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The Good and Bad

D

DEWrestlingFan

Commitment
Aug 31, 2005
153
201
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There was a bit of both in last nights dual. Just some of my thoughts on it. I still think that this team has a lot of talent and has definitely passed most of our expectations. OK State has some good years ahead of them with this young team, but still a long way from catching Penn State.

125: Spratley was the more active wrestler and had trouble finishing. Definitely was in position to win the match numerous times, but just could not finish. He will make adjustments and will definitely get better from this match.
133: Daton's last match in front of the home crowd! Teske is a lot better wrestler than most give him credit for, but I definitely thought Daton would go out with a bang. Looking forward to see what he does at Nationals and at the Olympic team trials.
141: One of the best freshman at this weight against one of the best Seniors. Experience definitely prevailed, but it definitely was not a blow out.
149: Great to see Jordan win this. Voinovich never really had a chance. Jordan keeps improving!
157: I thought this would be a closer match. However, Teague has definitely surpassed all expectations of 157 this year for OK State.
165: Did not see this coming. Izzak is much better than what he showed, but has not showed his talent against Top Ranked guys since December.
174: 4 years of experience vs a true freshman. Brayden will get better, but definitely got dominated by Kennedy.
184: Plott definitely showed up against one of the best true freshman out there. His experience showed and he made zero mistakes. Best match for OK State on the night.
197: Got dominated. Zero offense. Hopefully he can be at 100% before the Big 12's and Nationals.
HWT: Zero offense for Doucet, which has been pretty consistent. He has lost five of his last six. Hopefully something changes quickly, because from the talk he will be the starter next year also with Merrill taking a RS and Carroll going down to 97.
 
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DEWrestlingFan said:
There was a bit of both in last nights dual. Just some of my thoughts on it. I still think that this team has a lot of talent and has definitely passed most of our expectations. OK State has some good years ahead of them with this young team, but still a long way from catching Penn State.

125: Spratley was the more active wrestler and had trouble finishing. Definitely was in position to win the match numerous times, but just could not finish. He will make adjustments and will definitely get better from this match.
133: Daton's last match in front of the home crowd! Teske is a lot better wrestler than most give him credit for, but I definitely thought Daton would go out with a bang. Looking forward to see what he does at Nationals and at the Olympic team trials.
141: One of the best freshman at this weight against one of the best Seniors. Experience definitely prevailed, but it definitely was not a blow out.
149: Great to see Jordan win this. Voinovich never really had a chance. Jordan keeps improving!
157: I thought this would be a closer match. However, Teague has definitely surpassed all expectations of 157 this year for OK State.
165: Did not see this coming. Izzak is much better than what he showed, but has not showed his talent against Top Ranked guys since December.
174: 4 years of experience vs a true freshman. Brayden will get better, but definitely got dominated by Kennedy.
184: Plott definitely showed up against one of the best true freshman out there. His experience showed and he made zero mistakes. Best match for OK State on the night.
197: Got dominated. Zero offense. Hopefully he can be at 100% before the Big 12's and Nationals.
HWT: Zero offense for Doucet, which has been pretty consistent. He has lost five of his last six. Hopefully something changes quickly, because from the talk he will be the starter next year also with Merrill taking a RS and Carroll going down to 97.
Click to expand...
Surber did not get dominated...He lost 4-1 and the mad scramble at the end of the match was the most entertaining part. He just ended up on the bottom with 10 seconds left...Is what it is but far from getting worked.

Staff may have no choice but to wrestle Merrill because Doucet is just bland and can't win, 197 and HWT always need to be solid, he's not it.
 
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Pokes1988 said:
Surber did not get dominated...He lost 4-1 and the mad scramble at the end of the match was the most entertaining part. He just ended up on the bottom with 10 seconds left...Is what it is but far from getting worked.

Staff may have no choice but to wrestle Merrill because Doucet is just bland and can't win, 197 and HWT always need to be solid, he's not it.
Click to expand...

DEWrestlingFan said:
There was a bit of both in last nights dual. Just some of my thoughts on it. I still think that this team has a lot of talent and has definitely passed most of our expectations. OK State has some good years ahead of them with this young team, but still a long way from catching Penn State.

125: Spratley was the more active wrestler and had trouble finishing. Definitely was in position to win the match numerous times, but just could not finish. He will make adjustments and will definitely get better from this match.
133: Daton's last match in front of the home crowd! Teske is a lot better wrestler than most give him credit for, but I definitely thought Daton would go out with a bang. Looking forward to see what he does at Nationals and at the Olympic team trials.
141: One of the best freshman at this weight against one of the best Seniors. Experience definitely prevailed, but it definitely was not a blow out.
149: Great to see Jordan win this. Voinovich never really had a chance. Jordan keeps improving!
157: I thought this would be a closer match. However, Teague has definitely surpassed all expectations of 157 this year for OK State.
165: Did not see this coming. Izzak is much better than what he showed, but has not showed his talent against Top Ranked guys since December.
174: 4 years of experience vs a true freshman. Brayden will get better, but definitely got dominated by Kennedy.
184: Plott definitely showed up against one of the best true freshman out there. His experience showed and he made zero mistakes. Best match for OK State on the night.
197: Got dominated. Zero offense. Hopefully he can be at 100% before the Big 12's and Nationals.
HWT: Zero offense for Doucet, which has been pretty consistent. He has lost five of his last six. Hopefully something changes quickly, because from the talk he will be the starter next year also with Merrill taking a RS and Carroll going down to 97.
Click to expand...
I watched the match live, then again at home. I agree with your assessment except at 197. Definitely excited for the future of this young team and new addition to the coaching staff in Coleman Scott.

125: Spratley did well against a really good opponent. He moved well, was aggressive, defended very well, was the better mat wrestler. He needs to just mature and put on a little more muscle. The other kid was much larger than him and it showed when Spratley couldn't pull his leg in.

133: Fix was Fix. He was clearly not at his best. Not active enough and gassed in the 3rd period. Maybe he was training through this match a little bit? A National Championship is really what his eye is on.

141: Jamison wrestled great against a stud senior who in my mind is the leading title contender at the weight. Jamison possibly has more pure horsepower than anyone at this weight - reminds me of Dieringer in that respect. I would really like to see his offence on his feet develop more, more variety, more movement. The difference in the match was quickness. Woods is very quick and Jamison is very average in quickness.

149: Williams is just a better athlete - hips, speed, flexibility. Needs to keep working on positional wrestling and fundamental technique.

157: If these two meet again, I don't think Travis will give up his legs so easily. He needs to get a little bigger and stronger for the weight and review the video on this match - he has a hole in his defense that the Iowa wrestler found. Otherwise I love his technique, strategy, mat awareness, grit and conditioning.

165: Dissapointed here. Looked like the Iowa kid was twice as strong here and quicker. Isaac really needs to look at the video here and adjust his technique to compensate for this kid's strength and quickness on his feet. Don't get into a tie where this kid can use the duck or throw by.

174: Thompson looks like a wrestler who is cutting way too much weight and has no energy or legs. He has shown special positional talents at times but that's about it. Something needs figured out at this weight - can't have this next year. Gabe Arnold, Iowa's True Freshman at this weight would mop the floor with him. So don't blame it on being a true freshman - that's not the problem. A recruit of this caliber rarely taking a legitimate shot in a match is ridiculous.

184: Plott looked great! Arnold is really lucky he didn't get taken down two more times. Plott dominated the action, was the agressor, was more physical, had more gas in the tank. Arnold should have been hit for stalling more. The ref hitting Plott for stalling while he was on top was a joke. Arnold played the out of bounds enough to avoid the major.

197: Surber was definitely as good as his opponent and came within a whisker of winning the match. Surber is big, physical, very quick, strong and has great defensive and scrambling techniques. I'd like to see him develop a little more offence from his feet. Still didn't look like he was 100% healthy. I hope he gets there before nationals.

Hwt: Doucet still doesn't have a shot that he's confident enough in taking against All American caliber opponents. That's his primary problem. His mat wrestling is All American quality already. Him getting caught on his back was the difference in this match. There are 4 seniors ranked in the top 8 that clear out at this weight. I would like to give Doucet one last crack at being an All American next year while Merrill red shirts.
 
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I'm just curious, I keep seeing most folks talk about Merrill as the HWT in waiting, does that just mean CC is a bust?
 
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Inky29 said:
I'm just curious, I keep seeing most folks talk about Merrill as the HWT in waiting, does that just mean CC is a bust?
Click to expand...
CC was 250 and is now 227 rumors are he's going down to 197. Cowboy cut job the opposite of the Cowboy bulk job
 
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Still can understand Carroll going 197. I will believe it when I see it. I think its better to have a 227lb strong quick and skilled HWT than a 250 soft, sluggish one. Doucet isn't the answer. I don't care if the weight clears out next year. Giving him one more crack at AA is just setting Carroll back another year if he ends up being a true HWT. Doucet is a average wrestler, yes he has found ways to win and been better than any of us probably thought, but has shown nothing on the mat besides the ability to ride and take matches into overtime.
 
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Pokes1988 said:
Surber did not get dominated...He lost 4-1 and the mad scramble at the end of the match was the most entertaining part. He just ended up on the bottom with 10 seconds left...Is what it is but far from getting worked.

Staff may have no choice but to wrestle Merrill because Doucet is just bland and can't win, 197 and HWT always need to be solid, he's not it.
Click to expand...
I feel like I may have been hard on Surber. Last year's Surber would have blown this kid out. Maybe it is because of limited mat time due to injury. Maybe he just is not 100% yet. Hoping he can get to a 100% if he is not there yet! We know what he is capable of, hopefully he gets back to it.
 
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DEWrestlingFan said:
I feel like I may have been hard on Surber. Last year's Surber would have blown this kid out. Maybe it is because of limited mat time due to injury. Maybe he just is not 100% yet. Hoping he can get to a 100% if he is not there yet! We know what he is capable of, hopefully he gets back to it.
Click to expand...
I don't believe Surber would have "blown out" the 11th ranked kid in the nation last year.
 
Okie_Pat said:
Still can understand Carroll going 197. I will believe it when I see it. I think its better to have a 227lb strong quick and skilled HWT than a 250 soft, sluggish one. Doucet isn't the answer. I don't care if the weight clears out next year. Giving him one more crack at AA is just setting Carroll back another year if he ends up being a true HWT. Doucet is a average wrestler, yes he has found ways to win and been better than any of us probably thought, but has shown nothing on the mat besides the ability to ride and take matches into overtime.
Click to expand...
I understand your reservation with Doucet. I have the same one. I would have preferred CC to lift and prepare to wrestle HW next year but it sounds like he wants to wrestle 197 and Merrill wants to eat a lot and be a HW. So what can you do other than go with Doucet. I do think he has a reasonable chance to low AA next year.
 
Cowboy1989 said:
I understand your reservation with Doucet. I have the same one. I would have preferred CC to lift and prepare to wrestle HW next year but it sounds like he wants to wrestle 197 and Merrill wants to eat a lot and be a HW. So what can you do other than go with Doucet. I do think he has a reasonable chance to low AA next year.
Click to expand...
Who is the weaker of the two between Surber and Doucet? Obvious answer should be Doucet. Why move Carroll down and knock Surber out when he is our best option at 197 and we have a even better option with Carroll at HWY
 
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Okie_Pat said:
Who is the weaker of the two between Surber and Doucet? Obvious answer should be Doucet. Why move Carroll down and knock Surber out when he is our best option at 197 and we have a even better option with Carroll at HWY
Click to expand...
I wonder if Surber would be interested in bulking up and going HW next year?
 
How you go from 250 to 197 is beyond me but if that's what the kid wants to do then more power to him. Seriously please let me know, I'm all ears. Could stand to lose a few lbs myself.
 
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Inky29 said:
How you go from 250 to 197 is beyond me but if that's what the kid wants to do then more power to him. Seriously please let me know, I'm all ears. Could stand to lose a few lbs myself.
Click to expand...
He is certainly short for a HW. If he was really up to 250, I would say his body fat was pretty high. Apparently he is down at around 220 right now? I think 197 would be a good cut for him but nothing that tons of other wrestlers don't do. It sounds like he is a highly ambitious and disciplined young man. I could see him really impressing at 197 next year. Having said that if Surber is 100% healthy and motivated, he will be a tough out.
 
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I like Surber a lot but he hasn't been able to string together a consistent season yet. He's been a top 20 guy for three years which is nothing to sniff at but kind of reminds me of Gfeller: his style either works really well or doesn't work at all and he relies a lot on scrambling out of his opponent's shots. I think we all want to see a monster Surber dominating people with his quickness and pace and maybe it'll come but a new face in Carroll at the weight would also be welcome.
 
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This is only Surber's second season at 197. He got pushed into wrestling HWT in his first season of action. Last year he had a pretty good year. I think without injuries this year he would have been even better this season.

Maybe he drops down to 174 (wrestled around 180 in HS) and BT RS's giving us LS at 74, Plott at 84, CC or JR at 97 and Merrill or KD at HWT next year?
 
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Inky29 said:
This is only Surber's second season at 197. He got pushed into wrestling HWT in his first season of action. Last year he had a pretty good year. I think without injuries this year he would have been even better this season.

Maybe he drops down to 174 (wrestled around 180 in HS) and BT RS's giving us LS at 74, Plott at 84, CC or JR at 97 and Merrill or KD at HWT next year?
Click to expand...
I imagine it's all Surber can do to make 197. I can't see 184.
 
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Cowboy1989 said:
He is certainly short for a HW. If he was really up to 250, I would say his body fat was pretty high. Apparently he is down at around 220 right now? I think 197 would be a good cut for him but nothing that tons of other wrestlers don't do. It sounds like he is a highly ambitious and disciplined young man. I could see him really impressing at 197 next year. Having said that if Surber is 100% healthy and motivated, he will be a tough out.
Click to expand...
Weighed in at 227 for Iowa dual
 
CC was at 217 a couple of weeks ago, but that may have been after practice. He is not real tall, but he will lose muscle to make 197, but there is plenty of muscle left. I think you let a wrestler of his calliber wrestle where he thinks he will win. He was not fat, and has lost what fat he had and some muscle. People do not understand the focus this young man has and what he will do to win. I think he will be a great wrestler at 197 and he will be fine with weight. Merrill was also a top recruit and seems to want to be at heavyweight.
 
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Cowboy1989 said:
I watched the match live, then again at home. I agree with your assessment except at 197. Definitely excited for the future of this young team and new addition to the coaching staff in Coleman Scott.

125: Spratley did well against a really good opponent. He moved well, was aggressive, defended very well, was the better mat wrestler. He needs to just mature and put on a little more muscle. The other kid was much larger than him and it showed when Spratley couldn't pull his leg in.

133: Fix was Fix. He was clearly not at his best. Not active enough and gassed in the 3rd period. Maybe he was training through this match a little bit? A National Championship is really what his eye is on.

141: Jamison wrestled great against a stud senior who in my mind is the leading title contender at the weight. Jamison possibly has more pure horsepower than anyone at this weight - reminds me of Dieringer in that respect. I would really like to see his offence on his feet develop more, more variety, more movement. The difference in the match was quickness. Woods is very quick and Jamison is very average in quickness.

149: Williams is just a better athlete - hips, speed, flexibility. Needs to keep working on positional wrestling and fundamental technique.

157: If these two meet again, I don't think Travis will give up his legs so easily. He needs to get a little bigger and stronger for the weight and review the video on this match - he has a hole in his defense that the Iowa wrestler found. Otherwise I love his technique, strategy, mat awareness, grit and conditioning.

165: Dissapointed here. Looked like the Iowa kid was twice as strong here and quicker. Isaac really needs to look at the video here and adjust his technique to compensate for this kid's strength and quickness on his feet. Don't get into a tie where this kid can use the duck or throw by.

174: Thompson looks like a wrestler who is cutting way too much weight and has no energy or legs. He has shown special positional talents at times but that's about it. Something needs figured out at this weight - can't have this next year. Gabe Arnold, Iowa's True Freshman at this weight would mop the floor with him. So don't blame it on being a true freshman - that's not the problem. A recruit of this caliber rarely taking a legitimate shot in a match is ridiculous.

184: Plott looked great! Arnold is really lucky he didn't get taken down two more times. Plott dominated the action, was the agressor, was more physical, had more gas in the tank. Arnold should have been hit for stalling more. The ref hitting Plott for stalling while he was on top was a joke. Arnold played the out of bounds enough to avoid the major.

197: Surber was definitely as good as his opponent and came within a whisker of winning the match. Surber is big, physical, very quick, strong and has great defensive and scrambling techniques. I'd like to see him develop a little more offence from his feet. Still didn't look like he was 100% healthy. I hope he gets there before nationals.

Hwt: Doucet still doesn't have a shot that he's confident enough in taking against All American caliber opponents. That's his primary problem. His mat wrestling is All American quality already. Him getting caught on his back was the difference in this match. There are 4 seniors ranked in the top 8 that clear out at this weight. I would like to give Doucet one last crack at being an All American next year while Merrill red shirts.
Click to expand...
Nice job
 
All this talk about Merrill or Carroll, why not bulk Surber back up to 225 and wrestle heavy again next year like he did last year? Or at least entertain the idea. Carroll would be ready to roll and Merrill could Redshirt.

He'd be better than Doucet imo, even at 197, he's prolly a better Heavy.
 
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Pokes1988 said:
All this talk about Merrill or Carroll, why not bulk Surber back up to 225 and wrestle heavy again next year like he did last year? Or at least entertain the idea. Carroll would be ready to roll and Merrill could Redshirt.

He'd be better than Doucet imo, even at 197, he's prolly a better Heavy.
Click to expand...
Because Surber is not a HWT and when he "bulked" he was having trouble just keeping his weight around 225-230. I watched a interview with him saying he was downing protein shakes 3-4 times a day trying to keep his weight up and there were days in practice where he felt sick and sluggish just didn't feel his best at the weight. He is a 197 and if 100% healthy next year he has a really good chance to AA with some of the top dawgs clearing out.

Just doesn't make sense to me to cut Carroll down, which would be right now if he's at 227lbs another 30 lb cut and would likely move Surber to the bench when Carroll can go 285. Yeah he's short for the weight blah blah, but the guy moves really well, is quick and strong. 2/3rds of the HWY now days aren't tipping the scale at 285. I don't recall anybody arguing he wasn't a HWT when he got bronze at U20 at 125kg.
 
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Okie_Pat said:
Because Surber is not a HWT and when he "bulked" he was having trouble just keeping his weight around 225-230. I watched a interview with him saying he was downing protein shakes 3-4 times a day trying to keep his weight up and there were days in practice where he felt sick and sluggish just didn't feel his best at the weight. He is a 197 and if 100% healthy next year he has a really good chance to AA with some of the top dawgs clearing out.

Just doesn't make sense to me to cut Carroll down, which would be right now if he's at 227lbs another 30 lb cut and would likely move Surber to the bench when Carroll can go 285. Yeah he's short for the weight blah blah, but the guy moves really well, is quick and strong. 2/3rds of the HWY now days aren't tipping the scale at 285. I don't recall anybody arguing he wasn't a HWT when he got bronze at U20 at 125kg.
Click to expand...
And Merrill is shorter than Carroll from the looks of it.
 
Ok folks, is anyone considering the freestyle is coming and Carroll may simply be looking to compete hard at 97kg?? Im sure hes chompimg at the bit to actually wrestle some matches. He's not going to be a world beater at 125kg imo. Not in the long term, hes to small/short. He may be a medalist but that most likely wont happen at U23s.
 
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Howie_Fartz said:
Ok folks, is anyone considering the freestyle is coming and Carroll may simply be looking to compete hard at 97kg?? Im sure hes chompimg at the bit to actually wrestle some matches. He's not going to be a world beater at 125kg imo. Not in the long term, hes to small/short. He may be a medalist but that most likely wont happen at U23s.
Click to expand...
past medalist*
 
Howie_Fartz said:
Ok folks, is anyone considering the freestyle is coming and Carroll may simply be looking to compete hard at 97kg?? Im sure hes chompimg at the bit to actually wrestle some matches. He's not going to be a world beater at 125kg imo. Not in the long term, hes to small/short. He may be a medalist but that most likely wont happen at U23s.
Click to expand...
It just makes sense for CC to compete at 97kg.

It’s also beneficial to OSU if he wrestles hwt next year so Merrill can RS…if willing.
 
Howie_Fartz said:
Ok folks, is anyone considering the freestyle is coming and Carroll may simply be looking to compete hard at 97kg?? Im sure hes chompimg at the bit to actually wrestle some matches. He's not going to be a world beater at 125kg imo. Not in the long term, hes to small/short. He may be a medalist but that most likely wont happen at U23s.
Click to expand...
That's 213. Amine went up to 197 so he could get bigger for 86kg 189 . Most 97kg guys are 230 exactly why Snyder went up. Cutting down 16 lbs under 97kg isn't gonna make him a better 97kg staying at 230 would. Merrill is the bigger recruit getting more NIL he's the guy who will dictate
 
west2east said:
That's 213. Amine went up to 197 so he could get bigger for 86kg 189 . Most 97kg guys are 230 exactly why Snyder went up. Cutting down 16 lbs under 97kg isn't gonna make him a better 97kg staying at 230 would. Merrill is the bigger recruit getting more NIL he's the guy who will dictate
Click to expand...
That's a weird thing to say.

It will be dictated by the better guy. Which... it's probably Merrill.

Carroll cutting to 197 from 230 sounds like a disaster though. That's a huge cut. Good luck.
 
vhsalum said:
That's a weird thing to say.

It will be dictated by the better guy. Which... it's probably Merrill.

Carroll cutting to 197 from 230 sounds like a disaster though. That's a huge cut. Good luck.
Click to expand...
Merrill told all the schools recruiting him he was a 197 . He's now wanting to go HWT . So they gotta do something. Currently nobody knows who the better guy is at HWT and Carroll is cutting down from 250. So it looks like Merrill is picking his weight
 
vhsalum said:
That's a weird thing to say.

It will be dictated by the better guy. Which... it's probably Merrill.

Carroll cutting to 197 from 230 sounds like a disaster though. That's a huge cut. Good luck.
Click to expand...
Depends on the guy.
 
Harleycowboy said:
These rating would give us 3 All Americans and a poor finish at Nationals. Also, when I hear about Merrill and Carroll with weights, I can't help but think it won't work out good for us based on our recent past. But a guy can always hope. It seemed Merrill at 197 and Carroll at HWT felt better.
Click to expand...
Depending on seeds, it should be better than 3. But it sure doesn’t look like we all want it to.
 
alex1fly said:
As far as I can tell the Merrill/Carroll chatter is all based on one quote from Merrill earlier this month saying that he likes cajun food when he was putting on weight in order to make room in the lineup. Here's the thread: https://oklahomastate.forums.rivals.com/threads/ok-state-vs-mizzou.128774/page-6

Probably need to just chill and let the athletes and coaches figure it out.
Click to expand...
Well one was 250 and is now is 227 and those in the know are saying he's on his way down to 197. Merrill wants to go HWT. That article isn't to reason he's told the coaches he wants to go HWT hence Carroll cutting down
 
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