Can we please talk about some ideas that might actually work?

[MegaPoke]

Man that .223 is a different animal though. If they're both jacketed without some cop killer feature I think the .223's speed is the deal changer.

They invented the .40 because the FBI got into a shootout and shot some guy umpteen times with a 9mm and he kept coming. I don't think anybody keeps coming after getting shot multiple times in center of mass with a .223.

A semi-auto 12 gauge would be infinitely more devastating in virtually every single mass shooting scenario than a .223 - yes it's speed can cause a shockwave, tumbling and even fragmentation in some cases, but sometimes it also punches a nice neat hole - depending on the tissue it penetrates.

Larger caliber, slightly slower moving rounds like the 30 06 or .308 can still do the same thing but with a much bigger piece of lead that more consistently leaves bigger holes.

Hollow point pistol rounds can be equally devastating.

Shotguns in a crowd would consistently do more damage than anything else.

 

[MegaPoke]

I'd use pistols too. There's a fixation with the AR that has taken on some kind of symbolism. Like... it's america's weapon that secures freedom or something.

Third world coutnries do the same thing with the AK. It's even on flags.

It's nothing like that at all. I've explained this to you several times. The AR is a highly customizable platform that can be good for home defense (especially rural homes), hunting (yes, hunting) and recreational shooting. And it could theoretically be a reliable personal firearm if there was some kind of protracted siege of some kind.

It's versatile. It's light. It's inexpensive due to all the vendors that make it. It's got limitless accessories. It has virtually no recoil so women can easily use it.

It's simply become very common and popular because of these things.

To gun people, this is like people wanting to ban iPhones because they receive more spam calls than any other phone. They are missing the point that it's just the most common phone.

Or, calling for Ford to stop production of the Mustang because it's over-represented in moving violations and noise complaints - never mind that it's also a cheap, relatively high performing car with tons of aftermarket options to customize it for people who like to drag race from stoplight to stoplight. It's simply the most common car involved in drag races.

I'm sure you will ignore these analogies, but they are spot on. There is nothing technically special about the AR as regards mass shootings. Nothing.

 

[Been Jammin]

Shotguns in a crowd would consistently do more damage than anything else.

More or less likely to be fatal?

Let's say a guy goes into a crowded bar and points a shotgun at a person and fires. He/she is likely going to die, but wouldn't the majority of the blast stop after penetrating that person? On the other hand, an AR-15 or Gloc round, would be more likely to go through the initial victim, and hit one or more people behind him/her, right?

I know that there are no concrete answers to these questions, as range and where you aim matters.

It does sound to me like the factors most likely to cause a shooter to choose an AR-15 are...
-They look cool
-They feel like you are in a war setting/video game
-They are not overly expensive
-They get more media attention
-They allow for high capacity magazines

 

[HighStickHarry]

@HighStickHarry I think we found one to worry about.

I already had him down

 

[MegaPoke]

t does sound to me like the factors most likely to cause a shooter to choose an AR-15 are...
-They look cool
-They feel like you are in a war setting/video game
-They are not overly expensive
-They get more media attention
-They allow for high capacity magazines

Or..... as I've been saying and mostly getting ignored about... they are simply the most common rifle in America. To me, the why of a mass shooter picking an AR is completely irrelevant and misses the point of the why's we should be focusing on.

AR events get more media attention and have given you the idea that virtually all mass shootings involve them. Not true. I bet handguns are the weapon of choice in (just guessing here) 80% or more of shootings termed "mass shootings."

 

[Been Jammin]

More or less likely to be fatal?

Let's say a guy goes into a crowded bar and points a shotgun at a person and fires. He/she is likely going to die, but wouldn't the majority of the blast stop after penetrating that person? On the other hand, an AR-15 or Gloc round, would be more likely to go through the initial victim, and hit one or more people behind him/her, right?

I know that there are no concrete answers to these questions, as range and where you aim matters.

It does sound to me like the factors most likely to cause a shooter to choose an AR-15 are...
-They look cool
-They feel like you are in a war setting/video game
-They are not overly expensive
-They get more media attention
-They allow for high capacity magazines

After reading Mega's post, I might add...
-They are readily available

It does seem infinitely more logical to go in with multiple handguns and/or a sawed off shotgun. If you are approaching a public place with a rifle, people are more likely to see you coming. If there is video surveillance, they might see you approaching and lock you out. Once you get into the public place, the rifle is going to limit your maneuverability, and if it jams, you are vulnerable.

 

[Medic007]

Where is he wrong?

All of it except that the .223 round is designed to hurt things. That's factual but newsflash... all firearm rounds are designed to hurt things.

There's a laundry list of rifle calibers faster than a .223. The velocity of the .223 is nothing special unless we're talking the .223 WSSM. There's a laundry list of rifle calibers on semi-automatic platforms. In fact, there are more than 60 calibers available on the AR platforms alone, many of them with 20, 25, and 30 round+ magazine sizes.

Larger calibers have more recoil just like in handgun calibers and shotguns, but with any decent recoil management system, it's not a whole lot more noticeable until you get into large calibers like the .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOm, .50 Beowolf, etc.

ARs have always been affordable, even during the ban days, with the exception of the run on ARs after the Sandy Hook shooting. Prices became insane for a few years after that. I bought my first AR15, a Bushmaster CAR15, for $500 in 1992. I bought and sold quite a few during the ban years for similar prices, between $500 and $1,000 depending on the rifle components. Much like clothing, cars, jewelry, houses, watches, etc, pricing depends entirely on the brands and the components of the rifle. You can get a cheap prebuilt S&W M&P15 for $500 or less today. You can buy a thoroughly decked out Noveske Gen 3 Recon Switchblock for more than $5,000.

 

[MegaPoke]

More or less likely to be fatal?

Let's say a guy goes into a crowded bar and points a shotgun at a person and fires. He/she is likely going to die, but wouldn't the majority of the blast stop after penetrating that person? On the other hand, an AR-15 or Gloc round, would be more likely to go through the initial victim, and hit one or more people behind him/her, right?

Just depends on what the round hits. An AR round is definitely capable of hitting more than one person, but it's going to have substantially less speed and do less damage on average if it hits someone else. Shotgun blasts into a crowd would definitely have the ability to injure and maim multiple people. Firing buckshot into a crowd would be like a grenade throwing shrapnel in one direction.

 

[Soonersincefitty]

There should be licenses. You need one to get married or operate a vehicle. The constitution provides for guns to be regulated and “licensed” by the government. During the founding times if you owned a military type rifle it was catalogued and registered with the government.

Nope, get us national laws demanding the use of voter IDs, then we'll entertain your idea.
Now we're negotiating.

 

[MegaPoke]

After reading Mega's post, I might add...
-They are readily available

It does seem infinitely more logical to go in with multiple handguns and/or a sawed off shotgun. If you are approaching a public place with a rifle, people are more likely to see you coming. If there is video surveillance, they might see you approaching and lock you out. Once you get into the public place, the rifle is going to limit your maneuverability, and if it jams, you are vulnerable.

Totally agree - For the sake of this convo - imagine yourself walking into a nazi convention in 1939 and you need to kill as many of them as possible - because the usual kind of mass shooting is too depressing to contemplate how you would approach executing it.

In that scenario, if I were strategizing about something like this, It would be a sawed off shotgun under a coat with two pistols as backups. Gets you right into a crowd without causing a stir. And at that range, the shotgun would be apocalyptic. A rifle of any kind is a bad choice for this unless you are going to take advantage of their superior range from cover.

 

[Syskatine]

Not really relevant but if anybody really wants to go shoot and have fun, get a .17. Freakishly accurate, easy, fun, cheap round to shoot. Those guns are really fun to customize and shoot.

 

[Been Jammin]

Totally agree - For the sake of this convo - imagine yourself walking into a nazi convention in 1939 and you need to kill as many of them as possible - because the usual kind of mass shooting is too depressing to contemplate how you would approach executing it.

In that scenario, if I were strategizing about something like this, It would be a sawed off shotgun under a coat with two pistols as backups. Gets you right into a crowd without causing a stir. And at that range, the shotgun would be apocalyptic. A rifle of any kind is a bad choice for this unless you are going to take advantage of their superior range from cover.

Agree. Very interesting.

 

[Syskatine]

More or less likely to be fatal?

Let's say a guy goes into a crowded bar and points a shotgun at a person and fires. He/she is likely going to die, but wouldn't the majority of the blast stop after penetrating that person? On the other hand, an AR-15 or Gloc round, would be more likely to go through the initial victim, and hit one or more people behind him/her, right?

I know that there are no concrete answers to these questions, as range and where you aim matters.

It does sound to me like the factors most likely to cause a shooter to choose an AR-15 are...
-They look cool
-They feel like you are in a war setting/video game
-They are not overly expensive
-They get more media attention
-They allow for high capacity magazines

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

All of it except that the .223 round is designed to hurt things. That's factual but newsflash... all firearm rounds are designed to hurt things.

There's a laundry list of rifle calibers faster than a .223. The velocity of the .223 is nothing special unless we're talking the .223 WSSM. There's a laundry list of rifle calibers on semi-automatic platforms. In fact, there are more than 60 calibers available on the AR platforms alone, many of them with 20, 25, and 30 round+ magazine sizes.

Larger calibers have more recoil just like in handgun calibers and shotguns, but with any decent recoil management system, it's not a whole lot more noticeable until you get into large calibers like the .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOm, .50 Beowolf, etc.

ARs have always been affordable, even during the ban days, with the exception of the run on ARs after the Sandy Hook shooting. Prices became insane for a few years after that. I bought my first AR15, a Bushmaster CAR15, for $500 in 1992. I bought and sold quite a few during the ban years for similar prices, between $500 and $1,000 depending on the rifle components. Much like clothing, cars, jewelry, houses, watches, etc, pricing depends entirely on the brands and the components of the rifle. You can get a cheap prebuilt S&W M&P15 for $500 or less today. You can buy a thoroughly decked out Noveske Gen 3 Recon Switchblock for more than $5,000.

Lol oh bullshit to so much of this.

 

[MegaPoke]

@Been Jammin check this out. 00 Buckshot has 9 .33 caliber lead pellets (52 grains each - same as one .223 round). Absolute carnage.

 

[MegaPoke]

Lol oh bullshit to so much of this.

What was he wrong about?

 

[Syskatine]

@Been Jammin check this out. 00 Buckshot has 9 .33 caliber lead pellets (52 grains each). Absolute carnage.

View embedded media

There are indeed equally or more suitable mass shooting weapons than the AR.

But AR is most commonly used. That's because it's become a cultural fixation. Rambo, Platoon, all the war movies, cop shows... good guys have the AR and bad guys have an AK.

Hard to talk about all the obvious alternatives and say the AR doesn't have special status cultrually.

 

[MegaPoke]

There are indeed equally or more suitable mass shooting weapons than the AR.

But AR is most commonly used. That's because it's become a cultural fixation. Rambo, Platoon, all the war movies, cop shows... good guys have the AR and bad guys have an AK.

Hard to talk about all the obvious alternatives and say the AR doesn't have special status cultrually.

You are clearly just fvcking with me at this point. I've explained the AR numbers. Multiple times.

 

[Syskatine]

What was he wrong about?

The recoil thing (big magnums kick the shit out of you pretty much no matter what -- after a .30 - '06 it's just a matter of how much.) and the 90's prices. He didn't buy anything in 1992, he's full of it. You may have been able to get sub-!1000 on some shitty AR's in '92, but not the main name brand AR's. Hell there weren't even that many in the 90's.

Costs have plummeted for AR's. I was thrilled to find one at a gun show (Colt) in early 00's for 800+.

Compare to M-14's. They're still high as hell and haven't come down at all and you can drive nails with a national match quality one.

 

[Pokeabear]

Limited range and rounds with a shot gun. You can pump 100 rounds with a short stock, short barrel AR in about 60 sec.

 

[Syskatine]

You are clearly just fvcking with me at this point. I've explained the AR numbers. Multiple times.

I've explained all this very specifically, why are you still saying that?

 

[MegaPoke]

Limited range and rounds with a shot gun. You can pump 100 rounds with a short stock, short barrel AR in about 60 sec.

I don't think range is an issue in these cases. Buckshot has effective range of 50 yards or more. Pistols usually are about 55 yards effective range. The AR has great range but it's never utilized in these scenarios. And you can use a shotgun with the same fire rate and magazine capacity as an AR. Some are even patterned after an AR design.

The only real tactical reason I can think of where a shooter might pick an AR if there is any thought given to it, is the lack of recoil. They are mostly noodle armed pussies who couldn't handle a semi-auto shotgun.

 

[Soonersincefitty]

Not really relevant but if anybody really wants to go shoot and have fun, get a .17. Freakishly accurate, easy, fun, cheap round to shoot. Those guns are really fun to customize and shoot.

17HMR?

I have a Savage bolt action.
Accurate is dang right. Set the scope for 100 yards.
Just plain fun.

 

[Been Jammin]

The only real tactical reason I can think of where a shooter might pick an AR if there is any thought given to it, is the lack of recoil. They are mostly noodle armed pussies who couldn't handle a semi-auto shotgun.

I don't think this fact can be overlooked. We are mostly talking about young men who have never participated in sports or spent time in the gym. They don't have the money to spend hours at the gun range, or don't want to tip anyone off to their plans by doing so.

Edit: I'm adding "lack of recoil" toward the top of my prior list

 

[Ostatedchi]

I don't think range is an issue in these cases. Buckshot has effective range of 50 yards or more. Pistols usually are about 55 yards effective range. The AR has great range but it's never utilized in these scenarios. And you can use a shotgun with the same fire rate and magazine capacity as an AR. Some are even patterned after an AR design.

The only real tactical reason I can think of where a shooter might pick an AR if there is any thought given to it, is the lack of recoil. They are mostly noodle armed pussies who couldn't handle a semi-auto shotgun.

This is a 12 gauge shot gun

Watch this video for 30 seconds at the 5 minute mark to see a semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun with a detachable magazine drum

 

[aix_xpert]

Where is he wrong? I'm genuinely looking for accurate info here.

I think the spew was regarding the clearly 'narrative driven' component of his statement: "the round is specifically designed to hurt PEOPLE".

 

[Ostatedchi]

This is why saying AR rifles but not shotguns is a worthless endeavor as an attempt to lower mass casualty events.

 

[Pokeabear]

This is why saying AR rifles but not shotguns is a worthless endeavor as an attempt to lower mass casualty events.

View embedded media

So are you all arguing we licensed shotguns as well?

 

[aix_xpert]

Totally agree - For the sake of this convo - imagine yourself walking into a nazi convention in 1939 and you need to kill as many of them as possible - because the usual kind of mass shooting is too depressing to contemplate how you would approach executing it.

In that scenario, if I were strategizing about something like this, It would be a sawed off shotgun under a coat with two pistols as backups. Gets you right into a crowd without causing a stir. And at that range, the shotgun would be apocalyptic. A rifle of any kind is a bad choice for this unless you are going to take advantage of their superior range from cover.

If this is me, I'm Timothy McVeigh'ing the site. Craters are more efficient than bullets every single time.

 

[2012Bearcat]

The recoil thing (big magnums kick the shit out of you pretty much no matter what -- after a .30 - '06 it's just a matter of how much.) and the 90's prices. He didn't buy anything in 1992, he's full of it. You may have been able to get sub-!1000 on some shitty AR's in '92, but not the main name brand AR's. Hell there weren't even that many in the 90's.

Costs have plummeted for AR's. I was thrilled to find one at a gun show (Colt) in early 00's for 800+.

Compare to M-14's. They're still high as hell and haven't come down at all and you can drive nails with a national match quality one.

Hate to burst your bubble but I paid less than $500 for my AR back when Obama was crying about them. I bought the parts and built it myself. I built several for friends of mine as well with some being as low as $400.

 

[MegaPoke]

Hate to burst your bubble but I paid less than $500 for my AR back when Obama was crying about them. I bought the parts and built it myself. I built several for friends of mine as well with some being as low as $400.

I bought an AR in 2009 with an legit M16 (Air Force) upper and a DPMS lower for $600

 

[Medic007]

Lol oh bullshit to so much of this

Do you really want me to pull your pants down and expose your micropenis to everyone? Fvck it, you asked for it...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AR_platform_calibers

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table2.htm

https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
(Sorry, not all of us are pussies when it comes to recoil. You should probably multiply everything in that chart by 10 to get to your level of pussy.)

He didn't buy anything in 1992, he's full of it. You may have been able to get sub-!1000 on some shitty AR's in '92, but not the main name brand AR's. Hell there weren't even that many in the 90's.

How many brands of ARs do you think existed in the 80's and 90's? A hint, there were only a couple. Here's some guys reminiscing about how much they paid for ARs in the 70s, 80s and 90s, chuckle...

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/pre-90s-ar-owners.728968/

Check it out and tell us about the insane prices people said they paid. Don't make me do it for you.

I was thrilled to find one at a gun show (Colt) in early 00's for 800+.

Lol. The fact that you overspent because you're clueless about firearms doesn't mean the rest of us have been that stupid. You could have bought a Bushmaster or Olympic Arms for cheaper than that Colt.

Anything else you want to try to bullshit us on, shyster?

 

[MegaPoke]

Colt AR’s have always been too expensive.

 

[Medic007]

Colt AR’s have always been too expensive.

Agreed. I've never bothered purchasing a Colt. Like overpriced designer jeans, Colt ARs never offered a quality that was superior enough to justify spending more on them. These days, there's way too many better options to even consider it. My Bushmaster CAR15 had a 14 inch barrel with a welded 2 inch flash supressor and it was more accurate than my friend's Colt AR15A2 with a 16 inch barrel.

 

[2012Bearcat]

I bought an AR in 2009 with an legit M16 (Air Force) upper and a DPMS lower for $600

That's impressive.

 

[2012Bearcat]

So are you all arguing we licensed shotguns as well?

You must be trolling as you're smarter than the above assumption. Just in case my impression is wrong, no they are not arguing that shotguns should be licensed, they are proving how stupid the anti gun wacko's AR15 argument is.

 

[Ostatedchi]

You must be trolling as you're smarter than the above assumption. Just in case my impression is wrong, no they are not arguing that shotguns should be licensed, they are proving how stupid the anti gun wacko's AR15 argument is.

You must be replying to someone I ignore.

 

[Been Jammin]

You must be trolling as you're smarter than the above assumption. Just in case my impression is wrong, no they are not arguing that shotguns should be licensed, they are proving how stupid the anti gun wacko's AR15 argument is.

He was being facetious.

 

[Been Jammin]

Do you really want me to pull your pants down and expose your micropenis to everyone? Fvck it, you asked for it...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AR_platform_calibers

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table2.htm

https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
(Sorry, not all of us are pussies when it comes to recoil. You should probably multiply everything in that chart by 10 to get to your level of pussy.)


How many brands of ARs do you think existed in the 80's and 90's? A hint, there were only a couple. Here's some guys reminiscing about how much they paid for ARs in the 70s, 80s and 90s, chuckle...

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/pre-90s-ar-owners.728968/

Check it out and tell us about the insane prices people said they paid. Don't make me do it for you.


Lol. The fact that you overspent because you're clueless about firearms doesn't mean the rest of us have been that stupid. You could have bought a Bushmaster or Olympic Arms for cheaper than that Colt.

Anything else you want to try to bullshit us on, shyster?

https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/almID/900005387204/

 

[OKSTATE1]

This issue really is not a gun problem.

I would even be willing to invest some tax dollars on this. IMO, here is how you fix Chicago and other crime "hotspots" in larger cities.

Here is what I would do in OKC:

1. Determine the crime hot spots in the City and determine the area of the worst crime.
2. Build a BIG community and Youth recreation center in that area. $25 million center at the min. Might need 3 or 4 of them.
3. Have buses that could take kids after school to this center.
4. Have the following programs (just to name a few);
- Computers and teachers available to help kids with home work
- Skilled labor training so when they graduate HS they can get a job
- Have various activities like cooking classes, sewing, art classes, basketball teams and tournaments, with the goal of these kids gaining self esteem
- Social and life skill mentoring for the youth, as well as for the parents. Many of these parents come out of single family homes and suffer from anger issues that makes them parent poorly, help them, given them some parenting skills.
- Counselors for kids that need counseling
- Bring in mentors to talk to the kids, how they were able to get out of poverty and a bad situation

The Dems are wanting to pay for free college education when the education system is so bad below the University system that the poor and minorities "graduating" from these HS's are not prepared for College coursework and will never get a degree, that gap will get wider handing out free college, not smaller. Just because you want to offer free education does not mean more kids are qualified to get a degree.

Investing dollars in the system below the College level is how to change areas that are full of crime and murder. You have to start changing the culture way before College, you have to train kids and parents about good role modeling, being an adult, opening their eyes to opportunities, building self esteem at an early age, and giving them a skill (carpenter, electrician, mechanic, etc..) so they can get a job out of HS at the very least. We are short 6 million skilled laborers in the US right now.

IF Congress wants to spend all this money on free college? It is wrong, that money would be better spent doing what I have suggested. They have the statistical data to show programs like this work in reducing crime in hot spot neighborhoods. Give parents and kids something meaningful to do after school hours.

I believe this would help our murder and gun "problem".

We need more not for profits building these types of programs and perhaps keeping this from being a tax burden.

 

[CBradSmith]

@Been Jammin check this out. 00 Buckshot has 9 .33 caliber lead pellets (52 grains each - same as one .223 round). Absolute carnage.

View embedded media

Damn. That's impressive.