it’s government that collects and keeps the loot Dan, not Trump.
Your boy, Trump, *is* the government. If you don't believe me, ask him. He rules the world. Those are his exact words. You must be delirious if you think any government program, tariffs included, is "easily corrected" once it's shown to be a debacle. Trump's tariffs in his first term were a disaster. Did Biden "correct" them? Why, no, he doubled down on them! The standard government "fix" is to say the program isn't big enough, strong enough, the government needs more power. That's what your boy, Trump, is telling us now. I appreciate *you* are willing to "pay a little more or do without just for the potential." What about the half of the country that is *not* willing? What are you saying to us? Suck it up, Bearcat and Trump just have our best interest in mind? Bearcat and Trump know what's better for us than we know? Good grief, can you imagine how you'd react if @my_2cents said that to you about him and Obama?
Your half of the country forced massive inflation with your green energy BS, Obamacare, millions of illegals, Joe Biden and a whole host of other leftist BS down our throats. Not to me mention the lefts support of the weaponization of government against us. Quite frankly I don’t give a shit what your half of the country thinks or wants, the same way you felt when your side was in power.
Unfortunately my side has never been in power (or wanted power). My side recognizes the same power formula no matter which party controls things. And IMO that’s where you make your mistake, you think your side is the good guys, if only it had the power to force its way on everybody all would be well. You’re mistaken. Your side is just as rotten, corrupt, incompetent and evil as your supposed enemy.
I’m not concerned about how many replies I get on this board. I come here to express my opinion. That most of the replies are of the same nature as yours is proof of how little authentic objective conversation is possible. More’s the pity. It would be gratifying to debate opinions civilly and without unnecessary insult.
You don’t have a side by choice, that way you are never responsible for anything.
This thread and your comments on it is a perfect example. The subject has turned into commentary about me and the original topic is abandoned. I wonder if you would like to express your opinion about Trump’s attempted strongarm against WalMart to hide the effects of his tariffs? Did you see Target is now raising prices?
Weird. I take you off ignore, and the first post I see is a flat out lie. My post (#9) was a direct comment about Trump asking corporations to pay their fair share, which I thought (until this thread apparently) was usually a liberal position. When Dems pushed to raise the corporate tax rate, it was all about big corporations paying their fair share. There was no discussion about those taxes being passed down or eaten. But when Trump passes a usage tax on companies importing foreign goods (aka a tariff) suddenly its a national story that he asks the worlds largest retailer, which makes billions of dollars per quarter in profit, to eat it.
Let’s take this one thing at a time. Are you referring to your post (#13)? I’m not a liberal and I’ve never said I want anyone to pay their fair share, much less any corporation. Trump’s tariffs, what you call a “usage tax” is a tax on American consumers, not American corporations, and sure as hell not a tax on foreign companies or governments. Trump’s attempt to intimidate WalMart (and Ford Motor Company before that) is an explicit admission he knows who pays the tax and he lied through his teeth time after time on the campaign. (OTOH it is possible he’s just that dumb and it took a slap in the face by reality to snap him out of it.). Why should anybody bash the OP? He started the thread with a legitimate question that deserved a legitimate answer, but instead, as he said, got crickets. I had to go back and reread the entire thread looking for a comment about “Schumer’s” taxes, but there is not one. Yes, I’m against all corporate taxes, personal taxes, tariffs, the full monty.
First, ALL taxes are taxes on the consumer. Period, end stop. A corp just passes down its taxes as costs to the consumer. And since tariffs are paid by the importing corporation at the time of import, they undeniably a tax on corporations. Joe Smith didn't write a check to the government for the tariff on his new car. He wrote a larger check to the dealer who paid the underlying tariff (tax) as a business expense.
When on the campaign trail DJT repeatedly insisted the *foreign* entity (company/government, he wavered back and forth on which one) pays the tariff, not the consumer. Repeatedly said it. Repeatedly said it. Called it fake news when he was contradicted. MAGAs en masse bought the lie, drank the kool-aide. The OP’s point, which is legitimate no matter how much MAGAs on this board want to ignore it, is Trump’s attempt to intimidate and browbeat WalMart into “eating the tariffs” is explicit admission he lied to us while on the campaign trail. The OP’s point, almost certainly was a troll (who am I to deny it, I troll you guys 10 times a day), but that doesn’t alter the fact that MAGAs on this board behave like cultists completely unwilling to acknowledge they willingly accept his lies without question. I don’t know who the OP is, maybe he’s a liberal, maybe not (for the record I sure as hell am not), but his political inclination is immaterial to the purpose of the thread, which is an attempt to get the MAGAs to wipe away the blinders from their eyes and see DJT for what he is, just another loud mouthed lying corrupt politician lusting for power, no different in that regard from every non-MAGA politician they have learned to not trust and to hate.
So your issue is that a politician sort of lied? Ok. Trump lies. Feel better? Even though his statement was historically correct, it was a lie. Historically tariffs are absorbed as costs by the importer, who generally uses them to squeeze cost reductions from the exporter, thus resulting in the exporter paying the bulk of the tariff cost. But thats just historical precedent and not how it "officially" happens. How it officially happens is that the importing corporation pays the tariff.
Please forgive me, I did not realize I had not answered your question. No, I do not believe tariffs are worse than any other method of taxation, including corporate taxes. In this instance Trump is *adding* tariffs to an already burdensome corporate tax rate, and corporations pass the extra cost to their consumers. Which is bad enough, but Trump exacerbates things by lying through his teeth insisting that consumers will not be the ultimate payers of the extra taxes. Reality has smacked him in the nose and he now browbeats WalMart and others to eat the tariffs. And to make matters worse people like you *know* he's lying but refuse to call him out for it. MAGAs have no problem pointing out the many lies coming from non-MAGA politicians but blithely ignore the lies coming from their own team. And ultimately that's the crux of the thread. It's hypocrisy, and it makes MAGAs angry to have their hypocrisy thrown in their faces, and that's why they haven't attempted to answer the question but instead have reacted with anger and ad hominem. As if they think that makes their hypocrisy disappear from view. I disagree with you, by the way, in your analysis that importers squeeze exporters by demanding discounts to offset the tariffs. We are not seeing that from WalMart. We are not seeing that from Target. In my business I am not seeing that from my suppliers. Just the opposite, in fact.
Are you upset with the tariffs or the fact that Trump, like every politician, lies at times? I assumed it was the former based on the number of posts you've written on the impact of tariffs and how they will cause the world order to crumble, but I don't want to misrepresent your position. Because above, you seem to state that tariffs really aren't any worse than any other corporate tax policy, and yet I don't see your cheers for Trump pushing for lower Corporate tax rates, nor do I see you calling out every other politician who lie or promote such anti-consumer taxes, such as Bernie and his "Free healthcare" (lie), Pelosi pushing for a 39% corporate tax rate (consumers pay that), or Warren telling companies to "pay their fair share" (why is this ok but telling walmart to eat the tariffs isn't?). So why is Trump's tariff policy so anathema to you vs. the rest of D.C.?
Please explain how lowering what corporations have pay in taxes while simultaneously raising what consumers have to pay as a result of tariffs (taxes) is a net positive for the country. It’s a con game in which the only positive is for the politicians.
Do you know what Wal-Mart does to their vendors?
What does that even mean, WalMart is "gonna have to chip in"? Here's the deal: if you don't like the way WalMart does business, then don't do business with WalMart.
Same with the Tariff Tax, don't wanna pay the tax don't buy the item.
Happily. The US government is going to collect taxes this year and as previously stated, all taxes are eventually paid for by the consumer. This is a fact. In reality, they need to collect more in taxes than usual given that the politicians of the past 40 years have piled on the debt and the higher inflation rates due to the Fed and Biden's loose money policies, that accrued debt is becoming a significant government expense. Recognizing that we need taxes (I wish we didn't but that ship sailed long before Trump was a politician), I'd rather see taxes applied to companies that profit off of cheap foreign labor over companies that create solid US based manufacturing jobs. Much like a cigarette or alcohol tax is used to incentivize behavior, tariffs do the same. The alternative, as proposed by Dems over the past several years, is higher corporate tax rates which punishes US based companies and encourages them to move as much of their business off-shore as possible while ALSO raising prices for the consumer (just like tariffs). Thus its clear, tariffs are better for America than corporate income taxes. Do you dispute this?
Yes. Taxes are taxes no matter the hidden form a government uses to disguise some of them by calling them a different name. As you said consumers are the feckless losers that wind up paying them one way or another. The poor schlub that pays the taxes is dunned both coming and going. It makes no difference what the tax is called he’s still required by the state to pay the tribute. I don’t know if you call yourself a conservative, but your notion that it is government’s duty to “incentivize behavior” can be found nowhere in the true conservative handbook.
And you ignored my point completely (no surprise). But that's the difference between us. I live in the real world, where the U.S. government is $36T in debt and growing. Taxes are inevitable and required at this point. I wish it weren't the case and I lived in a textbook like yourself and the world didn't need governments who borrowed trillions to enrich themselves. But that's what we got and until there's a revolution, my conservatism is balanced by realism. So in this real world, would you rather support tariffs or corporate taxes. Sorry, neither isn't an option.
I ignore your point because your point is immaterial in the real world. If you’re getting the crap beat out of you what do you care if it’s by your brother or your worst enemy. You’re still getting the crap beat out of you. IMO it is nonsense to pretend that one method of government theft (which is what taxation is) is somehow superior to another. Theft is theft. It’s a con game to pretend you’re better off being robbed by paying for corporate taxes than tariffs. You’re still being robbed. I can assure you our government overlords are thrilled to see someone approve of one source of tyranny because he thinks it’s better than another. All this banter just pays into the government grift. It is okay if it steals from us with its right hand but way out of line if the left hand does it. In the meantime both hands are deep in our pockets. Trump has played us. He took the tariff rate on China from 20% to 158% then “dropped” it to 30% and somehow convinced people he had negotiated the country into a better deal. Phooey!
Consumers have a choice to purchase or not purchase products that have tariffs placed on them. Consumers have no choice with corporate taxes.
Again, with the textbook answer and the dodge. But I get it. After 1000 posts about how terrible tariffs are, you can't suddenly admit that I'm right and that when reduced to a choice between tariffs and higher corporate taxes, which is the ONLY choice on the table, that tariffs are the better option. If there's a 3rd option that's going to pay for our government and its 36T deficit, please enlighten me.
I don't admit that you're right because I don't think you are. It would be like saying it is better to be shot by a firing squad than hung by the neck. You're just as dead, and it's silly to think one economic "cure" is better than another when neither are cures. When I was a young man and the Vietnam war was raging there was a saying that was popular, "What if they had a war and nobody came." You're wanting everybody to go to the war because "that's reality." The hell with that version of reality. Rage against it all, quit being duped by thinking you're doing the right thing by choosing one of the wrong things. The third option is to tell the government to diddle itself, we're not playing any longer. MAGAs think Trump is going to save us, while Progressives thought Obama would. How's that working out?
Lol. "tell the government to diddle itself". This is why you aren't worth having a discussion with. You refuse to discuss the real world. But lets say I went with your solution. How does the government pay back the $36T its already borrowed? How does forcing the US government into default, which would completely destroy 100% of my savings as the US dollar would become worthless, help me? Wouldn't most Americans rather pay some amount in taxes vs. having their entire life's saving evaporated? Help me to understand how your 3rd option, which would destroy the current economic model benefits me? So if I have to choose between higher corporate taxes, tariffs, or a destroyed US dollar, I still choose tariffs. Feel free to explain to me what I'm missing. (and I'd note, that with tariffs, I can tell the government to suck it by choosing to not buy tariffed products.)
Let me answer your question with one of my own. How is the current way of doing things paying back the $37 trillion debt? How is offsetting a lowering of corporate taxes by raising tariffs by a supposedly equal amount going to pay back the $37 trillion debt? IMO it is fool’s gold to think tariffs are “skin cancer” while corporate taxes are “colon cancer.” They’re all colon cancer. IMO it is unnatural, unhealthy and illogical to accept the sliding scale of bad choices offered us by our government. They’re *all* bad choices and it is a grievous error to get caught up playing the game the gov’t wants us to play. Pick your poison, they tell us. It’s all poison! IMO MAGAs are making a terrible mistake in following Trump down the protectionist/tariff path. It just continues the charade that a politician (any politician - pick your poison) is doing something in your behalf.
