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Boy, just can't get my arms around these conservatives.

I expanded my response while you were writing, apologies...

In some circumstances parties will only respond to external authority. The source of that force hasn't to supersede that of the parties, it must be viewed to be impartial to the parties to be credible, and it must have actual ability to hold parties accountable for non compliance. Anarchistic Society would not have entities with such power by your very definition.

You seem to assert on the one hand that there shall not be authority over individuals and then on the other ask "why would there not be authority over individuals". Your a smart dude, help me understand how both will be true.
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Prepare yourself, this is a very long reply!

David, nowhere in anarchist literature does it say there can be no authority over an individual. It argues there can be no legitimate authority over an individual without his prior consent.

Let’s take an example. Suppose Medic is a real estate developer. He buys a tract of land, puts in roads and sewer and power, plats the development into lots and begins to build houses.

Up to this point he is the sole owner of everything on the development. He devises covenants every potential buyer must agree to before he will sell.

One of the covenants says no home owner may ever leave his automobile on the driveway overnight, it is required to be put in the garage. Any home owner that leaves his automobile on the garage overnight will face the following consequences: First the homeowner will be issued a letter reminding of the covenant. Second time the auto will be towed at home owner’s expense. If there is a third breach of the covenant the auto will be towed, confiscated, sold at auction with the proceeds going toward maintenance of the neighborhood.

High Stick Harry is interested in buying, but that covenant is a huge sticking point. He just bought a new 4X4 and he prefers to leave it out. Medic says “sorry, but that is a covenant, no exceptions.” Harry, outraged, says “screw you” and buys another house in a different development, one that does not have such a requirement.

But I so love the neighborhood and one house in particular I don’t care what the covenant says I want the house. I sign the papers agreeing to abide by every covenant put forth.

The contracto stipulates that all disagreements will be arbitrated by the ABC Arbitration Company, with all appeals going to the XYZ Arbitration Company.

On the morning after the third time I leave my car in the driveway overnight I come out to find it gone, with a note on my front door explaining what has happened, and to contact ABC if I dispute the decision.

In what way is that different from how a governmental authority would handle the issue? The difference is High Stick Harry doesn’t fall under its purview. I didn’t abide by the contract to which I freely agreed, something I agreed in advance to accept. Harry told Medic to stuff it and lives happily ever after with his 4X4 leaking oil all over his driveway.

That’s how a free society could look.
 
.

Prepare yourself, this is a very long reply!

David, nowhere in anarchist literature does it say there can be no authority over an individual. It argues there can be no legitimate authority over an individual without his prior consent.

Let’s take an example. Suppose Medic is a real estate developer. He buys a tract of land, puts in roads and sewer and power, plats the development into lots and begins to build houses.

Up to this point he is the sole owner of everything on the development. He devises covenants every potential buyer must agree to before he will sell.

One of the covenants says no home owner may ever leave his automobile on the driveway overnight, it is required to be put in the garage. Any home owner that leaves his automobile on the garage overnight will face the following consequences: First the homeowner will be issued a letter reminding of the covenant. Second time the auto will be towed at home owner’s expense. If there is a third breach of the covenant the auto will be towed, confiscated, sold at auction with the proceeds going toward maintenance of the neighborhood.

High Stick Harry is interested in buying, but that covenant is a huge sticking point. He just bought a new 4X4 and he prefers to leave it out. Medic says “sorry, but that is a covenant, no exceptions.” Harry, outraged, says “screw you” and buys another house in a different development, one that does not have such a requirement.

But I so love the neighborhood and one house in particular I don’t care what the covenant says I want the house. I sign the papers agreeing to abide by every covenant put forth.

The contracto stipulates that all disagreements will be arbitrated by the ABC Arbitration Company, with all appeals going to the XYZ Arbitration Company.

On the morning after the third time I leave my car in the driveway overnight I come out to find it gone, with a note on my front door explaining what has happened, and to contact ABC if I dispute the decision.

In what way is that different from how a governmental authority would handle the issue? The difference is High Stick Harry doesn’t fall under its purview. I didn’t abide by the contract to which I freely agreed, something I agreed in advance to accept. Harry told Medic to stuff it and lives happily ever after with his 4X4 leaking oil all over his driveway.

That’s how a free society could look.

I like long answers and thanks for a good scenario for us to play with. Lets add a wrinkle:

Knowing that you will be coming I park in such a way that the tow truck is unable to confiscate my 4x4. In fact, I erect a barrier such that my 4x4 is blocked in by a nice grate. The HOA/developer decides to sue me and wins in binding arbitration! They get a judgement ordering me to remove the barrier, pay the arbitrators costs plus the fine you mention, and further they forbid me from continuing to park out front.

My answer - "screw you". I don't pay the bill, I don't stop parking in front, and I reinforce the barrier that protects my oil leaking 4x4. In your Anarchy Society - who granishes my wages for the unpaid fees? How does the HOA/Developer ultimately retake possession of the property (I would assume that is the ultimate penalty)?

While we are at it, who decided the property was owned by the developer in the first place? How did he get initial possession (trace that ownership back to who originally granted "ownership" if you can).
 
I like long answers and thanks for a good scenario for us to play with. Lets add a wrinkle:

Knowing that you will be coming I park in such a way that the tow truck is unable to confiscate my 4x4. In fact, I erect a barrier such that my 4x4 is blocked in by a nice grate. The HOA/developer decides to sue me and wins in binding arbitration! They get a judgement ordering me to remove the barrier, pay the arbitrators costs plus the fine you mention, and further they forbid me from continuing to park out front.

My answer - "screw you". I don't pay the bill, I don't stop parking in front, and I reinforce the barrier that protects my oil leaking 4x4. In your Anarchy Society - who granishes my wages for the unpaid fees? How does the HOA/Developer ultimately retake possession of the property (I would assume that is the ultimate penalty)?

While we are at it, who decided the property was owned by the developer in the first place? How did he get initial possession (trace that ownership back to who originally granted "ownership" if you can).

I’ll ignore the last question. The scenario as devised grants the developer has full ownership of the land and all upgrades made to it, until such time as he contracts with a buyer who agrees to all the covenants. That was a given from the very beginning.

If you erect a barrier so stout that the Owner or HOA can’t get to it, how do you get it out if your driveway to go to work?

In the story as devised no one garnishes your wages. The owner or the HOA contracts with a company to remove the barrier and confiscate the auto. The barrier is removed and the 4X4 is confiscated.
 
I’ll ignore the last question. The scenario as devised grants the developer has full ownership of the land and all upgrades made to it, until such time as he contracts with a buyer who agrees to all the covenants. That was a given from the very beginning.

If you erect a barrier so stout that the Owner or HOA can’t get to it, how do you get it out if your driveway to go to work?

In the story as devised no one garnishes your wages. The owner or the HOA contracts with a company to remove the barrier and confiscate the auto. The barrier is removed and the 4X4 is confiscated.
This was fun, David, I love things like this. But I’ve got a 13 hour drive to Atlanta facing me tomorrow. I’m going to bed. I’ll be happy to pick it up with you when I get back, about 10 days from now.
 
This is a non story.

Out of thousands of phone calls, 1500 didn’t answer. One call was made so if you were eating tamales at a friends or having a Ciesta, you are missing now.
 
This is a non story.

Out of thousands of phone calls, 1500 didn’t answer. One call was made so if you were eating tamales at a friends or having a Ciesta, you are missing now.

This is what I'm talking about. The 2016 poultry farm deal has been cited and discussed in this, and your response is that it must be people eating a tamale. See OP.
 
This is what I'm talking about. The 2016 poultry farm deal has been cited and discussed in this, and your response is that it must be people eating a tamale. See OP.

Just repeating what I hear on npr. Just heard 80% don’t show up for immigration hearings.

We are “losing” a lot of people.
 
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This is what I'm talking about. The 2016 poultry farm deal has been cited and discussed in this, and your response is that it must be people eating a tamale. See OP.

It's not that we we don't care, it's that we know you don't.

This was a stupid ass attempt to poke at Tump that Fudded in your face.

You trying to steer away from that is moronic.

Your new MO.
 
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I must have missed something.

We are in agreement that the threat of violence is the foundation that enforces all laws and keeps societal structure in place?
Yes. The question is from where that ultimate threat derives its agency - individual power or from the consensus of the people.

In most forms of a libertarian world there is no legitimate state authority over individuals. Totalitarianism/authoritarianism force derives from the despot. In a democratic republic ostensibly the authority derives from the governed through elected officials.

My argument with Dan is essentially that he supports an authoritarian world in so far as at the end of the day the big stick wins, not one of liberty based on a consensus of the governed.
 
It's not that we we don't care, it's that we know you don't.

This was a stupid ass attempt to poke at Tump that Fudded in your face.

You trying to steer away from that is moronic.

Your new MO.

And once again, please see the OP. You instantly reduced the awful issue to a Trump v. Obama thing, not me. OP didn't poke at Biff, and the reading material Dan posted early on (the same substantive info that I saw, along with every other non-conservative in America on Sunday morning that looked at twitter) shows that kids in federal custody were unaccounted for in at least two admin's. That was always the deal. It's unforgivable for any administration. A republican Senator started the stampede, fwiw. I poked at conservatives that don't give a shit, and the OP is 100% vindicated by your reaction.

The OP is still unaddressed -- why don't you people take notice of this stuff? Harry, Medic, apparently you -- all unaware it was even an issue. When brought to your attention, It doesn't resonate even a little with you people. A fictitious pedophile pizza parlor ring will melt the board, but kids over years disappearing? Eh. Someone is probably too busy eating tamales. You can't make this up.
 
It's not that we we don't care, it's that we know you don't.

This was a stupid ass attempt to poke at Tump that Fudded in your face.

You trying to steer away from that is moronic.

Your new MO.

You're such a dumbass. I didn't poke at Trump, the reading material early on shows that kids in federal custody were abused in 2016. It's unforgivable for any administration. I poked at conservatives that don't give a shit, and I've been 100% vindicated by your mouth breathing reaction. It boiled down to a Trump v. Obama thing by you people, and the kids can go eat fish heads.

The OP is still unaddressed -- why don't you people take notice of this stuff? Harry, Medic, apparently you -- all unaware it was even an issue. When brought to your attention, it doesn't resonate even a little with you people.
 
You're such a dumbass. I didn't poke at Trump, the reading material early on shows that kids in federal custody were abused in 2016. It's unforgivable for any administration. I poked at conservatives that don't give a shit, and I've been 100% vindicated by your mouth breathing reaction. It boiled down to a Trump v. Obama thing by you people, and the kids can go eat fish heads.

The OP is still unaddressed -- why don't you people take notice of this stuff? Harry, Medic, apparently you -- all unaware it was even an issue. When brought to your attention, it doesn't resonate even a little with you people.

Have you changed meds recently?
 
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kids in federal custody were unaccounted for i
But they aren’t in federal custody, are they? Aren’t they being housed with friends and family mostly? Are any of the “missing” kids in a federal camp somewhere? If I’m missing something here, I’m willing to listen.

along with every other non-conservative in America on Sunday morning that looked at twitter
I don’t have Twitter. Not planning on signing up, either.
 
It sounds like the rule of thumb is, if you want to complain about the current administration, use a picture of it taking place under the previous administration. That way, everyone will know that you are referring to the current administration, not the previous administration.
 
You're such a dumbass. I didn't poke at Trump, the reading material early on shows that kids in federal custody were abused in 2016. It's unforgivable for any administration. I poked at conservatives that don't give a shit, and I've been 100% vindicated by your mouth breathing reaction. It boiled down to a Trump v. Obama thing by you people, and the kids can go eat fish heads.
Bullshit. Complete bullshit, shyster.

You posted that meme the very morning it was exploding on the left's Twittersphere because you, like your window licking compadres, thought it was evidence of something juicy and Trumpy. Many of those same lefty Twitter twits made tweets that acknowledged the obvious fake news. You? You decided to make your permanent home on the peak of Mount Dipshit and hoped we didn't notice you all alone up there.
 
Who are we mad at here? The last four presidents who used our border as an off the record express personnel for their big business cronies? Are we mad at congress for not funding a border wall? Are we mad at their families who don’t answer the phone? Are we mad at the culture of these shit hole countries for making their lives so miserable that getting raped and separated from your parents is worth the risk to get away from their own kind?

I’m outraged by all of it, but no one is buying that you didn’t start this as anti trump based on your reputation and the fact that your friends did the same thing and had to delete their tweets. You can just stop with that nonsense, even if it is a miracle and that is true, we still won’t believe
You.
 
Bullshit. Complete bullshit, shyster.

You posted that meme the very morning it was exploding on the left's Twittersphere because you, like your window licking compadres, thought it was evidence of something juicy and Trumpy. Many of those same lefty Twitter twits made tweets that acknowledged the obvious fake news. You? You decided to make your permanent home on the peak of Mount Dipshit and hoped we didn't notice you all alone up there.

LOL bbbzzzzzzzztzzzzzztzzzzzbzzzbzzzbzzz

Who are we mad at here? The last four presidents who used our border as an off the record express personnel for their big business cronies? Are we mad at congress for not funding a border wall? Are we mad at their families who don’t answer the phone? Are we mad at the culture of these shit hole countries for making their lives so miserable that getting raped and separated from your parents is worth the risk to get away from their own kind?

I’m outraged by all of it, but no one is buying that you didn’t start this as anti trump based on your reputation and the fact that your friends did the same thing and had to delete their tweets. You can just stop with that nonsense, even if it is a miracle and that is true, we still won’t believe
You.

I'm not mad at anyone. Per OP, can't figure out the con mindset. Plenty to go ballistic on here, but zero interest if it's actually real information and not a phantasy pedophile pizza parlor. It was exploding on twitter when I posted that, and nada from the wingnuto'sphere. No. No. No. Well, maybe if they're supposed to be a foster parent. Yes, I kind of am. I've spent some time down there (Central America) and it's all corrupt and economically severely polarized. There's no opportunity or upward mobility as a practical matter from what little I could see.

But they aren’t in federal custody, are they? Aren’t they being housed with friends and family mostly? Are any of the “missing” kids in a federal camp somewhere? If I’m missing something here, I’m willing to listen.


I don’t have Twitter. Not planning on signing up, either.

Yeah, they ARE in federal custody, with basically foster families from the sound of it. Yes, mostly. I don't know where they are. I know some of them were mistreated. All this is kind of the point -- the questions have been around for a while and nobody is explaining where the kids are. I'd think it'd be a huge priority. Nope.
 
LOL bbbzzzzzzzztzzzzzztzzzzzbzzzbzzzbzzz
Expected response to your bullshit being called out yet again. But I'll play along for your sake.

Yes, we believe that you woke up Sunday morning suddenly overcome with emotion about stories that were covered in the media years earlier. It had nothing to do with lefty Twitter hysteria over fake news. It was pure coincidence that you posted one of the memes your window licking brethren were circulating as Trumpy. That sounds sooooooooooooo PLAUSIBLE.

So, let's hear your mewing about the lefties like you that were either yawning or silent when these stories were actually breaking news. Don't hold back. Get all kitty kat on their ass. Git eeem.
 
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Yeah, they ARE in federal custody, with basically foster families from the sound of it. Yes, mostly. I don't know where they are. I know some of them were mistreated. All this is kind of the point -- the questions have been around for a while and nobody is explaining where the kids are. I'd think it'd be a huge priority. Nope.
I think most of the foster families are the people the kids came up here to hook up with in the first place. At least that’s what I’ve concluded based upon what I’ve read. It is that reason, coupled with people that simply don’t answer their phone, that makes me unalarmed at this point.

And I don’t think the kids on the poultry farm were resettled by the government. I think those people were smuggled into the country for that specific purpose. No background checks. Not that that guarantees no abuse will occur, of course, but it should dramatically reduce the probability.

Gotta run. Maybe I can get some more work done before it rains.
 
Yes. The question is from where that ultimate threat derives its agency - individual power or from the consensus of the people.

In most forms of a libertarian world there is no legitimate state authority over individuals. Totalitarianism/authoritarianism force derives from the despot. In a democratic republic ostensibly the authority derives from the governed through elected officials.

My argument with Dan is essentially that he supports an authoritarian world in so far as at the end of the day the big stick wins, not one of liberty based on a consensus of the governed.
Damn, David, you talking about me behind my back? And finally answering the question you refused to answer to my face. I’m disappointed in you. I’m also too tired to explain your error. Maybe another time.
 
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How many of those 'lost' children simply walked away from their placement homes in order to escape deportation?
 
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And once again, please see the OP. You instantly reduced the awful issue to a Trump v. Obama thing, not me. OP didn't poke at Biff, and the reading material Dan posted early on (the same substantive info that I saw, along with every other non-conservative in America on Sunday morning that looked at twitter) shows that kids in federal custody were unaccounted for in at least two admin's. That was always the deal. It's unforgivable for any administration. A republican Senator started the stampede, fwiw. I poked at conservatives that don't give a shit, and the OP is 100% vindicated by your reaction.

The OP is still unaddressed -- why don't you people take notice of this stuff? Harry, Medic, apparently you -- all unaware it was even an issue. When brought to your attention, It doesn't resonate even a little with you people. A fictitious pedophile pizza parlor ring will melt the board, but kids over years disappearing? Eh. Someone is probably too busy eating tamales. You can't make this up.

You're such a dumbass. I didn't poke at Trump, the reading material early on shows that kids in federal custody were abused in 2016. It's unforgivable for any administration. I poked at conservatives that don't give a shit, and I've been 100% vindicated by your mouth breathing reaction. It boiled down to a Trump v. Obama thing by you people, and the kids can go eat fish heads.

The OP is still unaddressed -- why don't you people take notice of this stuff? Harry, Medic, apparently you -- all unaware it was even an issue. When brought to your attention, it doesn't resonate even a little with you people.

Hahaha.

Twins?

I'd recruit more help.
 
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This thead is weird. You have Sys arguing that he didn't post a 2014 picture and attribute it as a Trump issue, which has a bunch of posters bashing him for not owning his own mistake (one even the NYTimes has owned up). Then you have David and Ponca in parallel arguing whether we need a legal system or if people could handle it themselves. It makes for a real interesting read if you just read one post after another.
 
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