Gina Haspel for CIA Director

[aix_xpert]

So branding === reality in your world?

What you call branding, I call classification. Classifications do matter. If my county is classifed a disaster area, I get more federal funding in hurricane relief than if it isnt, regardless of the amount of damage actually done. But again, that's not my real point.

Answer this question: Was torture a sanctioned activity of the CIA in the 2000s? I'm not asking if it should have been. I'm asking if it was. If the answer is yes, then you can't blame the executors of the sanctioned activities. But unfortunately, the libs are once again trying to apply today's moral code to a sanctioned activity of the past.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Was the CIA slicing off the fingertips of captives?

Who knows? We only know what they have admitted. It would be naïve to think water boarding is the only arrow in their quiver. And are we responsible when we sub out our torture to other countries that don't proclaim our values? The finger tip example was just an attempt to get Harry to understand an open ended question like his is not answerable.

My question for the pro-torture crowd remains: why do you think it is OK for the US to torture captives, but wrong for radical Islamists to torture their captives? What principle applies?

 

[CowboyJD]

Who knows? We only know what they have admitted. It would be naïve to think water boarding is the only arrow in their quiver. And are we responsible when we sub out our torture to other countries that don't proclaim our values? The finger tip example was just an attempt to get Harry to understand an open ended question like his is not answerable.

My question for the pro-torture crowd remains: why do you think it is OK for the US to torture captives, but wrong for radical Islamists to torture their captives? What principle applies?

You refuse to answer Harry’s questions....ain’t nobody answering yours.

That’s the deal.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I’m neither, and such insults are beneath you.

This wouldn’t be a conversation if she had the same resume but was an hrc appointment, and that’s a fact.

I assure you I would be having the same conversation.

 

[HanAholeSolo2.0]

I assure you I would be having the same conversation.

I already exempted you.

 

[Ponca Dan]

What you call branding, I call classification. Classifications do matter. If my county is classifed a disaster area, I get more federal funding in hurricane relief than if it isnt, regardless of the amount of damage actually done. But again, that's not my real point.

Answer this question: Was torture a sanctioned activity of the CIA in the 2000s? I'm not asking if it should have been. I'm asking if it was. If the answer is yes, then you can't blame the executors of the sanctioned activities. But unfortunately, the libs are once again trying to apply today's moral code to a sanctioned activity of the past.

We hunted down, captured, tried and executed Nazi's who ran concentration camps. Their defense is they were "just following legally issued orders." Their defense was denied as unacceptable. If it is unacceptable for them it should be unacceptable for us.

I'll ask you: why is it OK for the US to torture captives, but not OK for radical Islamists to torture their captives? I argue it is not OK for either entity to torture. Please explain the principle you apply that allows us to torture them, but does not allow them to torture us?

 

[Ponca Dan]

I already exempted you.

Oh. I didn't know. Thank you!

 

[Rdcldad]

bust a deal face the wheel

 

[CowboyJD]

We hunted down, captured, tried and executed Nazi's who ran concentration camps. Their defense is they were "just following legally issued orders." Their defense was denied as unacceptable. If it is unacceptable for them it should be unacceptable for us.

I'll ask you: why is it OK for the US to torture captives, but not OK for radical Islamists to torture their captives? I argue it is not OK for either entity to torture. Please explain the principle you apply that allows us to torture them, but does not allow them to torture us?

You answer Harry...you might get some answers.

Everybody sees the passive aggressive game you are playing.

 

[HighStickHarry]

We hunted down, captured, tried and executed Nazi's who ran concentration camps. Their defense is they were "just following legally issued orders." Their defense was denied as unacceptable. If it is unacceptable for them it should be unacceptable for us.

I'll ask you: why is it OK for the US to torture captives, but not OK for radical Islamists to torture their captives? I argue it is not OK for either entity to torture. Please explain the principle you apply that allows us to torture them, but does not allow them to torture us?

The rest of us don’t consider Jewish families ripped from their homes the same as Muslim terrorists. We don’t consider our cia who is trying desperately to save your life on the same level as the nazis.

 

[CowboyJD]

I'll ask you: why is it OK for the US to torture captives, but not OK for radical Islamists to torture their captives? I argue it is not OK for either entity to torture. Please explain the principle you apply that allows us to torture them, but does not allow them to torture us?

Define the playing field.

Establish a false dichotomy for a multi-layered, nuanced, and complicated question.

Assign the non-preferred side of the false dichotomy to the opponent.

Demand they defend a proposition they didn’t actually make themselves.

My challenge to your principle is this....is there ever a scenario where it is OK to torture...can you envision a realistic, possible situation in which it would be okay to torture?

Harrytested your committed to principle...

Would you torture someone to save your kids?

What about a friends kids? What about a strangers kids? What about a stranger?

You dodged and danced, but ultimately refused to answer...

But asked enough questions to indicate maybe your no torture ever idea might not be all that firm.

It's a straw man argument because it has no parameters. Who's my kid? Adolph Hitler or a two year old that is teething? Am I 100% certain the captive can give me information to save my kid? Not 99%, 100%. What if I am wrong and he's the 1%? Lots of studies show torture doesn't work. Am I 100% certain torturing the captive will get me the information I need to save my child? And if I'm wrong and the captive has no information what reparations am I liable for? How do I give him back his fingertips if I have sliced them off? When I die and meet my Maker, how do I explain the Him that it was OK for me to violate His message to love one another, to turn the cheek?

So how about it?

 

[HighStickHarry]

You answer Harry...you might get some answers.

Everybody sees the passive aggressive game you are playing.

I’ve had this argument with people before. He can’t answer it.

The argument was waterboarding, extreme temperatures, sleep depreciation and loud music. I don’t know what really went on but that is what was debated. It’s basically the Sesame Street of torture. Our own soldiers waterboard each other.

I am ignorant to the finger slicing debate.

 

[CowboyJD]

I’ve had this argument with people before. He can’t answer it.

The argument was waterboarding, extreme temperatures, sleep depreciation and loud music. I don’t know what really went on but that is what was debated. It’s basically the Sesame Street of torture. Our own soldiers waterboard each other.

I am ignorant to the finger slicing debate.

As apassive aggressive concrete absolutely binary thinker....shades of gray are not an option.

 

[DrunkenViking]

I got nothing for someone with expectations that the rest of us do his basic resarch.

I know the answer. I was going to let you prove yourself wrong

 

[aix_xpert]

We hunted down, captured, tried and executed Nazi's who ran concentration camps. Their defense is they were "just following legally issued orders." Their defense was denied as unacceptable. If it is unacceptable for them it should be unacceptable for us.

I'll ask you: why is it OK for the US to torture captives, but not OK for radical Islamists to torture their captives? I argue it is not OK for either entity to torture. Please explain the principle you apply that allows us to torture them, but does not allow them to torture us?

I have never made the statement regarding radical islamists torturing us.

As to the Nazi example, I actually think that was wrong. We shouldn't have gone after the prison guards. The heads? Absolutely, but the foot soldiers were doing their duty and following orders. Otherwise its a untenable precedent. Would we all agree that nuclear war is terrible and devestating. Should we arrest every airman and flight operator involved in the nuclear bombing of Japan? None of them stood up to their superiors and questioned whether incenerating 70K people was the "right" thing to do. They just did what they were told.

If you want to have the debate on whether or not torture is justified, we can do so, but to be honest, I don't have a strong opinion to either side. What I do have a strong opinion of is the changing of our standards and then criticizing others for not historically adhering to those new standards.

 

[Tulsaaggieson]

You all do realize the CIA out sources torture to countries that allow it? That most of what the CIA does is technically out sourced. They keep separation for the most part between the US government and whoever is willing to do bad things for us. Quibbling about principles and the use of the CIA don’t go together. Moral outrage over whether or not the US participates in torture as compared to Egypt is wrong. We collect intelligence from most of the world. Do you have a problem with who provided it? If the English torture someone to gain intel and pass that info to us and we use it isn’t that same as if we tortured that person?

I stopped worrying about moralility as soon as you said intelligence. Most likely some law was broken to gain that intelligence. If you care about being a “civilized” society then no intelligence is possible as you condoned some law to be broken to obtain it.

 

[Ponca Dan]

The rest of us don’t consider Jewish families ripped from their homes the same as Muslim terrorists. We don’t consider our cia who is trying desperately to save your life on the same level as the nazis.

OK, we're getting close to an answer. Jewish families were innocent bystanders who were ripped from their homes and treated in an obscenely inhumane manner. The Nazi captors who perpetrated the violence were treated as they should have been. Therefore it is acceptable to capture them and execute them. (Would it have been acceptable to torture them first?)

Radical Islamists capture, enslave, torture and murder innocent people in addition to enemy combatants they scoop up on a battlefield. If those who commit those atrocities are captured by our side they should be tried, and when found guilty be hanged or shot by firing squad. (Should they be tortured first?)

What about Islamist combatants? The ones who go into battle, but do not torture the captives. The foot soldiers. When they are captured should they be tried and hanged? Tortured? To what end? How are the foot soldiers identified as separate from the torturers? If we are going to torture people is it incumbent upon us to discern beyond all doubt they are deserving of the torture? Or should we torture them in an effort to find out if they deserve to be tortured?

Questions like this can extend into infinity. But if we are going to claim the moral high ground these are questions we should answer before resorting to torture. Someone earlier in this thread referred to torture as "being mean to people." Torture is not being mean. It is being hideous.

 

[CowboyJD]

Answer his question first.

Try that.

I beg you.

 

[HighStickHarry]

That’s a lot of question marks when I just gave you one to address.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Waterboarding for information to save Americans compared to isis torturing is just laughable.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Waterboarding for information to save Americans compared to isis torturing is just laughable.

OK, I've had my say. I give.

 

[Medic007]

We hunted down, captured, tried and executed Nazi's who ran concentration camps. Their defense is they were "just following legally issued orders." Their defense was denied as unacceptable. If it is unacceptable for them it should be unacceptable for us.

I'll ask you: why is it OK for the US to torture captives, but not OK for radical Islamists to torture their captives? I argue it is not OK for either entity to torture. Please explain the principle you apply that allows us to torture them, but does not allow them to torture us?

Yeah, uh, I don't think the CIA was running concentration camps and engaging in mass extermination of Islamic terrorists. You lose a lot of credibility with these examples.

Gas chambers and starvation are not equivalent to water boarding. Gas chambers and starvation resulted in stacks upon stacks of dead bodies. Water boarding is some unpleasant moments.

Personally, I don't consider water boarding torture. I'd have a difficult time wishing a horrific death upon Islamic terrorists or Nazis if all they were doing was water boarding. I'd be willing to bet that James Foley, Daniel Pearl, and the millions of Jews that were executed by Nazis would probably not be dead if water boarding was all that was being done to them.

 

[davidallen]

What you call branding, I call classification. Classifications do matter. If my county is classifed a disaster area, I get more federal funding in hurricane relief than if it isnt, regardless of the amount of damage actually done. But again, that's not my real point.

Answer this question: Was torture a sanctioned activity of the CIA in the 2000s? I'm not asking if it should have been. I'm asking if it was. If the answer is yes, then you can't blame the executors of the sanctioned activities. But unfortunately, the libs are once again trying to apply today's moral code to a sanctioned activity of the past.

I agree. Words have meaning. Calling our engagement against terrorism war doesn't fit the definition of war IMO.

 

[davidallen]

Waterboarding for information to save Americans compared to isis torturing is just laughable.

This statement assumes much. Lets take the biggest one, what evidence is there that torture is effective?

The question Dan isn't answering isn't answerable as presented. Would I torture someone to save the life of my child? Ummm, well as presented 100% chance that torturing someone would 100% save my childs life then hell yes. Forget torture, I'll put a bullet right between their eyes. Nothing in that statement is meaningful as it relates to whether the CIA should torture terrorists. Nothing. NOTHING.

 

[davidallen]

I know the answer. I was going to let you prove yourself wrong

Good luck with that!

 

[Medic007]

Would I torture someone to save the life of my child? Ummm, well as presented 100% chance that torturing someone would 100% save my childs life then hell yes. Forget torture, I'll put a bullet right between their eyes. Nothing in that statement is meaningful as it relates to whether the CIA should torture terrorists. Nothing. NOTHING.

Interesting. Now insert CIA as you and American citizens as your child...

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

I’ve had this argument with people before. He can’t answer it.

The argument was waterboarding, extreme temperatures, sleep depreciation and loud music. I don’t know what really went on but that is what was debated. It’s basically the Sesame Street of torture. Our own soldiers waterboard each other.

I am ignorant to the finger slicing debate.

You take that moral hypothetical and then make a general policy based on it? Are you aware of an actual occurrence where we have been faced with an ethical quandary of imminently saving lives depending on whether we torture someone? Your analysis is one thing but interrogating a detainee is likely a totally different dynamic and circumstance.

 

[HighStickHarry]

You take that moral hypothetical and then make a general policy based on it? Are you aware of an actual occurrence where we have been faced with an ethical quandary of imminently saving lives depending on whether we torture someone? Your analysis is one thing but interrogating a detainee is likely a totally different dynamic and circumstance.

Are you asking me if I have first hand knowledge of cia interrogations?

 

[HighStickHarry]

This statement assumes much. Lets take the biggest one, what evidence is there that torture is effective?

The question Dan isn't answering isn't answerable as presented. Would I torture someone to save the life of my child? Ummm, well as presented 100% chance that torturing someone would 100% save my childs life then hell yes. Forget torture, I'll put a bullet right between their eyes. Nothing in that statement is meaningful as it relates to whether the CIA should torture terrorists. Nothing. NOTHING.

Ponca Dan was existing in a fantasy land in this thread and condemning Americans by putting them on the same plane as isis and the nazis. I just wanted to know if we could build parameters by making it personal as you did here (very graphically by the way sheesh).

We keep saying torture. I never heard anything that I thought was too harsh to save lives. Sleep deprivation torture? Loud nickleback and cold temps? Who are we feeling sorry for here?

The conflict of whether waterboarding/torture saves lives isn’t an absolute. How would you gather the data? I assume it’s worked some in the last five thousand years.

Is spanking torture? In some circles it is. Can I get to the truth faster with the threat of it? (Not me I only parent with calm words)

 

[OKSTATE1]

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

Are you asking me if I have first hand knowledge of cia interrogations?

Let's dispense with rules of evidence: Do you have any citation or source of such actual occurrence? Hell they've made movies and documentaries about our waterboarding -- any such occurrence that anybody's talked about?

 

[HanAholeSolo2.0]

Only to the simple or tribal...

just curious. Did you have issues with Brennan’s nomination?

Because if you did,

your simple tribalism chastisement would carry heavier weight of respect.

Still...

https://www.salon.com/2008/11/16/brennan/

 

[DrunkenViking]

Good luck with that!

Yeah, I didn’t really expect any intellectual honesty or recognition of your inability to recognize the MSM bias and fake outrage.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Let's dispense with rules of evidence: Do you have any citation or source of such actual occurrence? Hell they've made movies and documentaries about our waterboarding -- any such occurrence that anybody's talked about?

I think dick Cheney said the guy whose body is photoshopped with Rosie O’Donnell’s face spilled his guts after waterboarding.

You and I will hear about .01% of interrogations. I could waterboard you for ten seconds and get any info I wanted.

 

[Medic007]

I could waterboard you for ten seconds and get any info I wanted.

I doubt it. Did you read his truck stop fantasy? I have a feeling he's a pro at dealing with gallons of stuff splashing on his face.

 

[HighStickHarry]

Oh sweet mother of Mary

 

[DrunkenViking]

I doubt it. Did you read his truck stop fantasy? I have a feeling he's a pro at dealing with gallons of stuff splashing on his face.

But can he do it upside down?

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

I think dick Cheney said the guy whose body is photoshopped with Rosie O’Donnell’s face spilled his guts after waterboarding.

You and I will hear about .01% of interrogations. I could waterboard you for ten seconds and get any info I wanted.

That's not the topic at hand -- does this "torture the guy of they kill your kid" imminent urgency ever happen? Or did you just make up the hypothetical?

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

I doubt it. Did you read his truck stop fantasy? I have a feeling he's a pro at dealing with gallons of stuff splashing on his face.

Good lord. Even I didn't write that. No wonder you have so many problems with women.

 

[HighStickHarry]

That's not the topic at hand -- does this "torture the guy of they kill your kid" imminent urgency ever happen? Or did you just make up the hypothetical?

I will type slow.

Ponca Dan was blasting all harsh interrogation as immoral. We are lacking some nuance when we say torture of course.

I simply wanted to know if his idealistic stance would remain the same if the scenario was personal.