Synagogue Shooting

[CBradSmith]

I'm fine with admitting that his motivations/actions were not entirely politically driven. I have said so already. I'm not OK with completely eliminating politics from the equation.

Who has said not to consider its influence?
If nobody has said that, then what was said?

Seems like you guys didn't have any issues with discussing politics in this thread...https://oklahomastate.forums.rivals.com/threads/congressman-steve-scalise-shot.62242/

See above answer. And I'm saying the following going all the way through that thread from a year ago, so I don't know if we are on comparing like-to-like.

I admit to going through personal growth in the last 18 months (since then) by listening to/reading a lot of Jordan Peterson and other psychologists/psychiatrists. I better understand that my questioning was surface-level at best in many instances, especially in areas where people are attempting to encapsulate personality traits, personality abnormalities, etc.

This pushing past surface level inspection is important in ALL areas of public scrutiny and thinking in order to reach a better society.

Example: "The right produces a dangerous ideology that produces killers" is inadequate in both the analysis of the individual but also in what is called "the right."

How is anti-semite linked to the right? Im on the right and I'm not anti-semite. I know tons of right leaners and not a single one is anti-semite. So tell me, Been, why is anti-semite linked to the right? Is Louis Farrakhan on the right? Are militant muslims?

Is it accurate, then, to believe the quote above? Or is there a MORE accurate answer? What is the Left and Right? Are there not dozens of smaller ideologies that roll up into each generic side? Since we are forced to vote A or B, then is implying that the "Ideology of the Right is anti-semite (or XYZ)" best described as a form of Prisoners Dilemma with a fringe group rolling up into a political side due to a singular overlap on a stance while the overall side shares no other shared interest with the subgroup? It's then inaccurate to smear that belief across the other subgroups.

Thank you for even expanding in scope the necessary analysis that needs to go into every single detail in reaching assignment of blame.

Since, who are we kidding, that's what this is all about, right? Gotta score those political points. Right @my_2cents

Sarcasm aside, I wish to be transparent in the search for truth, regardless of what form that ultimately takes. I desire for my analysis to be thorough. And in my better moments I dont want to unjustly assign blame where it is not due ..likely due to that assignment stemming from my personal biases.

 

[CBradSmith]

Damn that is hard to read.

Will try to clarify later.

The gist: we all need to look deeper to solve our problems. Those not looking deeper are doing so due to political convenience. I am guilty of it myself, no doubt.

 

[CowboyPhil]

Alt right and alt left need their own "sides". Maybe up or down or something.

I don't consider Nazi's or skinheads or KKK to be on the right side as neither is ANTIFA or Communist the left. Those groups are on their own spectrum or political sphere.

I also think nationalism and patriotism are being interchanged by convenience when trying to prove a point. I think of a nationalist as someone completely against immigration and global trade. I see patriotism as someone that wants legal immigration and trade deals that work in our favor for our country.

Now if either Republicans or Democrats nominate/elect candidates from that other spectrum, then we need to start worrying. And with some of the Democrats proclaiming themselves as "socialist", that's a slippery slope to communism.

If anyone can point out a Republican candidate that is claiming some semblance of that other sphere please list them. And that's not rhetorical, please list them as I haven't seen any yet.

 

[MegaPoke]

His daughter is Jewish, also.

The killer was a white nationalist who espoused alt right dogma and conspiracy theories.. What that means, exactly is open for debate.

White nationalists are not “the right.” Especially as defined nowadays.

 

[Been Jammin]

White nationalists are not “the right.” Especially as defined nowadays.

Are they “the left”.?

What about the alt-right? Are they not “the right”?

 

[MegaPoke]

Are they “the left”.?

What about the alt-right? Are they not “the right”?

They are authoritarians. Much closer to Antifa than to anyone on what inaccurately is described as “the right.” I see liberals - legit never voted republican liberals - being mis-described as “alt right” for merely thinking their party has tilted too far left.

There is no extreme left-right. In reality there is a sphere and groups like this cluster on the dark side of that sphere and the vast majority of us are in the middle of the light side of that sphere being lied to about our differences.

I guarantee you if you and I sat down for lunch we would find we agree on 80-90% of real world issues.

Violent communists and white nationalists are statisictal outliers who represent nothing. They are the monsters in the closet and the truth is that in spite of evil and crazy outliers, things are actually pretty good overall.

 

[CBradSmith]

Are they “the left”.?

What about the alt-right? Are they not “the right”?

Those descriptors are an example of what I was trying to refer to above...Left and Right, alt Left and alt Right are too generic to be meaningful...UNLESS one's goal is to score political points (as opposed to solve a problem).

 

[Been Jammin]

Ok, but when Scalise was shot, the shooter was lumped in with “the left”. When Antifa was at its peak, it was included under the “liberal” umbrella. I routinely see references to “piece of shit” liberals, and that “liberals are trash” on this site.

Now, it is taboo to associate ths guy in any way with “the right”.

Seem like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

It’s hard to dismiss white nationalists as righties when they wear a righty’s uniform...

 

[MegaPoke]

Ok, but when Scalise was shot, the shooter was lumped in with “the left”. When Antifa was at its peak, it was included under the “liberal” umbrella. I routinely see references to “piece of shit” liberals, and that “liberals are trash” on this site.

Now, it is taboo to associate ths guy in any way with “the right”.

Seem like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Antifa absolutely are the ultimate dark side of the sphere final destination for “the left” where it meets the same losers from the right in an authoritarian dead end.

The left is not “liberal.” A liberal is an honorable thing to be and the term has been hijacked. The far left has become a humorless wasteland of identity politics and collectivism that in no way reflects what JFK or even Bill Clinton represented.

I’m a liberal by any 20th Century Definition. But I’m no leftist and refused to move left as the agenda did - which first left me first identifying as a libertarian and now has left me as a reluctant (but satisfied) voter for another 20th Century liberal - Donald Trump.

For my part, I never refer disparagingly to liberals. Go ahead and look for it. Now, progressives? Democratic socialists? buzzwords that should be red flags to a real free speech, pro-Constitution liberal.

As always, as it’s always been and as it always will be... The Constitution. Any arguments that aren’t originalist in their foundation should be met with the very highest criticism possible. That’s my stance and it used to be considered a centrist position. Now it’s “the right.” BS. Break the cycle.

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

Antifa absolutely are the ultimate dark side of the sphere final destination for “the left” where it meets the same losers from the right in an authoritarian dead end.

The left is not “liberal.” A liberal is an honorable thing to be and the term has been hijacked. The far left has become a humorless wasteland of identity politics and collectivism that in no way reflects what JFK or even Bill Clinton represented.

I’m a liberal by any 20th Century Definition. But I’m no leftist and refused to move left as the agenda did - which first left me first identifying as a libertarian and now has left me as a reluctant (but satisfied) voter for another 20th Century liberal - Donald Trump.

For my part, I never refer disparagingly to liberals. Go ahead and look for it. Now, progressives? Democratic socialists? buzzwords that should be red flags to a real free speech, pro-Constitution liberal.

As always, as it’s always been and as it always will be... The Constitution. Any arguments that aren’t originalist in their foundation should be met with the very highest criticism possible. That’s my stance and it used to be considered a centrist position. Now it’s “the right.” BS. Break the cycle.

What is your take on Trump the “liberal”’s pro-LGBT campaign promises and actual administrative action?

 

[Syskatine]

Which Trump is the real Trump? The purported Jew hater from a clumsily and carelessly constructed leftist hit piece or the Trump that fully supports Jewish Israel and who finally moved the US embassy to the true capital of Israel, Jerusalem?

I would challenge you to be less concerned about what anyone thinks of these lunatics’ ideologies - which are inevitable rambling fever dream streams of unhinged gibberish that in no way reflects any mainstream political ideology.

I guess I’m not surprised that a crazy person would latch onto a crazy “ideology” like anti semitism, but that’s not exactly a mainstream political platform. To me it just proves that mental illness is 99% of the discussion in these cases and media coverage probably makes up the bulk of the other 1%. Crazy people doing what the voices tell them to do and evil people will do it to be famous for 15 minutes.

Ya'll are missing a huge, screaming fact: Lots of wacko's are doing this shit are soaked up in MAGA and frequently espouse MAGA talking points. I've never heard this Soros shit before relatively recent conservative narratives. Soros everything. It's a ridiculous obsession with the guy, and it's fed from every conservative angle - INCLUDING BIFF.

Let's not act like antisemitism is some kind of fringe movement only believed in by a tiny number of kooks who all need to be on lithium and receiving electroshock therapy. That would be disingenuous.

There were at least 1,986 such incidents motivated by anti-Jewish bias – including physical assaults, vandalism and attacks on Jewish institutions – in 2017, a 57 percent spike in incidents over the year before, according to the Anti-Defamation League, a group that tracks and fights anti-Semitism.

The ADL also published a report this month that found an alarming increase in the amount of anti-Semitic content on social media in the lead-up to next month’s midterm elections.

-USA Today

I'm gonna say something that isn't frequent -- sticking up for the Okie conservatives. I don't think there's much anti-semitism in Oklahoma. In fact, I'd put it really low for anywhere. Two reasons: 1. Most of us didn't (before the internet) have access to anti-semitism. It just wasn't a thing growing up -- it was a cartoon villainy associated with our enemy (i.e. nazi's). 2) If anything, generations of Sunday school attendees heard messaging that the jews were the good guys in the bible. All the "they're God's chosen people" stuff was really taught for a long time, and lots of evangelicals.

Look at this:

 

[Been Jammin]

The far left has become a humorless wasteland of identity politics and collectivism that in no way reflects what JFK or even Bill Clinton represented.

And what has the far right become? Are they fun to hang out with? Devoid of identity politics and collectivism?

 

[MegaPoke]

And what has the far right become? Are they fun to hang out with? Devoid of identity politics and collectivism?

They suck. Why would I defend the actual far right?

 

[Been Jammin]

I'm gonna say something that isn't frequent -- sticking up for the Okie conservatives. I don't think there's much anti-semitism in Oklahoma. In fact, I'd put it really low for anywhere.

I would agree with you. However, there is also a contributing reason. If you will look at your map, you will find that the antisemitic incidents focus on the parts of the country with the highest Jewish population. East coast cities, LA, SF, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston. It is a lot easier to find Jewish people in those places. Additionally, a bigot needs exposure to those he hates in order to see them as a threat.

The Jewish population is low in Oklahoma, so that plays a part in what you are pointing out. I do agree that the OKC and Tulsa Jewish populations would say that localized antisemitism is extremely low/non existent.

Tidbit. My great grandfather was the first licensed lawyer in Oklahoma City. He, and a small group of friends (many of them Jewish), were instrumental in moving the Capital of Oklahoma from Guthrie to OKC in 1910.

 

[Been Jammin]

They suck. Why would I defend the actual far right?

I wouldn't expect you to. Just making sure we are on the same page.

 

[MegaPoke]

I wouldn't expect you to. Just making sure we are on the same page.

Probably way more so than you even think we are.

I went to New York last week on a business trip and took one afternoon to visit the Statue of Liberty and the 911 memorial / Feeedom Tower.

It was all so powerful and emotional. My wife and i were treated wonderfully in that gorgeous city. Into the belly of the “progressive beast” we went and what did we find? Americans. Just like us.

I know, cool story bro. But the point is we are being trolled into believing we are on the brink of civil war between nazis and communists. I saw exactly as many antifa in NY as I see white nationalists in Tulsa. Zero. These idiots are the fringe of the fringe and in no way represent mainstream America either way.

I would really love waking up one day to see Donald Trump and Chuck Schumer holding a joint press conference just to clearly take a giant shit on all of these fools and then get right back to fighting each other about walls, taxes and health care - but rid of all the ridiculous morons.

 

[CowboyPhil]

I wish our politicians put America first instead of party. But it seems to be more about gaining control of more power for their party than doing their actual jobs and fixing things.

 

[Been Jammin]

I wish our politicians put America first instead of party. But it seems to be more about gaining control of more power for their party than doing their actual jobs and fixing things.

Yup. It is a big problem.

 

[MegaPoke]

I wish our politicians put America first instead of party. But it seems to be more about gaining control of more power for their party than doing their actual jobs and fixing things.

That and the corporate media - including FOX have reached critical mass and are openly mirroring the internet echo chambers - not even out of legit ideology but for ratings in the service of their corporate brands. The 24 hour news cycle is probably the worst thing that’s ever happened to American culture.

 

[Medic007]

The 24 hour news cycle is probably the worst thing that’s ever happened to American culture.

The 24 hour news cycle and social media allow otherwise unknown crazy folks to have their brand plastered in front of millions of people in minutes followed by days/weeks of intimate dissection. Nobody cares about getting it right anymore. It's all about getting it first.

 

[imprimis]

The 24 hour news cycle and social media allow otherwise unknown crazy folks to have their brand plastered in front of millions of people in minutes followed by days/weeks of intimate dissection. Nobody cares about getting it right anymore. It's all about getting it first.

Brian Ross, formerly of ABC News and Colorado theater shooting fame, says hi.

 

[Been Jammin]

The 24 hour news cycle and social media allow otherwise unknown crazy folks to have their brand plastered in front of millions of people in minutes followed by days/weeks of intimate dissection. Nobody cares about getting it right anymore. It's all about getting it first.

Along those lines. Here is a WaPo opinion piece that discusses a lot of things talked about ITT. I know many of you won't take the time to read it, but maybe some will.

Here is a quote from it.

This nonstop drumbeat of over-the-top invective and irrational conspiracy theories can drive otherwise sane conservatives to extremism — and it can drive those who were already unstable to violence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...2607289efee_story.html?utm_term=.2c8b83ce4783

 

[MegaPoke]

Along those lines. Here is a WaPo opinion piece that discusses a lot of things talked about ITT. I know many of you won't take the time to read it, but maybe some will.

Here is a quote from it.

This nonstop drumbeat of over-the-top invective and irrational conspiracy theories can drive otherwise sane conservatives to extremism — and it can drive those who were already unstable to violence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...2607289efee_story.html?utm_term=.2c8b83ce4783

I don’t have time to read it right now but if it doesn’t also address the conspiracies that Trump is a nazi fascist, it’s part of the echo chamber problem.

 

[imprimis]

This nonstop drumbeat of over-the-top invective and irrational conspiracy theories can drive otherwise sane conservatives to extremism — and it can drive those who were already unstable to violence.

Change conservatives to liberals and it means the same.

 

[Been Jammin]

Change conservatives to liberals and it means the same.

Would you say that violence by "liberals" over the last 2 years is equivalent to violence by "conservatives" over the last 2 years?

Would you say that over the top invective and irrational conspiracy theories are equivalent on both sides?

 

[MegaPoke]

Would you say that violence by "liberals" over the last 2 years is equivalent to violence by "conservatives" over the last 2 years?

Would you say that over the top invective and irrational conspiracy theories are equivalent on both sides?

Equivalency isn’t relevant. Also man, again, I would put real world intstigative “liberal and conservative” violence at roughly zero.

I personally don’t care about the fringes - who should be recognized as the dead end losers they all are. Other than cartoon character stereotypes for pundits to use as dehumanizing NPCesque dismissals of the other “team,” they serve no purpose or statistical existence.

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

I don’t have time to read it right now but if it doesn’t also address the conspiracies that Trump is a nazi fascist, it’s part of the echo chamber problem.

A rise in white nationalism and hate crimes have occurred since 2015 when Trump announced his candidacy and started the “build the wall” rhetoric.

Coincidence?

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

Equivalency isn’t relevant. Also man, again, I would put real world intstigative “liberal and conservative” violence at roughly zero.

I personally don’t care about the fringes - who should be recognized as the dead end losers they all are. Other than cartoon character stereotypes for pundits to use as dehumanizing NPCesque dismissals of the other “team,” they serve no purpose or statistical existence.

You’ve literally gone back and forth in this thread dismissing and acknowledging and dismissing and acknowledging the existence of the fringes. You said earlier there is no extreme right or left.

What do you actually believe?

 

[MegaPoke]

A rise in white nationalism and hate crimes have occurred since 2015 when Trump announced his candidacy and started the “build the wall” rhetoric.

Coincidence?

Clinton,

I’m going to reply to you once. If I do it again, it’ll depend 100% on you. I have no interest in involving my brand in political shitposting anymore. I did that, had fun with it for awhile and saw it spill into my personal life. Zero tolerance for that now.

That said, yes. It’s a coincidence. The fact that white nationalists hoped they had something in common with Trump and (pay attention....) found their racist agenda and Teump’s border Security agenda had superficial overlapping similarities is irrelevant.

The guy that shot up the synagogue hated Trump. Obviously felt he was part of the problem. If they thought Trump might in some way be a solution to their racist angst, I doubt that hopefulness lasted very long.

Charles Manson was a Beatles fan. Helter Skelter is forever tied to his murders. That doesn’t link the Beatles back to Charles Manson’s actions in any way. Same thing.

There is no credible evidence of Trump being a racist. None. If you think there is, you are hearing what you want to hear, in my opinion.

 

[Ostatedchi]

When I was on the local city council there were some crazy fringe folks who thought I could be of some use to them since some of the reforms I wanted they agreed with. That didn't spill over to their other crazy wants.

Their support of me in no way equated to me supporting them.

It isn't that difficult of a concept to anyone not trying to get a talking point for their side. It isn't a two way street and we aren't all monolithic thinkers. Just because I agree with something a person does doesn't mean that I then by extension agree with something else they do. That level of thinking is for NPCs.

 

[MegaPoke]

You’ve literally gone back and forth in this thread dismissing and acknowledging and dismissing and acknowledging the existence of the fringes. You said earlier there is no extreme right or left.

What do you actually believe?

I can both acknowledge their existence and dismiss their statistical relevance. I don’t think @Been Jammin thinks I’ve been inconsistent in that regard but if I was unclear, let me say this.

The left and right extremes are small over-covered fringe lunatics who are ironically similar to each other in their authoritarian aims. They personally don’t serve any use beyond being boogeymen caricatures for their opposite sides.

 

[MegaPoke]

When I was on the local city council there were some crazy fringe folks who thought I could be of some use to them since some of the reforms I wanted they agreed with. That didn't spill over to their other crazy wants.

Their support of me in no way equated to me supporting them.

It isn't that difficult of a concept to anyone not trying to get a talking point for their side. It isn't a two way street and we aren't all monolithic thinkers. Just because I agree with something a person does doesn't mean that I then by extension agree with something else they do. That level of thinking is for NPCs.

Exactly. You could find someone as opposite of your ideals ethics politics and personality as you can possibly imagine and it’s highly unlikely you couldn’t find some anecdotal policy positions you accidentally agree on.

That in no way makes either of you linked to each other in any other way.

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

When I was on the local city council there were some crazy fringe folks who thought I could be of some use to them since some of the reforms I wanted they agreed with. That didn't spill over to their other crazy wants.

Their support of me in no way equated to me supporting them.

It isn't that difficult of a concept to anyone not trying to get a talking point for their side. It isn't a two way street and we aren't all monolithic thinkers. Just because I agree with something a person does doesn't mean that I then by extension agree with something else they do. That level of thinking is for NPCs.

Name one reform you proposed as a local city councilman that, in any way, compares to the divisive nature of “build a wall”.

Waiting patiently...

 

[Ostatedchi]

Name one reform you proposed as a local city councilman that, in any way, compares to the divisive nature of “build a wall”.

Waiting patiently...

Not even going to answer your BS question with a real answer as you aren't interested in a real conversation.

Just to add...

"Engaging in a conversation with mentally ill people is a fruitless venture." -- AC (September 9, 2018)

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

Clinton,

I’m going to reply to you once. If I do it again, it’ll depend 100% on you. I have no interest in involving my brand in political shitposting anymore. I did that, had fun with it for awhile and saw it spill into my personal life. Zero tolerance for that now.

That said, yes. It’s a coincidence. The fact that white nationalists hoped they had something in common with Trump and (pay attention....) found their racist agenda and Teump’s border Security agenda had superficial overlapping similarities is irrelevant.

The guy that shot up the synagogue hated Trump. Obviously felt he was part of the problem. If they thought Trump might in some way be a solution to their racist angst, I doubt that hopefulness lasted very long.

Charles Manson was a Beatles fan. Helter Skelter is forever tied to his murders. That doesn’t link the Beatles back to Charles Manson’s actions in any way. Same thing.

There is no credible evidence of Trump being a racist. None. If you think there is, you are hearing what you want to hear, in my opinion.

Was it a coincidence that trump and his father were busted by the Justice Department for racial housing discrimination, 2 years after trump left Wharton?

 

[CSCOTTOSUPOKES]

Not even going to answer your BS question with a real answer as you aren't interested in a real conversation.

Just to add...

"Engaging in a conversation with mentally ill people is a fruitless venture." -- AC (September 9, 2018)

I’ll take your triggered response as an admission of defeat.

 

[Ostatedchi]

I’ll take your triggered response as an admission of defeat.

Take it however you want - NPC.

"Engaging in a conversation with mentally ill people is a fruitless venture." -- AC (September 9, 2018)

 

[Been Jammin]

That said, yes. It’s a coincidence. The fact that white nationalists hoped they had something in common with Trump and (pay attention....) found their racist agenda and Teump’s border Security agenda had superficial overlapping similarities is irrelevant.

The guy that shot up the synagogue hated Trump. Obviously felt he was part of the problem. If they thought Trump might in some way be a solution to their racist angst, I doubt that hopefulness lasted very long.

Mega,

I think this line of thinking is a stretch. He may have professed his hate for Trump. He may not have voted for Trump. But, based on this info (from my earlier post)

4). His social media footprint included a significant number of antisemitic slurs and references to antisemitic conspiracy theories.

5). In January, an account under his name was created on Gab, a social network that bills itself as a free speech haven. The app, which grew out of claims of anti-conservative bias by Facebook and Twitter, is a popular gathering place for alt-right activists and white nationalists whose views are unwelcome on other social media platforms.

6). Several weeks ago, Mr. Bowers’s account posted a link to the website of HIAS, a Jewish nonprofit organization, which was planning a shabbat ceremony for refugees in locations around the country. The caption read: “Why hello there HIAS! You like to bring in hostile invaders to dwell among us?”

And hours before the gunman entered the Tree of Life synagogue, the account posted again: “HIAS likes to bring invaders in that kill our people. I can’t sit by and watch my people get slaughtered. Screw your optics, I’m going in.”

the recent anti-caravan rhetoric played a significant part in his decision to kill those innocents. He made his thinking and motive very clear for everyone to see.

Trump used the caravan to his advantage and used fear mongering to stir up his supporters. You would probably agree with me that by the time it gets to our border (if it makes it), it is going to be pretty anti-climactic, and nothing like the situation that was being portrayed by Trump and many others. On 10/22, HIAS released a statement in support of members of the caravan having the right to seek asylum.

It is not as easy as saying "the guy said he hated Trump". The Right was pushing the caravan=boogey man narrative from various different sources.

 

[MegaPoke]

Was it a coincidence that trump and his father were busted by the Justice Department for racial housing discrimination, 2 years after trump left Wharton?

I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe not. That was in the 70’s in a very dirty hands business. Might’ve been what you think it is. But there’s also significant contradictory anecdotal evidence since then that he’s not racist.

Regardless, extrapolating that into him governing as a racist is a reach.