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**Afghanistan master thread**

OKSTATE1 said:
They messed up on Kabul months ago, they kept 100,000 Taliban terrorists at check with 2,500 soldiers. Every time they took an inch, we use to strike them with F-18's. They moved back. That is what Trump negotiated.
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Factually incorrect. Doha was not about holding the Taliban in place - Doha was about not killing US troops. Here is the treaty if you haven't read it. As a matter of fact, the Taliban took ground from the Afghani government in 2020 accelerating their gains in the past 3 months.
 
HighStickHarry said:
I’ll take you one further. The military leadership and intelligence leadership should have known they were going to fold, used trumps agreement that was working as no Americans were being targeted and secured Kabul BEFORE the ANA headed for the hills.
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Do you understand how many players there are right now in Afghanistan that were NOT party to the Doha Accords? Do you know which party was responsible for the loss of 13 Americans and 100+ Afghanis? Tell me how much sway "trumps agreement" had in that attack?

I suppose we could just go with - "we should have nuked the ****ers back in 2001" and avoided all this huh?
 
davidallen said:
Do you understand how many players there are right now in Afghanistan that were NOT party to the Doha Accords? Do you know which party was responsible for the loss of 13 Americans and 100+ Afghanis? Tell me how much sway "trumps agreement" had in that attack?

I suppose we could just go with - "we should have nuked the ****ers back in 2001" and avoided all this huh?
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I assume trumps sway ended after mashed potato brains took over. Unless you are Barack Obama that’s usually how it works.
 
davidallen said:
Do you understand how many players there are right now in Afghanistan that were NOT party to the Doha Accords? Do you know which party was responsible for the loss of 13 Americans and 100+ Afghanis? Tell me how much sway "trumps agreement" had in that attack?

I suppose we could just go with - "we should have nuked the ****ers back in 2001" and avoided all this huh?
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Someone on this board, I forget who it was, suggested exactly that a few days ago. I think the word he used was we should "vaporize" them. That would have ended the war alright. I wonder if @Syskatine would have cheered as joyfully that vaporizing a few million human beings ended the war. I wonder if @my_2cents would have assured us that vaporizing a few million people was just part of a "messy" ending to a war.
 
davidallen said:
I would hope you see how contradictory these two assertions are:

They never factored in the worst-case scenarios
and
They admit they priced in innocents dying


The military is chocked full of folks game planning every possible scenario. It is much more likely IMO that the "strategists" weren't able to come to a clear consensus and left it to the politicians. I hope the backstory on this whole thing gets exposed.
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You limit casualties by factoring in worst case scenarios and closing the risk window. Their risk assessment should have said we will factor in the worst case scenario and plan and execute in that manner expecting the worst to avoid as much risk as possible and limit the bad consequences. Why do you think so many are angry? To not understand this as a horribly failed evac operation due to the leadership of our military is a joke. Who in hell in a military operation with LIVES at stake assume the Taliban will protect us, the Taliban can be trusted, and our own General telling us yesterday the Taliban was "pragmatic and helpful to the US"? That is who planned this shit show, we have woke Generals that trust the enemy and planned accordingly. We planned for a marsh mellow cookout with the Taliban, all that cooked was 13 military personnel, 200 other innocents, and who knows how many left in Afghanistan that should not have been left behind and who knows how many revenge killings.

They accepted in advance casualties due to the chaos they knew they would create, Biden admitted that. Had they planned better and expected the worst scenario, very good chance no military personnel would have been lost during Evac as well as limiting other deaths. If we had worked with our Allies as well perhaps the UK would not have rebuked a US Prez for the first time ever, Allies don't trust us, and now North Korea starting back up their nuke plant. I am sure Joe will trust them to.

What was the issue after 20 years and trillions of dollars spent to leave correctly? The issue is a narcistic Prez who was hell bent on meeting his personal deadline of withdrawal so he could have a photo op on 9/11. I said it weeks ago and so proud of the Gold Star Mother that said that exact same thing on national media.

86% of the American public actually gets it.
 
OKSTATE1 said:
You limit casualties by factoring in worst case scenarios and closing the risk window. Their risk assessment should have said we will factor in the worst case scenario and plan and execute in that manner expecting the worst to avoid as much risk as possible and limit the bad consequences. Why do you think so many are angry? To not understand this as a horribly failed evac operation due to the leadership of our military is a joke. Who in hell in a military operation with LIVES at stake assume the Taliban will protect us, the Taliban can be trusted, and our own General telling us yesterday the Taliban was "pragmatic and helpful to the US"? That is who planned this shit show, we have woke Generals that trust the enemy and planned accordingly. We planned for a marsh mellow cookout with the Taliban, all that cooked was 13 military personnel, 200 other innocents, and who knows how many left in Afghanistan that should not have been left behind and who knows how many revenge killings.
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I am not defending the evac operation. I was of the opinion that we should have started the SIV process a month before we announced we would meet the Aug. 31 deadline. I would have been sympathetic to a surge of troops to where ever we would be staging our exit from. I am in no way going to assert that the outcome would have been better, but that would have seemed a more prudent plan even as it would have significantly undercut the Afghani government. That is in my opinion the trade-off that Biden was seeking - to give as much credibility to the Afghan military and government as possible in the belief that they would then be better positioned to negotiate a coalition government upon our exit.

It is just too easy to say "9-11 photo op" was the driver here. Too easy, too pessimistic, too tribal. But hey, that is what is driving clicks and ears right now. Gotta sell that advertising somehow...
 
davidallen said:
I am not defending the evac operation. I was of the opinion that we should have started the SIV process a month before we announced we would meet the Aug. 31 deadline. I would have been sympathetic to a surge of troops to where ever we would be staging our exit from. I am in no way going to assert that the outcome would have been better, but that would have seemed a more prudent plan even as it would have significantly undercut the Afghani government. That is in my opinion the trade-off that Biden was seeking - to give as much credibility to the Afghan military and government as possible in the belief that they would then be better positioned to negotiate a coalition government upon our exit.

It is just too easy to say "9-11 photo op" was the driver here. Too easy, too pessimistic, too tribal. But hey, that is what is driving clicks and ears right now. Gotta sell that advertising somehow...
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Joe Biden is a fifty year veteran of the political game, a consummate politician. And political considerations are always the driving force behind any politician's decision. It's abundantly clear that the "9-11 photo op" was a primary consideration in his decision. Originally he wanted the pullout to be on 9-11, but even his handlers thought that was too cheesy, so he moved to to 8-31. I would agree that the photo op was not the only factor in his addled mind. But it most likely was the primary one. That being said I am going to shock you and say I have very little to quibble with you about the rest of your comment.
 
davidallen said:
It is just too easy to say "9-11 photo op" was the driver here. Too easy, too pessimistic, too tribal.
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Coming from you this is really hypocritical. You do understand Afghanistan actually has a fighting season? The only reason Biden did this during the Afghanistan fighting season was to meet his deadline, 9/11 weighed in to that. Otherwise you wait to withdraw until the fighting season is over and we have more tactical advantages.

Biden screwed up and gave away every tactical advantage he had, he had a self imposed deadline more important to him than maximizing tactical advantages.

Nothing tribal or pessimistic about it, you fail to understand this is not about Americans being pessimistic, it is about many American being pissed off a bunch of 5th graders could have planned this better, 86% of us.

Joe is incapable of planning a two car funeral he is so mentally diminished and narcistic. Will not take questions, gets angry at some questions and refuses to answer, and for some reason he has to follow a script of certain reporters to call on, probably like the debates. The reporters get the questions in advance.

Failure in Chief.
 
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davidallen said:
I tried Harry but you don't want to have a serious conversation on this. No worries. This is the way.
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Looks like I hit the bullseye. Biden made a point to reverse everything trump did but he just couldn’t get out of the trump deal huh? Yea you better run away from this conversation.
 
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davidallen said:
I do tend to agree that keeping Bagram would have been a better strategic move. Hindsight tends to be 20/20 - especially when there is no way to actually know what would have happened differently.
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Might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on here. It’s literally their job to work out the strategy.
 
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Syskatine said:
Good God.

Culting his ass off today.
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You are defending the Biden massacre when libs and softies around the world aren’t even attempting to. When you accuse someone of something you just happen to do that thing in spades which really explains your obsession with Republican pedophiles.
 
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HighStickHarry said:
You are defending the Biden massacre when libs and softies around the world aren’t even attempting to. When you accuse someone of something you just happen to do that thing in spades which really explains your obsession with Republican pedophiles.
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The President doesn't get to call on my sacrifices as a reason for treasonous retreat. It should be a reason to ensure the Taliban were not in control of the country when we withdrew. Now he just told everyone who served, sacrificed, and died that it was for nothing. Oh well lets move on. No Mr. President you don't get to use my sacrifices to justify your **** up.
 
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HighStickHarry said:
Looks like I hit the bullseye. Biden made a point to reverse everything trump did but he just couldn’t get out of the trump deal huh? Yea you better run away from this conversation.
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In reality, Biden has undone very little of what Trump did. Disappointing.
 
davidallen said:
In reality, Biden has undone very little of what Trump did. Disappointing.
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It strikes no one by surprise that you think tens of thousands of illegal aliens full of covid coming across the border at a record clip is “very little”
 
davidallen said:
Possible? Certainly. Smart? Probably not.

What is the calculus here? How many more suicide attacks are worth risking to get out the 183 or so remaining American citizens? How does that risk compare to working diplomatically and covertly to exfiltrate those folks?
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It worked once, right?
 
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davidallen said:
Possible? Certainly. Smart? Probably not.

What is the calculus here? How many more suicide attacks are worth risking to get out the 183 or so remaining American citizens? How does that risk compare to working diplomatically and covertly to exfiltrate those folks?
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President Biden ordered the military to evacuate. Would that serve to deter suicide attacks or embolden the attackers?

So if we keep our ability for defense in place (and go on limited offense if necessary), then maybe none of this happens in the first place.

183? I wonder about that.
 
Without all the extra pieces what are the facts on Afghanistan?

1. The president lied to the American people not a month before this operation saying the Taliban would never take Afghanistan.
2. Americans were left behind.
3. 13 soldiers were killed in an attack on the airport.
4. American military equipment was left behind and is now controlled by the Taliban.
5. Afganis died while trying to hang on to America aircraft.
6. The British Parliament has held the POTUS in contempt.


Feal free to add to the list but these 6 facts alone are reason enough to remove Biden. Hell the first 3 are enough.
 
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Tulsaaggieson said:
Without all the extra pieces what are the facts on Afghanistan?

1. The president lied to the American people not a month before this operation saying the Taliban would never take Afghanistan.


Feal free to add to the list but these 6 facts alone are reason enough to remove Biden. Hell the first 3 are enough.
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I'll play. Cite for this?
 
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