Putin put them on the brink. No reason to shield him from recognizable risks and their consequences IMO.
Well, the Ruskies have done it now.....
- Thread starter JimmyBob
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Sorry to take so long to reply. Had to drive home from the office, visit with the wife and sit down to read your link. My goodness Putin is a wordy SOB! That is incredibly long and stretched my attention span to the limit. In fact I eventually quit reading the long historical discourse and scrolled down to the beginning of the USSR and picked it up from there. And to be honest I’m somewhat baffled that you think it strengthens your point. At no point did I see him say he wanted to bring Ukraine under Moscow’s control. And he never insinuated he views attacking Ukraine as a first step in getting the USSR band back together. I’m left wondering if you even read it yourself. The whole article is an historical dissertation of the cultural ties between the two countries, and his dismay at western attempts to drive a cultural and language wedge between them, and his determination not to let the wedge destroy the Russian component in Ukrainian life.
You thoughts on the likelihood of success such an ultimatum directed at the Russian generals would have?
Which is exactly why we shouldn't have pushed the issue with Putin. War is not as precise as the media makes it out to be. Innocent people get killed, missiles and bullets fly off track and you never know what else can happen.
I get it you support most everything Biden and the Democrats do but have you ever stopped to ask why we are so involved in Ukraine. Obama overthrew the Russian friendly government. Why? How do the American people benefit from the overthrow of Ukraine? How do they benefit from Ukraine's acceptance into NATO? How does the rest of the world benefit? Maybe there are good reasons but we haven't heard any of them other than Putin is bad. Is that enough?
That is arguably the most blatantly stupid thing I’ve ever heard you say. If it’s all about peace he would not cheer either side, but would plead for an end to the conflict.
Actually made me laugh out loud! The great liberal statist motto: “Somebody do something!”
I agree with this. That is why, at this point, I think a measured response (with perhaps back-channel communication) is probably the best approach.
I disagree fully though with your claim that we shouldn't have "pushed" Putin though. Putin has no one to blame but himself. And if you can't figure out what our (and our allies) interests are as they relate to Putin and Ukraine, either you aren't paying attention or no one is going to be able to convince you otherwise.
Would this have been your position with Hitler too?
Chamberlain thought like you did, and you saw where it got him and his country. Thank goodness there were men like Churchill that understood peace comes through strength. You don't make peace by giving into the demands of men like Putin. This is what you fundamentally fail to understand.
Would you please tell us which formal document exists between the USA and Ukraine making us allies that require each of us to defend the other’s sovereignty?
This isn't about Biden or his administration. When you finally can't get past that, maybe you will have something of worth to contribute to this conversation.
You all see Biden’s press conference with other world leaders? Looked deer in the headlights and when asked question said “No”. That was it. Cut to commercial. Guess that is best, he probably says something that starts WW3 if he says something. He is not fit to serve, he has to go. This is how he reassures everyone. “No”.
By all means please list how the American people and the world benefit from overthrowing the Ukrainian government and accepting Ukraine into NATO. I would love t be able to see how we benefit but from everything I see there is nothing in it for us except adding hundreds of billions to the national debt and the potential for WWIII.
Ain't a thing you brought to the table that's made any sense. Except rally the......
Let me gets this straight. In your opinion the USA is an uninvolved perfectly innocent player in this fiasco, and is only coming to Ukraine’s defense because Ukraine would not bow to Putin’s demands (what are those demands, by the way?) , and Ukraine has a treaty with the US that requires the US to get involved in order to protect Ukraine’s sovereignty, because Putin made his demands because what he wants is to rule Ukraine, and it’s the first step in his grand design to invade and conquer all the other former USSR countries, thereby cementing his legacy to restore the glory of the old USSR, and to eventually conquer all of western Europe, and finally turn his attention on the USA, so it is incumbent that we stop him before he gets any momentum. Have I got it all, or is there more?
I had a time when I read all the stuff Clancy was writing and that part of my brain says "hell ya one of them would respond to that" - reality though doesn't work like an insurance salesman from Owings, Maryland wishes it might. Long way of saying, I just don't know.
Actually, I need to edit my original answer to your question.
I forgot about the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances for Ukraine. In this document, the United States, Russia, and Britain committed to respect the sovereignty, independence, and terroritory integrity of Ukraine. It was also agreed upon that the use of force, threats, or economic coercion would not be use against Ukraine. Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons on its territory. Putin's Russia has clearly violated the commitments they made.
And Poland is a NATO ally. That was my point.
Perfect? No.
There is no perfection in the world.
This is one of the reasons we and our NATO allies are coming to the defense of Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression. There are others, i.e. strategic partner, European security, neutralizing Putin, etc.
I've never claimed there was a treaty that does exactly what you state but there was the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.
And I firmly believe Putin will do whatever he can (and can get away with) to weaken the NATO alliance, oppose our interests and the interests of our NATO allies, and represents a serious threat to European security and stability. Because of this, he represents a serious threat to us. Having Putin overthrown and/or weakening his ability/power to accomplish his goals is in our national interests and the interests of our allies.
Again, if you can't figure out what our (and our allies) interests are as they relate to Putin and Ukraine, either you aren't paying attention or no one is going to be able to convince you otherwise.
There have been numerous discussions, including this one, on this board where posters have cited the interests that exist for us and our NATO allies. Pay attention and read. Or go study this yourself a little, apart from only considering pro-Putin propaganda.
Putin clearly violated the terms of the Budapest Memorandum, the one you forgot, that says Russia will respect Ukraine’s sovereignty, etc. Where in the Memorandum does it say if Russia violates that respect all the other signers will be required to come to Ukraine’s defense? I’m assuming you know all there is to know about the memorandum you forgot about. And why haven’t the US and Britain sent in the troops?
I say again let an independent uninvolved organization investigate the explosion in Poland. I’m cynical enough to have reservations. I’m not saying they did it, but it is not out of the question that Ukraine would pull such a stunt just before the Republicans, some of whom have begun to question Biden’s humongous economic and military commitment of aid which has no oversight, take over the House and start asking questions and demanding audits.
Edit: Let me add one thing about the missile strike in Poland. To this point at least the reports are very careful to call it a Russian-made missile. They are carefully parsing their words. They are not yet calling it a Russian-launched missile. Maybe it was Russian-launched. And if it was but cannot be explained as an accident this very well could be an escalation that gets tens of thousands of American soldiers killed or maimed in quick order.
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Pootin intended. Such a highly sophisticated republic couldn't have possibly fvck up on this mass of proportion. No way! 👍
I hear you.
The main problem, as I'm sure you know, is that we aren't privy to the intelligence that our President and other world leaders have access to right now. Thus, we often are left with an "I don't know" position. There is, no doubt, so much we don't know (that our leaders do know) that would greatly enhance our ability to game out the potential responses.
This is why yer blind faith in dandelion sounds so ridiculous.
For purpose of brevity why don’t you just tell us what are our interests as they relate to Putin and Ukraine? For some strange reason I don’t think you want to because you don’t know what they are and you know how kooky you’d sound if you tried to tell us. But give it a try anyway! Obama wouldn’t engage because he saw no strategic interest for the USA. Maybe you can educate him, too!
Problem with dimms is they just sit back and wait for the stick to hit em. Steer em in the dimm direction. 🤣
Exactly.
Again, I've never stated such an agreement exists.
But so what? Just because there isn't a formal agreement doesn't mean our interests and the interests of our NATO allies aren't at play. Not to mention, as you admitted, Putin violated the Budapest Memorandum.
Sigh.
So everyone is going to lie about the missile, except Putin (since he is the one we should all immediately trust), because Republicans are barely going to take control of the House in the United States? Poland is considering invoking Article 4 because Polish leaders are concerned about a Republican House in the USA?
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I already have cited our interests in my previous posts on this thread. Are you reading them or are you off in fantasy land thinking all of this has to do with some grand international conspiracy related to the U.S. House election?🤣🤣
I'm all ears and have an open mind. I certainly hope there is some justification for Obama overthrowing the Ukrainian goverment, allowing Putin to take over Crimea and Ukraine joining NATO.
I added a third paragraph, you might want to read it.
But, no, I’m not saying everyone but Putin is lying. I’m saying it’s possible it was not a missile launched by Russia. Before you get your panties in a wad maybe you should let independent inspectors do their job. Sigh.
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