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WitCraft

chasepollard

chasepollard

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 25, 2005
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What a weekend by this young man! He was right there with the best of the conference, which brings me to my question.

Did Stevo lock hands just prior to his takedown in OT? I couldn't quite tell from the TV angle, but it sure looked like he locked his hands around the head, which aided him in his takedown.
 
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I think we saw what Witcraft can do with more recovery time. For some duals he had 1 hour, when we won the coin flip he had around 2. At Big12s he started with 2 and had several hours before his semi & 3rd place match.
 
Wrassler17 said:
I think we saw what Witcraft can do with more recovery time. For some duals he had 1 hour, when we won the coin flip he had around 2. At Big12s he started with 2 and had several hours before his semi & 3rd place match.
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Oh yeah, I agree!

Did you notice locked hands?
 
It's also a month since he first wrestled at 125. Could be getting used to it/having an easier time.
 
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chasepollard said:
Oh yeah, I agree!

Did you notice locked hands?
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I didn't see anything live so I went back and rewatched. Poulin did lock hands for a second and then quickly released the grip.

Is that illegal? I'm really not sure of the rule. I thought there was a penalty for locking around the head in a pinning combination, but they were still in neutral? The ref was right on top of it too, I hope it wasn't a missed call.
 
Mr. Blonde said:
It's also a month since he first wrestled at 125. Could be getting used to it/having an easier time.
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That's exactly what he said in his post b12 torny interview. Said at first he was worried about his weight and that it takes a while month + to get used to it. Said now he feels good and has a few tricks up his sleeve for nationals.
 
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Wrassler17 said:
I didn't see anything live so I went back and rewatched. Poulin did lock hands for a second and then quickly released the grip.

Is that illegal? I'm really not sure of the rule. I thought there was a penalty for locking around the head in a pinning combination, but they were still in neutral? The ref was right on top of it too, I hope it wasn't a missed call.
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locking hands around head without an arm included is illegal, unless already in pinning combination AND criteria
 
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CowboyUp61 said:
locking hands around head without an arm included is illegal, unless already in pinning combination AND criteria
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@Wrassler17 this is my interpretation as well. He didn't have an arm and it sure looked like he locked his hands that may have aided in the TD?
 
CowboyUp61 said:
locking hands around head without an arm included is illegal, unless already in pinning combination AND criteria
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Yeah, I forgot the word unless. Kind of important, lol. I was thinking of a bear hug straight to the back, you don't have to release that lock. Same with the head.
chasepollard said:
@Wrassler17 this is my interpretation as well. He didn't have an arm and it sure looked like he locked his hands that may have aided in the TD?
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Yeah, seems strange. Poulin definitely locked hands and then released them as though he realized it was a bad idea. The ref was looking right at it too. You might be right.
 
Wrassler17 said:
Yeah, I forgot the word unless. Kind of important, lol. I was thinking of a bear hug straight to the back, you don't have to release that lock. Same with the head.

Yeah, seems strange. Poulin definitely locked hands and then released them as though he realized it was a bad idea. The ref was looking right at it too. You might be right.
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Man, I think @CowboyUp61 is probably correct on the verbiage of the rule, but I can't think of a situation where locking hands without an arm, on the head is legal?

Good to know I wasn't seeing things though...not sure why it wasn't called.
 
chasepollard said:
Man, I think @CowboyUp61 is probably correct on the verbiage of the rule, but I can't think of a situation where locking hands without an arm, on the head is legal?

Good to know I wasn't seeing things though...not sure why it wasn't called.
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in a guillotine is the most common. Leg riders...

you do get reaction time, and most refs will be smart
 
chasepollard said:
I don't think you can lock your hands on a guillotine or riding legs?
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I think you can on a guillotine, but CowboyUp61 can confirm...

I rewatched on the multiscreen. Anthony Robles didn't comment on it. And I think the ref was looking for 90 degrees for the neutral danger, so he might not have noticed. To me it was more than reaction time, Poulin seemed to use it for leverage on the crossface. I honestly have no idea why it wasn't called, might just have been a miss.
 
Wrassler17 said:
I think you can on a guillotine, but CowboyUp61 can confirm...

I rewatched on the multiscreen. Anthony Robles didn't comment on it. And I think the ref was looking for 90 degrees for the neutral danger, so he might not have noticed. To me it was more than reaction time, Poulin seemed to use it for leverage on the crossface. I honestly have no idea why it wasn't called, might just have been a miss.
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Guillotine is part of the front headlock series, which requires an arm. There is too much leverage on the head and neck without a leverage blocl(arm) for the safety of competitors.
 
chasepollard said:
Guillotine is part of the front headlock series, which requires an arm. There is too much leverage on the head and neck without a leverage blocl(arm) for the safety of competitors.
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never heard a guillotine described as part of front headlock series, but you are correct a front headlock without an arm is illegal. This is a guillotine as i grew up. The start of it, anyway.


330384960_1139657223374350_7502890547841506799_n.jpg
 
CowboyUp61 said:
never heard a guillotine described as part of front headlock series, but you are correct a front headlock without an arm is illegal. This is a guillotine as i grew up. The start of it, anyway.


330384960_1139657223374350_7502890547841506799_n.jpg
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Dang it, that's right? I was thinking guillotine you see in the UFC. You know choke a guy completely out on your feet...which seems like it fits in a front head-lock set.

You are right, I am wrong and I totally slipped on guillotine. I might have won more matches if I learned more on top instead of just trying to be a tough rider. That top series totally slipped my mind.
 
chasepollard said:
Dang it, that's right? I was thinking guillotine you see in the UFC. You know choke a guy completely out on your feet...which seems like it fits in a front head-lock set.

You are right, I am wrong and I totally slipped on guillotine. I might have won more matches if I learned more on top instead of just trying to be a tough rider. That top series totally slipped my mind.
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UFC and WWE are ruining wrestling terminology for us old guys ;)
 
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CowboyUp61 said:
UFC and WWE are ruining wrestling terminology for us old guys ;)
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No, you were 100% correct. I’m the one who mixed up terminology. I kept thinking, these guys know wrestling and they keep saying you can lock your hands in a guillotine...they must not have seen the choke-outs in the cages? There’s no way that’s a legal hold!

Then, you come with that one picture and boom, I got thumped in an internet match of correct.

The bad thing is, that was my go-to stall move on top if I accidentally got the legs in where I wasn’t too high AND Skylar Holman rode me for like 8 periods and probably used it 32 times!
 
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I need to qualify the Holman situation...I only wrestled him once. Somehow, in one match, he amassed just enough takedowns to punish ride me for what had to have been about 25 minutes to earn the tech fall with about 20 seconds left in the 3rd.

Micah Copeland and Skylar Holman made me question if I should leave my shoes in the middle of the mat...in a two week period, twice!
 
chasepollard said:
No, you were 100% correct. I’m the one who mixed up terminology. I kept thinking, these guys know wrestling and they keep saying you can lock your hands in a guillotine...they must not have seen the choke-outs in the cages? There’s no way that’s a legal hold!

Then, you come with that one picture and boom, I got thumped in an internet match of correct.

The bad thing is, that was my go-to stall move on top if I accidentally got the legs in where I wasn’t too high AND Skylar Holman rode me for like 8 periods and probably used it 32 times!
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don't worry about being wrong-coaches tell me I am wrong frequently. But, I do spend a lot of time in those books.
 
CowboyUp61 said:
don't worry about being wrong-coaches tell me I am wrong frequently. But, I do spend a lot of time in those books.
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I take it you officiate?...

A few years back Joe Smith wrestled Mark Hall in the Scuffle finals. Hall spent a lot of time with both hands locked around the head & neck during the collar ties. I'd never seen that before. Do you know what the rule is there and why it's legal? Is it because there's no risk of suffocating? Or maybe because they were on their feet rather than the mat?
 
Wrassler17 said:
I take it you officiate?...

A few years back Joe Smith wrestled Mark Hall in the Scuffle finals. Hall spent a lot of time with both hands locked around the head & neck during the collar ties. I'd never seen that before. Do you know what the rule is there and why it's legal? Is it because there's no risk of suffocating? Or maybe because they were on their feet rather than the mat?
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no pressure against the neck, and being on their feet. It is also legal to lock hands around body in neutral, only when on the mat with control does locked hands come into play.

Except for headlock. but a head pry is what you are describing. the pressure has an outlet (straight down) where as a headlock the neck is limited where it can go.
 
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Looks something like a double collar tie. I’m pretty sure you see heavyweights doing this.
 
Mike Mal called it a Muay Thai grip in that video. I looked it up at the time and it's used in clinch fighting, including strikes. I'm not sure how you would even use it in folkstyle other than maybe for a snap down or foot sweep.

I noticed the ref said something a couple of times, maybe a use it or lose it type thing because it's basically stalling.
 
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