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April 30th Marks the End of the Vietnam War—and the Beginning of Its Myths

windriverrange

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McNamara put in place the following ROEs:

  • ground forces could only engage in “inhabited” areas if the enemy was identified and only for defensive purposes.
  • Use of artillery could only be used with the permission of the province chief.
  • Leaflets or loudspeakers needed to be used to warn civilians on incoming fire.
  • Soldiers were ordered to shoot only to wound.
And there’s this. Fleeing enemy troops needed to be told to halt before firing on them.

ROEs were just as absurd in the air.

  • Vietnam’s capital city Hanoi, along with major ports and rail stations, were off limits.
  • MiGs could only be engaged in the air, and only if they “displayed hostile intent.”
  • The newly developed “beyond visual range” missiles were useless because fighters needed to wait to see the enemy before engaging.
  • SAMs were off-limits unless they launched first.

If you have not read "Stolen Valor" about Vietnam I would suggest doing so, it lays out some of the points in this article. What I was never aware of was McNamara's ROE's, all I can say is wow, what a putz.
 
Vietnam was micromanaged from the White House. Me and the fierce warriors could have wrapped the skirmish in 2 weeks. The first 400 doggies on the ground in 1965 killed 1200 Kong in 48 hours.

Vietnam was wonderful for the US economy and the steel workers union. A. O. Smith built tons and tons of bombs and union workers bought tons of Ford F150 pickups.
 
A strictly defensive war is unwinnable. Always has been. There is less risk of losing soldiers but there is no risk if winning. Vietnam was like trying to win a football game by staying on your own 20 yard line.

ROE only works when identifying the enemy. Past past if they are shooting at you, shoot back and fire more rounds than they can. Always bring overwhelming force and always hit thier supply lines. War is politics simplified.
 
The war in Vietnam was one of the greatest blunders ever committed by our country. It was completely unnecessary and avoidable. So many smart people just flat out got it wrong in Vietnam, including a number of Presidents. So many people died (on both sides) that didn't have to die, so many injuried and are still dealing with the effects of this strategic blunder. Just a complete waste of life and resources.

And the way so many soldiers were treated after coming home was disgusting. The soldiers were not to blame for simply doing their job, being placed into a horrible situation.
 
A strictly defensive war is unwinnable. Always has been. There is less risk of losing soldiers but there is no risk if winning. Vietnam was like trying to win a football game by staying on your own 20 yard line.

ROE only works when identifying the enemy. Past past if they are shooting at you, shoot back and fire more rounds than they can. Always bring overwhelming force and always hit thier supply lines. War is politics simplified.

There wasn't less risk of losing soldiers; hell, we lost 58,220 servicemen in that POS war.
 
I was in the army during Viet Nam War. All during my basic and Advanced Individual Training (AIT) we were told that all of us would be stationed overseas. No USA duty stations. At the end of my AIT, I along with about 30 others were assigned an additional two weeks of AIT extended training. I assumed all of us were headed to Saigon. By some random chance and stroke of luck I was not selected for Viet Nam. I never regretted not going. We lost quit a few from my part of Oklahoma.
 
The US Industrial War Machine found its footing in the Viet Nam War. Brown and Root, Sea/Land Shipping and a few other major organizations reaped huge profits. Most of these major companies had direct ties to LBJ. Sea/Land was majority owned by Ladybird and chartered vessels for years contracted to the DOD.
 
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A strictly defensive war is unwinnable. Always has been. There is less risk of losing soldiers but there is no risk if winning. Vietnam was like trying to win a football game by staying on your own 20 yard line.

ROE only works when identifying the enemy. Past past if they are shooting at you, shoot back and fire more rounds than they can. Always bring overwhelming force and always hit thier supply lines. War is politics simplified.
Army told me they wanted to cut supply lines through Cambodia. Gov said "no." I was USAF.
 
There wasn't less risk of losing soldiers; hell, we lost 58,220 servicemen in that POS war.
Over a million will serve in Vietnam. 500k troops will be there for 5 years+. 58k is a low number. Mostly because we were not offensive. That being said the war was strategiesed by politicians, what do expect the outcome was going to be? These guys fought like tigers but were led by sheep. I have a lot of respect for the Vietnam vets. I have no respect for thier leaders.
 
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My Dad built/tested Houndog missiles as his full time side hustle in Tulsa for a few years in the early 70s. I graduated in 74 & should have enlisted to see the world in “peace time”.
Thanks to all who have served before and since
 
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Where were you, Sunburn?

I was at Cam Ranh with a brief stint at Phu Cat.
I never set foot in Vietnam. I was ordered to Vietnam from Clinton-Sherman AFB, OK. Just prior to flying out of OKC Will Rogers, I was ordered to Hickham AFB, Honolulu for some super secret Operation Windlass. After 31 days at Hickham, I was ordered back to Clinton-Sherman.

Hickham's base commander sent C-S base commander a letter thanking me for my contribution to Operation Windlass. I made Supply Man of the Month at C-S. To this day, I have no idea what Operation Windlass was. While at Hickham, I pumped oceans of JP-4 jet fuel onto C-133's returning to San Francisco with dead bodies.

Night time, I could here the giant 50,000 watt KOMA 1520 from OKC. The 2015 Moore tornado did in the 3 KOMA Western Electric antennas in Moore.
 
Funny story. I cannot imagine being stuck at Clinton-Sherman for any length of time. What was there do out there?

Enjoyed workin on J-57 engines on the KC-135 and B-52 but Altus, Oklahoma not so much. Nine months of life I’d like get back.
 
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The Dad of my best friend in HS served in Nam, he was a Green Beret. They lived down the street from us. My friend would show me notes his Dad would leave him about his chores around the house after school. Typed up like a military letter in Military speak. He also told me his Dad would call him a Gook a lot when he was freaking out. Cops called to their house regularly when his Dad was dealing with PTSD I am guessing. He also said his Dad told him he always slept with his gun at the ready as he was afraid some of his own men would kill him in his sleep.
I slept over one night and woke up in the middle of the night and his Dad was standing at the foot of my bed staring at me. Scared the crap out of me.
Not sure what all his Dad went thru over there but it really messed him up pretty bad.
 
Unfortunately, there were a lot of guys who were impacted in a negative way from that war. There was a fear that you would not believe. You can't imagine what it was like. You just can't. I wasn't ever there, but was close by for a year.
 
Funny story. I cannot imagine being stuck at Clinton-Sherman for any length of time. What was there do out there?

Enjoyed workin on J-57 engines on the KC-135 and B-52 but Altus, Oklahoma not so much. Nine months of life I’d like get back.
My cousin Harvey was stationed with me for a very short time at Clinton-Sherman. Out of the clear blue, he got orders for Wichita Falls. He was a jet engine mechanic.

I got to watch contractors build I-40 around Elk City. Merchants were outraged. I drove a buddy's 1967 Plymouth Belvidere GTX 440 V-8 140 MPH from the south approaching Clinton-Sherman. I let off the gas for the upcoming railroad tracks. Clinton-Sherman ended my tour in the AF.

My most memorable AF time was 15 months isolated at Goose AB where I studied MI-6, Navy Seal (non water) and British Gorkhali mercenary war tactics. 15 months of love-hate.
 
back then that Belvidere was a hot car but not very popular. Had a friend who owned one and it was impressive.
 
I spent 8 weeks in Military Police AIT and 2 weeks MP Special Ops at Ft. Gordon, Ga. On a crisp Saturday morning in March 1970 there were about 200 soldiers that fell out as instructed to the parade field. We had all packed and were prepared to leave immediately for our permanent duty station. They shouted out names and everyone called hustled to the designated area to be loaded onto buses and transported to Fort Jackson, SC for onward journeys that same day. Viet Nam, Korea, Germany and other lesser known locations for Marine MPs. There were six of us called to fallout and I was hoping they would tell us they had all they needed and we could go back to OKC. They said, "and you lucky sh!theads are going to the Canal Zone". Someone asked were and what is a canal zone. The drill sgt said and I will never forget it, "the Canal Zone is across the street from where prostitution and gambling is legal, beer cost $0.25 a bottle and you assho!es are in charge". I spent 18 months in Panama. It was like being on a tropical vacation.
 
Milo Gordon in Lawton ordered the GTX one way. Red 440 V-8 with Torque Flite tranny. Milo sold every one Chrysler would send him.

Chrysler sold 129,880 Belvederes in '67, not counting 'wagons.

Petty won a record 10 straight NASCAR races driving his electric blue '67 Belvedere.
 
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Milo Gordon in Lawton ordered the GTX one way. Red 440 V-8 with Torque Flite tranny. Milo sold every one Chrysler would send him.

Chrysler sold 129,880 Belvederes in '67, not counting 'wagons.

Petty won a record 10 straight NASCAR races driving his electric blue '67 Belvedere.

And in January '67, I left school in San Diego for the Naval Aviation Safety Center on NAS Norfolk, where I finished my enlistment w/o having ever setting foot on a ship. However, I did kill every Viet Cong that ever got close to NAS Norfolk.
 
The movers and shakers that got us stuck in the quagmire of Vietnam are from the same school that got us stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan and want us to get entangled in the Russia Ukraine affair.

War is a game to some of these people.
 
"My most memorable AF time was 15 months isolated at Goose AB where I studied MI-6, Navy Seal (non water) and British Gorkhali mercenary war tactics. 15 months of love-hate."

My most memorable AF time was sitting in the rain for an hour at Cam Ranh watching Ann Margaret in the flesh. She never made it down to Altus.

I would love to hear some of those Panama Canal stories.
 
My days in the Panama Canal Zone were like vacation time. Golf courses, tennis courts and world class water sports. The worst part of my time there was the initial flight from Fort Jackson to Howard AF Base. Cold ass C-130. The 534th MP Company was big MP company by comparison. It had many different divisions such Pass & ID, Town Patrol (in Panama City), Panamanian Liaison, Traffic, Line Duty (gates, residential patrol etc) and the best of all, Special Operations. We secured crime scenes for CID, ran border checks from Atlantic to Pacific Oceans, jungle patrol, search and rescue, etc. Sound exciting? Not so much. We had one murder in 18 months, a Mexican killed a Puerto Rican in a knife fight, both US army soldiers, search and rescue consisted most of butterfly chasers or relic hunters from around the world getting lost in the jungle. A few drownings in the sea but I was not a diver.

My Special Operations Unit was perfect. We lived in Two-Man Bachelors Qtrs above the PX at Ft. Clayton, just across the road from Mira Flores locks of the Canal. My roommate lives about ten miles from me today here in Arizona. We have been good friends for over 50 years and never lost touch. There were 16 of us in Sp Ops. Four on duty at any given time. We had a 1969 Ford Fairlane for our private use. It was medium blue and as plain as any car Ford ever made. No AC, no heater, no radio, 3 speed on the column, 4 door and ugly. Our prides were 6 Honda 250 Scramblers that we used to trek from one side of Panama to the other, cross over and return trip. US territory was separated from Panama by a power line road and square concrete studs about 18" x 18" and 4' high and every 100 meters. This was also our target practice time. We got all the expired 45 cal ammo for our pistols from the company armory. We had to return spent cartridges, or at least most of it. This border check happened once a month and we rotated this choice duty.

The US had very good relations with Panama during my time there. I had a counter-part in the National Laguardia named Sgt Major Aldo Batista. He was a very trusted partner.

The Top Cop in those days was Col Charlie Shuttleworth. Car One! He became my mentor and he was very instrumental in my six years in the army. I remained in touch with him over the years by written correspondence. He passed away in 2016 in Ft Huachuca, Arizona. He was a very talented artist. Especially water colors on drift wood. I was his official collector of drift wood from the beaches. He was the protector of the Special Operation Group.

Sp Ops had perks. As I said, prostitution was legal in Panama. There were girls from around the world working in bars and night clubs that was far better than what I was used to in Oklahoma. These girls were, on average, drop dead beautiful. Sp Ops could get these girls passes to enter the bases and special passes to shop in the PX Pharmacy and General Store. This was a HUGE bargaining chip and we took full advantage of it. The Catholic girls would go "off-duty" at midnight on Saturday. No working on Sunday. Sunday was the day that we loaded up the girls and headed up the coastline to small villages with thatched roofs huts and hand pump running water just off the beaches.

I asked my First Sgt if I could re-enlist for 20 years to stay in Panama. After 4 months of additional schooling with a TS4-Q security clearance. At that time Q indicated a nuclear arsenal clearance. I spent the last 3.5 years of my service as a Strategic Weapons Courier Guard based at Seneca Army Depot in Romulus, New York. A very select job that was afforded me by Col Shuttleworth. I have no war stories to tell about my military career.
 
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My days in the Panama Canal Zone were like vacation time. Golf courses, tennis courts and world class water sports. The worst part of my time there was the initial flight from Fort Jackson to Howard AF Base. Cold ass C-130. The 534th MP Company was big MP company by comparison. It had many different divisions such Pass & ID, Town Patrol (in Panama City), Panamanian Liaison, Traffic, Line Duty (gates, residential patrol etc) and the best of all, Special Operations. We secured crime scenes for CID, ran border checks from Atlantic to Pacific Oceans, jungle patrol, search and rescue, etc. Sound exciting? Not so much. We had one murder in 18 months, a Mexican killed a Puerto Rican in a knife fight, both US army soldiers, search and rescue consisted most of butterfly chasers or relic hunters from around the world getting lost in the jungle. A few drownings in the sea but I was not a diver.

My Special Operations Unit was perfect. We lived in Two-Man Bachelors Qtrs above the PX at Ft. Clayton, just across the road from Mira Flores locks of the Canal. My roommate lives about ten miles from me today here in Arizona. We have been good friends for over 50 years and never lost touch. There were 16 of us in Sp Ops. Four on duty at any given time. We had a 1969 Ford Fairlane for our private use. It was medium blue and as plain as any car Ford ever made. No AC, no heater, no radio, 3 speed on the column, 4 door and ugly. Our prides were 6 Honda 250 Scramblers that we used to trek from one side of Panama to the other, cross over and return trip. US territory was separated from Panama by a power line road and square concrete studs about 18" x 18" and 4' high and every 100 meters. This was also our target practice time. We got all the expired 45 cal ammo for our pistols from the company armory. We had to return spent cartridges, or at least most of it. This border check happened once a month and we rotated this choice duty.

The US had very good relations with Panama during my time there. I had a counter-part in the National Laguardia named Sgt Major Aldo Batista. He was a very trusted partner.

The Top Cop in those days was Col Charlie Shuttleworth. Car One! He became my mentor and he was very instrumental in my six years in the army. I remained in touch with him over the years by written correspondence. He passed away in 2016 in Ft Huachuca, Arizona. He was a very talented artist. Especially water colors on drift wood. I was his official collector of drift wood from the beaches. He was the protector of the Special Operation Group.

Sp Ops had perks. As I said, prostitution was legal in Panama. There were girls from around the world working in bars and night clubs that far better than was I was used to in Oklahoma. These girls were, on average, drop dead beautiful. Sp Ops could get these girls passes to enter the bases and special passes to shop in the PX Pharmacy and General Store. This was a HUGE bargaining chip and we took full advantage of it. The Catholic girls would go "off-duty" at midnight on Saturday. No working on Sunday. Sunday was the day that we loaded up the girls and headed up the coastline to small villages with thatched roofs huts and hand pump running water just off the beaches.

I asked my First Sgt if I could re-enlist for 20 years to stay in Panama. After 4 months of additional schooling with a TS4-Q security clearance. At that time Q indicated a nuclear arsenal clearance. I spent the last 3.5 years of my service as a Strategic Weapons Courier Guard based at Seneca Army Depot in Romulus, New York. A very select job that was afforded me by Col Shuttleworth. I have no war stories to tell about my military career.
You made me think of Her Majesty's Secret Service (MI-6) training at the Goose. Candidates had to live in a chamber for 30 days without a chamber maid ever knowing. I can still do it. My spouse attributes such a skill to my Indian part.

There was a Canadian Flight of WAFs in a barrack next to mine. Many absolutely gorgeous. Absolutely off limits to USAF airmen. Sometimes they left curtains drawn so we took many photos, some not so well clothed. The US side had much better facilities than the Canadian side, hence the women using the US barrack.

It was the Canadian side skating rink that hosted professional wrestling on Friday nights. Wrestlers would get off the flight from Toronto Friday AM all buddy buddy. They would kill each other on Friday night. Saturday morning's departure saw them all lovey dovey again.
 
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McNamara put in place the following ROEs:

  • ground forces could only engage in “inhabited” areas if the enemy was identified and only for defensive purposes.
  • Use of artillery could only be used with the permission of the province chief.
  • Leaflets or loudspeakers needed to be used to warn civilians on incoming fire.
  • Soldiers were ordered to shoot only to wound.
And there’s this. Fleeing enemy troops needed to be told to halt before firing on them.

ROEs were just as absurd in the air.

  • Vietnam’s capital city Hanoi, along with major ports and rail stations, were off limits.
  • MiGs could only be engaged in the air, and only if they “displayed hostile intent.”
  • The newly developed “beyond visual range” missiles were useless because fighters needed to wait to see the enemy before engaging.
  • SAMs were off-limits unless they launched first.

If you have not read "Stolen Valor" about Vietnam I would suggest doing so, it lays out some of the points in this article. What I was never aware of was McNamara's ROE's, all I can say is wow, what a putz.
So basically, the Johnson (D-Texas) administration sent our guys in to combat with their hands and one leg tied behind their backs. Thanks, democrooks.
 
It was the Canadian side skating rink that hosted professional wrestling on Friday nights. Wrestlers would get off the flight from Toronto Friday AM all buddy buddy. They would kill each other on Friday night. Saturday morning's departure saw them all lovey dovey again.
Stop! Just stop! Professional wrestling was real in those days! Right up until Midsouth shut down!🤬🤬🤬
 
So basically, the Johnson (D-Texas) administration sent our guys in to combat with their hands and one leg tied behind their backs. Thanks, democrooks.

If there is a bottom to Hell, that sorry bastard needs to rot there. 58,220 US troops were needlessly killed.
 
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I finished my enlistment w/o having ever setting foot on a ship.
I hear this from so many former sailors. I had a young cousin who enlisted in the navy a few years ago, and his entire tour was spent living on, or commuting to, a submarine in Pearl Harbor that was being refitted and never left the dock. He was disappointed that he never got to try out his sea legs, but living in Honolulu made up for it.

I know about half a dozen navy vets, and only one of them, a chopper pilot, actually served on a vessel that traveled in open water.

Ironically my dad, an army vet, crossed the Atlantic on a troop ship for deployment in West Germany during the Korean War.
 
If there is a bottom to Hell, that sorry bastard needs to rot there. 58,220 US troops were needlessly killed.
The Vietnam war was before my time. About all I remember was the fall of Saigon, and Louisiana seemed to suddenly get “invaded” by refugees from SE Asia. Never really talked with my folks about their politics in the late sixties, but I know they both voted for Goldwater in 64, and republican in every presidential election since then. They despised the hippies and the anti war movement, but I think they also turned against the war when they started hearing the stories mentioned in the OP. I doubt they were unique, which I suppose is why Vietnam ended as it did.
 
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My days in the Panama Canal Zone were like vacation time. Golf courses, tennis courts and world class water sports. The worst part of my time there was the initial flight from Fort Jackson to Howard AF Base. Cold ass C-130. The 534th MP Company was big MP company by comparison. It had many different divisions such Pass & ID, Town Patrol (in Panama City), Panamanian Liaison, Traffic, Line Duty (gates, residential patrol etc) and the best of all, Special Operations. We secured crime scenes for CID, ran border checks from Atlantic to Pacific Oceans, jungle patrol, search and rescue, etc. Sound exciting? Not so much. We had one murder in 18 months, a Mexican killed a Puerto Rican in a knife fight, both US army soldiers, search and rescue consisted most of butterfly chasers or relic hunters from around the world getting lost in the jungle. A few drownings in the sea but I was not a diver.

My Special Operations Unit was perfect. We lived in Two-Man Bachelors Qtrs above the PX at Ft. Clayton, just across the road from Mira Flores locks of the Canal. My roommate lives about ten miles from me today here in Arizona. We have been good friends for over 50 years and never lost touch. There were 16 of us in Sp Ops. Four on duty at any given time. We had a 1969 Ford Fairlane for our private use. It was medium blue and as plain as any car Ford ever made. No AC, no heater, no radio, 3 speed on the column, 4 door and ugly. Our prides were 6 Honda 250 Scramblers that we used to trek from one side of Panama to the other, cross over and return trip. US territory was separated from Panama by a power line road and square concrete studs about 18" x 18" and 4' high and every 100 meters. This was also our target practice time. We got all the expired 45 cal ammo for our pistols from the company armory. We had to return spent cartridges, or at least most of it. This border check happened once a month and we rotated this choice duty.

The US had very good relations with Panama during my time there. I had a counter-part in the National Laguardia named Sgt Major Aldo Batista. He was a very trusted partner.

The Top Cop in those days was Col Charlie Shuttleworth. Car One! He became my mentor and he was very instrumental in my six years in the army. I remained in touch with him over the years by written correspondence. He passed away in 2016 in Ft Huachuca, Arizona. He was a very talented artist. Especially water colors on drift wood. I was his official collector of drift wood from the beaches. He was the protector of the Special Operation Group.

Sp Ops had perks. As I said, prostitution was legal in Panama. There were girls from around the world working in bars and night clubs that far better than was I was used to in Oklahoma. These girls were, on average, drop dead beautiful. Sp Ops could get these girls passes to enter the bases and special passes to shop in the PX Pharmacy and General Store. This was a HUGE bargaining chip and we took full advantage of it. The Catholic girls would go "off-duty" at midnight on Saturday. No working on Sunday. Sunday was the day that we loaded up the girls and headed up the coastline to small villages with thatched roofs huts and hand pump running water just off the beaches.

I asked my First Sgt if I could re-enlist for 20 years to stay in Panama. After 4 months of additional schooling with a TS4-Q security clearance. At that time Q indicated a nuclear arsenal clearance. I spent the last 3.5 years of my service as a Strategic Weapons Courier Guard based at Seneca Army Depot in Romulus, New York. A very select job that was afforded me by Col Shuttleworth. I have no war stories to tell about my military career.
Great Stuff! Thanks for sharing.
 
Me & snuff spitting Great Granny used to watch Danny Hodge on the Tulsa circuit in the early 60s when he was always the ‘good’ guy who miraculously always found a way to win in spite of the evil ones treachery
 
I may have mentioned this already, but before I arrived in Norman, I could name only 6 Oklahoma cities or towns. One from geography class, two from songs, two from college football, and one from professional wrestling:

Oklahoma City
Tulsa
Norman
Stillwater
Muskogee
Bixby
Whhhaaaat? You hadn’t heard of Ponca City? Oklahoma’s most famous town of all?
 
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