Check out socialized health care in the UK. You may change your mind.
https://mises.org/wire/its-time-give-britains-national-health-service
https://mises.org/wire/its-time-give-britains-national-health-service
Do You Want Socialized Health Care?
- Thread starter Ponca Dan
- Start date
That’s a really dumb question. Most conservatives would much rather have a different system than Medicare in retirement but because they paid in for 30 to 50 years, and it’s nearly impossible to go another route they will certainly use it.
I am strongly opposed to social security, but if there is any money left in it when I’m 65 (or 75 maybe by then), of course I will take my money back out.
You are better than this. I think.
Isn't medicare our largest example of government-run health care? How is asking someone if they like the current government-run healthcare delivery system stupid?
You seem permanently pissed off these days. What's up?
No. I’m 71. Haven’t been to a doctor since I was in my 50’s.
Oh, now I see what you want to know. Do I LIKE MediCare? Not only no but hell no!
You didn’t ask if he liked it. You asked if he used it. A huge difference.
Well hell you don't take care of yourself so you want everyone else to have the same unhealthy approach. Not even a colonoscopy or blood work at your age?
This is the perfect microcosm of your ideology. I don't use Dr's, but I have the best ideas how our health care system should work...
True.
- A new poll found 59% of Americans support a "national Medicare-for-all plan."
- The plan is similar to a proposal made by Sen. Bernie Sanders during the 2016 presidential campaign.
- Support for the idea is split along party lines, with only 36% of Republicans in favor.
How do you know, you've never used it.
You ‘re once again using twisted logic. What makes you think I don’t take care of myself? Because I haven’t been to a doctor? That would be a doctor taking care of me rather than me taking care of myself.
At what point in this thread have I suggested I have the best ideas of how “our” health care system should work? My idea is for you to decide what’s best for you, and me to decide what’s best for me. If you want to band together with other like-minded folks and create your own version of socialized health care that’s fine with me. I prefer the Indian Medicine Man that looks after me (blue).
I fear you are right. And probably within 70 years our health care will mimic what the UK has now.
For decades I have been forced to pay for a product I do not want and intend to never use. That’s how I know.
In 2015 to date, 67% of Americans are satisfied, compared with 66% in November 2014. Gallup began tracking Americans' satisfaction with the healthcare system in March 2014, at the end of the first Affordable Care Act (ACA) enrollment period. So while it is not possible to compare Americans' satisfaction levels before and after the law took effect, satisfaction has been largely stable since Gallup first measured it.
Americans' satisfaction appears to be influenced by the nature of their health plans, particularly how much they have to contribute to the cost. As a result, those whose plans are subsidized by the government -- including military/veteran health plans, Medicare and Medicaid -- are the most likely to be satisfied.
Dan and '01, I know how we always go off the rails when I talk reality, but here's about as close as we can get to whether the public likes government health care. How do you explain this?
Here's where you guys are flat wrong and you don't get it: The public doesn't want profiteering in health care. They don't want adventures in their health care. They want deep pockets, predictability, and good medicine and they'll pay for it. That 23% that didn't like their medicare would be an interesting group to interview.
Well, I'm sorry. I get it. Just the other day, my tax dollars were used to pay for an interstate highway re-pavement in Bangor, Maine. Not only that, but they took MY MONEY and spent it on a tail rotor assembly for a M54(ki)-4 heat seeking, satellite-controlled, torpedo.
Damn it's awful having the best quality of life in the most advanced civilization in history.
In 2015 to date, 67% of Americans are satisfied, compared with 66% in November 2014. Gallup began tracking Americans' satisfaction with the healthcare system in March 2014, at the end of the first Affordable Care Act (ACA) enrollment period. So while it is not possible to compare Americans' satisfaction levels before and after the law took effect, satisfaction has been largely stable since Gallup first measured it.
Americans' satisfaction appears to be influenced by the nature of their health plans, particularly how much they have to contribute to the cost. As a result, those whose plans are subsidized by the government -- including military/veteran health plans, Medicare and Medicaid -- are the most likely to be satisfied.
Dan and '01, I know how we always go off the rails when I talk reality, but here's about as close as we can get to whether the public likes government health care. How do you explain this?
Here's where you guys are flat wrong and you don't get it: The public doesn't want profiteering in health care. They don't want adventures in their health care. They want deep pockets, predictability, and good medicine and they'll pay for it. That 23% that didn't like their medicare would be an interesting group to interview.
I won’t speak for 01, but as for me I will tell you (for the umpteenth time) I am perfectly aware of that. The public is on your side of the argument. I don’t deny it now, nor have I ever denied it. I just disagree with the public on this issue. The purpose of the OP is for the public to see the result of what it wants: UK health care, which appears to be an unmitigated disaster. It is illogical for the public to say it wants freedom while demanding coerced government health care. They are opposite sides of the coin. You can’t have one if you have the other. The public has to choose. It seems to be choosing coerced government intervention over freedom. That’s a tragic mistake in my opinion.
Nothing to fear when it happens Ponca. I do understand though that you are a libertarian (anarchist?) and therefore are politically opposed to such an idea.
It is long past time to recognize health care as a right in this country.
What I am trying to get you to understand is that we have the best quality of life in the most advanced civilization in history because historically we have had freedom. We are enjoying the historical fruits of the civilization our founders gave us. And we are pissing it away.
And we still have freedom. Not to mention that some Americans have a greater degree of freedom now than they would have during the era of the founders.
btw, talk to someone who can't afford health care and worry about expenses/costs every time they get sick. Ask them how "free" they feel.
I would suggest a UK public health care system is most certainly something to fear.
In your opinion why is health care a right? What is a right? Health care is a commodity, nothing more. So why stop at health care? Why not declare that free access to every commodity is a right? Free automobiles, and free gas for same, plus free oil changes and free repairs. Free haircuts. Free lawn mowers. Free nail polish. Free original artwork by Modigliani. Free skin lotion. Shall I go on? If free access to one commodity is a right does it not stand to reason that free access to EVERY commodity is also a right? And if access to every commodity is not a right where do you draw the line, and why do you draw it there?
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Clean air. Clean water. Electricity. Roads. Sewer. Education. Internet. Health care. You're right, it's getting more and more to where the public is expecting these to be delivered without it constantly being a life-altering financial sacrifice.
Dan, government has rescued our air (acid rain and ozone regulation), water (layers of regulation protecting aquifers and surface use), Electricity (condemnation and public infrastructure and rate regulation), all of it and increasingly health care. A "thank you" to big government would suffice. Private enterprise literally had acid rain destroying things when I was a kid.
Why keep going past health care? Can you eat an oreo without also eating a 5 lb. sack of sugar? That makes no sense.
Am I “free” when I am required to pay for a product I do not want, with a lengthy jail sentence awaiting me if I refuse to buy? Was I “free” when I was 18 and LBJ drafted me to be a soldier in a war I knew nothing about in a country I had never heard of? Am I “free” today when DJT taxes me extra if I want to buy a foreign made product?
We are talking past each other, and I’m certain we always will. You view freedom as absence of want, that a person is free only if he can have something he wants. I view freedom as a absence of initiation of force, absence of one person threatening violence against another if they don’t do as they’re told. This is a difference we will never resolve. As I said earlier I recognize the public agrees with you. In my opinion it will eventually lead to ruin.
Let's have an intellectually honest discussion about this. Let's look at the countries with the best health care and see how it's generally delivered. Deal? I don't know the answer, but don't want to spend the time looking it up if you won't do it.
“A ‘thank you’ to big government would suffice.” I got a mental picture of you channeling your inner Jack Nicholson in “A Few Good Men.” It made me laugh!
Ponca, I really don't have time to get into a long drawn-out conversation with you about this nor do I believe it will be fruitful. It is clear you have your opinion on this and I highly doubt you will change that opinion.
I will simply say that I don't see health care as a commodity, just like I wouldn't have seen human slaves as a commodity when that claim was once made in this country. I believe health care is a right that all humans should have and that this right is closely related to those truths that we hold to be self-evident.
Yes. Just like you are free but have to follow other laws or end up in jail. Laws that exist for the common good. You are not an island unto yourself.
I only support military conscription during times of a serious national security threat and even then, it must be applied fairly. I don't support it though as a general military policy nor do I believe it was appropriate or fairly applied during the Vietnam War.
No, I don’t know the answer either. But I don’t really care what the answer is. I oppose giving government authority over my well being. Hell, Mussolini got the trains to run on time. Should we adopt Italian style fascism for that reason? The part of my argument you miss is I don’t care what health care you adapt for yourself. I want you to be free to choose any option you want. I readily admit that more people want some form of socialized medicine than not. Why don’t those of you that want socialized medicine band together and create it for yourselves? You can deny me and those few who think like me access to your health care. It will be only for people that want it. Those of us that think like me will fend for ourselves. Why are you so determined to force me into something with which I completely disagree?
I'm 46 and I'm not planning on Social Security or Medicare being there for me when I retire despite having paid into them all my life. That's how much I believe in socialism.
By definition healthcare can never be a right. A right is innately yours; not something that has to be provided to you.
What I want so badly for for all of us to live hassle free lives absent coercion from others. I live my life the way I want, and you live your life the way you want. As long as neither of us interfere in the other’s life, and as long as we neither try to get the government to force the other to do things against his will, we can be friends, and play tennis together, and enjoy each other’s company. We aren’t constantly trying to one-up each other. We have no reason to be suspicious other the other’s intentions. Why is that so hard to do? Why is it so hard for you to understand that?
@Ponca Dan ?
We have. E Pluribus Unum.
Ah, sound public policy, merit and effectiveness gives way to Appalachian government. I've seen both, and I prefer sound public policy.
If this is true, then why did slaves in this country have to be provided their freedom? Why did we have to enact a constitutional amendment and laws to give women the right to vote. Why did we have to enact constitutional amendments and other laws to guarentee civil rights for many Americans?
Why even have the Bill of Rights if rights are not something that need to be provided to you (or protected)?
Your rights can be taken from you by others. But they were always yours. They weren't given to them. They were returned back to them.
This theoretical word play makes no sense to me. Rights have to be affirmatively made and preserved or they don't exist. I disagree with anybody that says they're "innate" or "natural" or "god given" -- they only exist in reality when people say, "We declare this as a right" and that declaration is enforced."
Because it impacts other people. If you have 1200 hogs running on your property it's going to make your neighbor's property worth less.
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