A Banner Day For Cronyism, A Bitter Day For Freedom & Prosperity
- Thread starter Ponca Dan
- Start date
In their defense, they aren't competing against free enterprise -- I think the Chinese government subsidizes their steel industry.
So what? How dare those rotten foreigners sell steel at a lower price than US Steel thinks they ought to! The audacity, the unmitigated gall! Americans buying steel products at a cheaper price! This is cronyism at its finest hour. The Left criticizes Trump for every stupid thing he says. He does something truly stupid and what do they do? Why they applaud right alongside the Right. This will end badly. And when it does guess what will get blamed. Free Markets, of course!
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I wonder if yoy’ll say “meh” when every product made of steel that you want to buy costs 3-6% more. When you realize the extra money you got from the tax reform is wiped out by higher prices and it turns out you are no better off - or possibly worse off - than before. All to “save” 140K jobs that weren’t in any real danger to begin with. While as many as 5.4 million downstream jobs are put in jeopardy. And people say the never Trumpsters have Trump Derangement Syndrome!
Further evidence of the absolute stupidity of tariffs:
http://www.aei.org/publication/you-might-be-a-protectionist-2/
http://www.aei.org/publication/you-might-be-a-protectionist-2/
It may surprise you to know that I agree with you on this point nearly 100%.
Strategic intervention is one thing, but this is stupidity. Historically the benefit of these types of moves accrues to the C suite not to the growth of the industry or workers. Even Trumps justification is disingenuous.
You having a little fun or do you believe that Trump’s tweet that you cited is true and correct?
So let's have free trade or not have free trade. Kind of hard for an essential American industry to compete with the Chinese Government. I'm not saying that's the truth, even, it's just what I've heard and a lot of people are saying it. Okay, everyone is saying it Dan and it's time that we make this country great again. We finally have a POTUS with balls and we're going to win this trade war by June 1.
Are you OUT OF YOUR MIND suggesting I'm endorsing anything Biff? WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?
I am humbled by my transgression. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.
Don Boudreaux has some questions:
http://cafehayek.com/2018/03/yet-another-open-letter-scarcityist-chief-2.html
http://cafehayek.com/2018/03/yet-another-open-letter-scarcityist-chief-2.html
I am in agreement with you on punitive tariffs. In a perfect world there would be no tariffs.
However, if the Chinese government is subsidizing Chinese steel companies the effect is again artificially influencing the free market. I also don't think you will find too many on "the right" who agree with Trymp on this move.
You are absolutely correct: if the Chinese government is subsidizing their steel companies they are influencing the free market. I repeat my question: so what? Their antics in no way harm the American economy. In fact they are harming their own people, taxing them to pay their steel companies to sell steel to us at low prices. It is a boon to the American economy, not a drag. We can buy products made from steel at low prices. That's a good thing. Thank you China!
Wait -- I thought you were an absolute advocate of free markets. What you are describing is not a completely free market.
Yes, I am absolutely an advocate for free markets. My point is that governments who subsidize their industries do not harm the economy of countries to whom they export. They harm themselves. They SHOULD practice free markets. But if they don't practice free markets they don't hurt those countries that do. They harm themselves. That is Economics 101. Donald Trump's economic team is made up of an astonishing number of short sided individuals. Their response to China harming its own people is to declare they want to harm us! Astonishingly ignorant!
Always with the Chimp references from you people when it comes to Republican Presidents.
I think it's a matter of seeing the forest for the trees. China thinks in decades and century increments. We think of how a certain policy will affect the stock price the next day.
What good could possibly come from our manufacturing base being completely hollowed out in war time? You don't think that is what China thinks about? I'll pay $5 more for a hubcap if it protects our manufacturing jobs and national sovereignty. Since you are true to your libertarian beliefs and would rather do away with borders and all that, which I respect, I realize why you answer the way you do. However, as has been stated on this board often, this is where the Libertarian doctrine breaks down (theoretical world vs. actual/realpolitik).
$5 more for a hubcap. $900 to $2500 more for a car. $60 to $500 more for your lawnmower. $60 more for your washing machine. Another $60 for the matching dryer. $60 more for your new dishwasher. An extra $100 for your kid’s new bicycle. Add another $35 for a vacuum cleaner. $30 to $150 for you to buy a new set of pots and pans. Shall I go on? This does not count the lost jobs in downstream markets, manufacturers that use machines made from steel. George Bush’s tariff on steel “saved” 140K steel jobs, and cost 200K jobs in downstream industries. This does not include jobs lost because foreign countries retaliated with tariffs of their own against American exports. Trump is stupidly launching the first salvo in what may become a world wide trade war. What happens to manufacturers of medical equipment, for example, if China slaps a 25-35% tariff on their products? Tariffs are bad news. It has nothing to do with libertarian philosophy. But here’s what the libertarian in me has to say about reality/realpolitik: do you know what countries who freely trade with each don’t do? They don’t go to war with each other.
That's really a nonsense response to what he stated, and the Dow was down for the day.
And right on cue here’s Mark Perry discussing Bush’s 2002 steel tariff:
https://fee.org/articles/president-trumps-predecessors-learned-about-steel-tariffs-the-hard-way/
A foreign nation’s response. Is anyone surprised?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/02/business/europe-steel-tariffs-trump.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/02/business/europe-steel-tariffs-trump.html
And here. Everyone happy?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/02/us/politics/trump-tariffs-steel-aluminum.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/02/us/politics/trump-tariffs-steel-aluminum.html
Bloomberg discusses winners and losers. Which one are you?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...rs-from-trump-s-tariffs-on-aluminum-and-steel
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...rs-from-trump-s-tariffs-on-aluminum-and-steel
You seem to believe that a lot of us here support Trump on these tariffs. I'd guesstimate fewer than a 1/2 dozen here do.
My OCD has hit overdrive on this subject. My comments are directed at those people who think the tariffs will be good for the country, and for themselves individually. I hope you are right, and I hope the people put enough pressure on their congresscritters and senators to bring this stupidity to a halt before Trump does something really dangerous.
