a personal attack. I was just relating to personal experiences I've had over the years where a couple of women that worked in my building (ironically Brazilians) offered me up to $17,000 for a marriage deal and entry into the United States (so they could move to Vegas and double their stripper incomes).

I don't know, I have far more compassion for the people I know that have chosen to break the law to make their lives somewhat bearable. This includes the Burmese woman in our office bathroom that spends ten hours a day cleaning a windowless toilet because the $5 a day she makes doubles what she earns in Myanmar. And a friend of mine from Laos that left his $70 a month labor job so he can make $400 a month working in a restaurant from 8am to 10pm, 6 days a week. These are good people with terrible luck in life.

Yeah, I've dealt with immigration. Know all about it.....been doing it for 17 years. The visa runs, the applications, the 90-day check-ins. Sucks. But it doesn't bother me when these people cut the line and cheat the system. Totally different kettle of fish.

 

[CBradSmith]

Originally posted by syskatine:
I think the right wingers that say, "We want immigration, we just want them to follow the laws" are really showing their black hearts. 1. Immigrating to the U.S. legally is very hard. 2. How is a child in some gang-infested third world ghetto supposed to comply with the law? Hire a lawyer? Wire money to a U.S. lawyer? Sell magazines to get the $?

"Comply with the laws and you can come in."

"I can't comply with the laws. they're too arcane, I don't have the money to do it and I can't wait years."

"Guess you can't come then, kiddo..... but I'm really for giving you a chance to come."

Saying people should comply with laws that can't be complied with is dumb and malicious. Christ, like a 10 year old from El Salvador can comply with immigration laws. It's just a stupid talking point that's probably filtered down from some right wing mouthpiece, like when Romsney kept saying our Navy should match the same # of ships we had in 1900. It's so stupid that the instant it's addressed, it just goes away.

Libs...mastering the art of plugging people into 1 of 3 categories:

The victims.
The victimizers.
The champion of the victim.

To disagree on principle is to be labeled having a "black heart."

Sys, you're an asshole with a black heart.

 

[N. Pappagiorgio]

10 million illegals? 100 million illegals? It doesn't matter to liberals because most are socialist. The America that was created 240 years ago is a distant memory.

 

[NipponPoke]

The ridiculous 'libs vs. right wingers' argument aside......I think what kind of surprises me the most with this issue is the lack of compassion by those that believe in and follow Christ. For some reason, I expected more from those that say they believe in this religion.

 

[N. Pappagiorgio]

Originally posted by NipponPoke :

The ridiculous 'libs vs. right wingers' argument aside......I think what kind of surprises me the most with this issue is the lack of compassion by those that believe in and follow Christ. For some reason, I expected more from those that say they believe in this religion.

Fair comment.

The government isn't even close to being a Christian organization. I have read of many Christian organizations providing relief efforts.

 

[CBradSmith]

Originally posted by NipponPoke :

The ridiculous 'libs vs. right wingers' argument aside......I think what kind of surprises me the most with this issue is the lack of compassion by those that believe in and follow Christ. For some reason, I expected more from those that say they believe in this religion.

Is this a real plank in your argument? Really?

Do you see what you did? I mean, really drill down and tell me what you think your post communicates...about you... and how you think about all people in this (broader) conversation.

In your perfect world, how would this all unfold (you're king with absolute power, what do you do)?

 

[windriverrange]

Nippon, no worries man...didn't take it as a personal attack. I think it's a different deal though someone offering you money to fabricate a lie versus doing it legally versus a blatant display of lawlesness. Thanks for the relational stories as context though. Have a good week man.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

Originally posted by CBradSmith:

Originally posted by syskatine:
I think the right wingers that say, "We want immigration, we just want them to follow the laws" are really showing their black hearts. 1. Immigrating to the U.S. legally is very hard. 2. How is a child in some gang-infested third world ghetto supposed to comply with the law? Hire a lawyer? Wire money to a U.S. lawyer? Sell magazines to get the $?

"Comply with the laws and you can come in."

"I can't comply with the laws. they're too arcane, I don't have the money to do it and I can't wait years."

"Guess you can't come then, kiddo..... but I'm really for giving you a chance to come."

Saying people should comply with laws that can't be complied with is dumb and malicious. Christ, like a 10 year old from El Salvador can comply with immigration laws. It's just a stupid talking point that's probably filtered down from some right wing mouthpiece, like when Romsney kept saying our Navy should match the same # of ships we had in 1900. It's so stupid that the instant it's addressed, it just goes away.

Libs...mastering the art of plugging people into 1 of 3 categories:

The victims.
The victimizers.
The champion of the victim.

To disagree on principle is to be labeled having a "black heart."

Sys, you're an asshole with a black heart.

Brad, you should start your own party: The Little BItch Party. You faithfully bring the little bitch ideology at every turn.

I may be an asshole, but on this issue I'm right. People that just raise one reason after another to keep desperately poor people from coming to America where they can feed themselves and be productive have black hearts. Their only "principle" is self interest. Immigration built our country, and most of the immigrants that come over are type A, ambitious, hungry people that aren't too concerned with dotting i's and crossing t's.

 

[racernhra]

Sys, since you're supposedly an attorney maybe you could represent these people that cannot afford an attorney. Who really cares if you get paid you're serving the greater good. Right?

It's not a black heart. It is called being sensible and practical. I would be willing to wager that these illegal immigrants consume way more than they can possibly contribute. I cannot understand where you think the money and resources comes from to support these people.

 

[CBradSmith]

Originally posted by syskatine:

Originally posted by CBradSmith:

Originally posted by syskatine:
I think the right wingers that say, "We want immigration, we just want them to follow the laws" are really showing their black hearts. 1. Immigrating to the U.S. legally is very hard. 2. How is a child in some gang-infested third world ghetto supposed to comply with the law? Hire a lawyer? Wire money to a U.S. lawyer? Sell magazines to get the $?

"Comply with the laws and you can come in."

"I can't comply with the laws. they're too arcane, I don't have the money to do it and I can't wait years."

"Guess you can't come then, kiddo..... but I'm really for giving you a chance to come."

Saying people should comply with laws that can't be complied with is dumb and malicious. Christ, like a 10 year old from El Salvador can comply with immigration laws. It's just a stupid talking point that's probably filtered down from some right wing mouthpiece, like when Romsney kept saying our Navy should match the same # of ships we had in 1900. It's so stupid that the instant it's addressed, it just goes away.

Libs...mastering the art of plugging people into 1 of 3 categories:

The victims.
The victimizers.
The champion of the victim.

To disagree on principle is to be labeled having a "black heart."

Sys, you're an asshole with a black heart.

Brad, you should start your own party: The Little BItch Party. You faithfully bring the little bitch ideology at every turn.

I may be an asshole, but on this issue I'm right. People that just raise one reason after another to keep desperately poor people from coming to America where they can feed themselves and be productive have black hearts. Their only "principle" is self interest. Immigration built our country, and most of the immigrants that come over are type A, ambitious, hungry people that aren't too concerned with dotting i's and crossing t's.

You are very nearly putting on a full display of the duality of selective principled thinking; rejecting those positions that don't sit well with you (in the process demonizing principled arguments that are in disagreement), and the (surprisingly) disciplined exercise you lefties are particularly good at: the use of language to characterize and steer opinion. You've mastered the art of saying many words while saying nothing at all.... One of many reasons your ilk are not thought highly of, you've got little substance. But, you're probably doing alright financially, so continue with your bloviating...it's gotten you this far. I won't hire you to a highly analytical position, though, as you seldom align your datapoints and anchor them to a foundation.

Paint your pictures, and continue being the ostrich with his head in the sand as to why principled disagreement really is principled.

Living in your bubble is the easy, some would even say "bitch," way out. And whatever you do, don't confront some realities of the world that may make decisions tough or less than utopian.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

Brad, if you ever articulate a principle beyond your own perceived self interest I'll be all ears and give you every benefit of the doubt. As is, none of your views: 1. Will never, ever in any way potentially impact a corporate bottom line, 2. Never, ever potentially cost you money, or 3. Indicate some value beyond empowering the already-privileged. The sycophant ethos of your politics just doesn't engender much thoughtful debate.

There's a white billionaire in Highland Park that Fox says was insulted by an immigrant.... maybe you should race over and kiss his ass?

 

[CBradSmith]

Originally posted by syskatine:

Brad, if you ever articulate a principle beyond your own perceived self interest I'll be all ears and give you every benefit of the doubt. As is, none of your views: 1. Will never, ever in any way potentially impact a corporate bottom line, 2. Never, ever potentially cost you money, or 3. Indicate some value beyond empowering the already-privileged. The sycophant ethos of your politics just doesn't engender much thoughtful debate.

There's a white billionaire in Highland Park that Fox says was insulted by an immigrant.... maybe you should race over and kiss his ass?

Words; you are a talker. Maybe if you say enough of them they'll change reality. More likely, you've created your own idea of reality to support your self perception.

You're going to need to reproduce my alleged positions, as you've assigned a few here. But, again...just your words.

Frankly, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, much less anything about me or my beliefs.

And I don't want to know you. You are a liar. You live in a self constructed, self-righteous bubble and you lie. These are tendencies you obviously hide in your face to face interactions, or maybe you don't. Maybe it makes you a good lawyer?

Lastly, your thinking (as shown by your words) indicates a strong leaning toward self aggrandizement. Anybody whose opinion of themselves is as high as yours appears to be, from my experience, is pretty worthless as a human, much less a contributing member of society.

(P.s. It's humorous you allude to debate, when anybody can witness time and again how you move from debate to demonization and snide personal characterizations as if they are one and the same. I've got far more issues with your character than your politics.)

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

Well maybe I have you all wrong -- Which of your views that you've shared on here would potentially negatively impact a corporate bottom line or cost you money?

 

[N. Pappagiorgio]

Originally posted by CBradSmith:
You are very nearly putting on a full display of the duality of selective principled thinking; rejecting those positions that don't sit well with you (in the process demonizing principled arguments that are in disagreement), and the (surprisingly) disciplined exercise you lefties are particularly good at: the use of language to characterize and steer opinion. You've mastered the art of saying many words while saying nothing at all.... One of many reasons your ilk are not thought highly of, you've got little substance. But, you're probably doing alright financially, so continue with your bloviating...it's gotten you this far. I won't hire you to a highly analytical position, though, as you seldom align your datapoints and anchor them to a foundation.

Paint your pictures, and continue being the ostrich with his head in the sand as to why principled disagreement really is principled.

Living in your bubble is the easy, some would even say "bitch," way out. And whatever you do, don't confront some realities of the world that may make decisions tough or less than utopian.

One of the best descriptions of liberals that I have ever read. Bravo! Sad part of it is he doesn't understand it and won't relate it to himself. His suppositions are always formulated with his right brained thinking and by definition he is never able to connect the dots.