GOT tonight.
- Thread starter MegaPoke
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After several years of resisting, the Mrs. finally agreed to begin watching GOT. 5 episodes into the first season and she doesn't hate it, but she still doesn't like it yet either. Fingers crossed for a change of heart.
A couple of things stood out to me from that episode. (stop reading if you haven't read all 5 books, but plan to).
1). Sansa and Littlefinger left Lord Robert with Lord Royce and went somewhere else. That hasn't happened yet in the books, and seems unlikely to happen, IMO. By the end of Book 5, Littlefinger appears to be all about getting control of the Vale and using Robert as his puppet to keep the Vale Lords in check. I'm not sure if their journey is a book spoiler or if it is HBO doing their own thing with Sansa and Littlefinger. I suspect it is the latter.
2). It sure looks to me like HBO killed off Mance Rayder (as opposed to Melisandre using her powers to substitute the Lord of Bones). I was watching for any hint that he was not actually Mance, and there was not anything suggesting that to be the case. I think that kind of sucks because the story of Able and his Washerwomen and The Ghost of Winterfell was one of my favorite parts of DWD. But, I can understand why they did it. The whole thing with Mance/Abel was masterfully done in the books, but would have been very confusing to the viewer.
1). Sansa and Littlefinger left Lord Robert with Lord Royce and went somewhere else. That hasn't happened yet in the books, and seems unlikely to happen, IMO. By the end of Book 5, Littlefinger appears to be all about getting control of the Vale and using Robert as his puppet to keep the Vale Lords in check. I'm not sure if their journey is a book spoiler or if it is HBO doing their own thing with Sansa and Littlefinger. I suspect it is the latter.
2). It sure looks to me like HBO killed off Mance Rayder (as opposed to Melisandre using her powers to substitute the Lord of Bones). I was watching for any hint that he was not actually Mance, and there was not anything suggesting that to be the case. I think that kind of sucks because the story of Able and his Washerwomen and The Ghost of Winterfell was one of my favorite parts of DWD. But, I can understand why they did it. The whole thing with Mance/Abel was masterfully done in the books, but would have been very confusing to the viewer.
I have to disagree with point 2. If you noticed Mance looked at Rattleshirt several times while the burning happened. I also thought that in the books Melisandre had used a trick or spell to make Mance look like Rattleshirt and in fact they didn't burn Mance but Rattleshirt.
Did that make sense?
You are correct about what happened in the book. However, in the book, there were hints about what had happened. First, Rattleshirt challenged Jon to a fight in the yard. Jon noted that he fought like someone much bigger and stronger than he appeared to be (Mance was much more physically imposing than rattleshirt). Secondly, when he was burning, Rattleshirt started babbling about not being the king in the north and about people not seeing what they thought they were seeing...which was when Jon shot him with the arrow. At the time, we thought Jon was showing mercy, but Jon knew about the illusion, and was likely shutting Rattleshirt up before he revealed the truth.
There was nothing to suggest any kind of subterfuge in last night's episode. And I am pretty sure that the guy Mance kept looking at was Tormund, not Rattleshirt.
The reason I think HBO went in this direction is because it would have been obvious (and confusing) to the viewer, when Mance showed up in Winterfell. In the books, he was far away from Melisandre and looked just like Mance. However, no one at Winterfell recognized him because they had never seen Mance before. However, the viewer would recognize him immediately. Assuming that HBO even introduces the imposter Arya, I suspect that Theon will just rescue her on his own.
I wonder if they decided to cut the Mance stuff pretty late. Seems like a waste of a pretty good actor. He didn't have much to do as Mance.
The Sansa / Littlefinger story line is way out in front of the books. They are basically at the end of book five now. One of the theories out there is the Littlefinger is taking her to Winterfell where she will basically assume the fake Arya storyline. I'm assuming that would be Littlefinger's ultimate betrayal. Seems very far fetched to me but if you look at one of the teaser's she appears to be in the Witerfell crept.
See link:
http://uproxx.com/tv/2015/03/the-new-game-of-thrones-trailers-seem-to-confirm-a-killer-fan-theory/
New Theory
I can see Littlefinger taking Sansa somewhere to avenge her family. After all, he was in love with her mother, and would want revenge against the Freys. I have a very difficult time seeing him giving Sansa to Ramsay Bolton, however. No way would he put Sansa in a position where she would be in the power of the Boltons. Whatever the two of them are up to, it seems like their storyline is a departure from the path that GRRM has planned for Sansa/Littlefinger. I'm sure he won't keep them in the Vale for the rest of the story, but it seems like they will remain in the Vale for a good portion of TWOW.
He and sansa stayed in the Vale for a while to show Littlefinger playing politics with the other lords of the vale and to show Sansa growing up and learning the politics herself. It only takes a few minutes on screen to show that Sansa is getting hardened and wiser. I think the producers were smart enough to know that all the less Robin on screen the better, and that's about all we see in the book is Sansa and Robin. I dont know if this is a departure from the book, or a jump forward. They may be about to make this trip in the books as well.
Wherever it is, it is to gain Littlefinger power.
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Wherever it is, it is to gain Littlefinger power.
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Agreed. That is what he is all about. I guess I can see him using Sansa to gain Bolton as an ally, but only if he was sure that he had the upper hand and that Sansa would not come to any harm.
I guess it is possible that it turns out he isn't really in love with Sansa and that he just sees her as a pawn to get control of the North, giving him both the Vale and the North. But, that would be a surprising turn of events, IMO.
I have this feeling that Littlefinger is a brutal human with hopes to have a castle that is respected so he can marry someone of very high importance with a possibility to gain the throne or all the political power. I think after Catelyn Stark died so did any love in his heart. I think everything we see him do after that point is for revenge on those who killed her and to gain all the power in the kingdom and as we know you don't have to be king to gain that control. I honestly don't think he really loves Sansa just likes the memory she provides of Catelyn with the closeness of their looks. I think when it is all said and done we will find out he was one of the most evil people in the series.
100% agree. I don't think he loves Sansa either, has the hots for her maybe, but not love. I don't know if he is capable of love period, even with Cat I think it was more of an infatuation than real love.
I hope they dont substitute Sansa for Jenny Poole (or whatever her name is). I think that will turn off abunch of viewers as just being an over the top amount of horribleness happening to one character.
However, I can see it happening, as having a fake Arya being sent to Winterfell may be a bit confusing and would take a fair amount of time to set up back in Kings landing, where there are more imprtant things to show.
It would depend on how they handled it. If they substituted Sansa, but took out most of the abuse Jeyne got from Ramsay, then had Sansa be the ghost of Winterfell (finding clever ways to kill Freys), it would work really well. Then, things could start to go south for her, and Ramsay could start to become brutal...leading to Theon rescuing her.
I think this is the official point where I really stop trying to connect the show and books. I really have a hard time finding a reason LF would hand over Sansa. Sansa is so valuable that I cannot imagine LF would part with for anything.
But, what if he used her to try to consolidate more power for himself, then his plan went awry and she ended up in a bad situation? I think that storyline could be within line of his character. Ultimately, it comes down to 1 big question (already debated in this thread).
Is Sansa more valuable to him due to her resemblance/connection to the love of his life, or, is Sansa more valuable to him as a tool to be used to gain more power for himself?
I think both GRRM and HBO have given us enough evidence of both possibilities, that we would buy it regardless of which path Sansa and LF end up taking.
Yeah, we are speculating on a plot point in the show that we have no idea how comes about so who knows? I do think LF probably does have genuine affection for Sansa AND sees her as a valuable tool. It doesn't really have to be either or (although I agree that LF will do whatever it takes with Sansa to achieve his ultimate goal affection or not).
Another thought in my brain about Sansa Stark. I was thinking about this a little and I have come to the conclusion that Tyrion and Sansa will in the end be husband and wife and she will love him and him her. I think their wedding meant more then just what has played out. I think Tyrion will help Dani gain the throne in Westeros then she will reward him with a Lordship of Winterfell and Warden of the North.
I don't see Sansa marry Ramsey but I do believe the Littlefinger is going to be a major player both in book six and this season. My guess is at some point he betrays Sansa. We have already see him lie about losing the knife to Tyrion to set him up for the attack on Bran, betray Ned Stark and kill Lady Arryn. We know he killed Jon Arryn and played some part in the plot to kill Joffrey. He also furnished Joffrey with various disposable hookers for his unique desires. In other words there not much he won't do or anyone he won't betray. He is also always much more involved and powerful then it appears on the surface.
I think he is more obsessed with Sansa then in love with her much like he was with her mother. If she denies him what he wants he might be capable of doing anything to her.
I don't think the show is necessarily departing heavily form the books in the plot I think this is just one of the first time we have seen the show out in front of the books.
I think he is more obsessed with Sansa then in love with her much like he was with her mother. If she denies him what he wants he might be capable of doing anything to her.
I don't think the show is necessarily departing heavily form the books in the plot I think this is just one of the first time we have seen the show out in front of the books.
Who knows for certain yet?
It has been my impression he is infatuated with her and believes he lives her.
I also think he would be capable of reading her for power.
However, I seriously doubt the kind of power he would trade her for is within the grasp of the Boltons.
She is presumed to be the heir of Ned Stark at this point. Even in a world where women don't inherit her name and bloodline matter. Marrying her to the right lord secures the North for whichever King can pull it off.
Cersi still blames Sansa for Joff's death, which makes her doubly valuable to the Lannisters.
She is Tyrion's bride, and Littlefinnger will learn soon enough that one of the few men he believes clever enough to cause him problems is loose.
He's not turning Sansa over to the Boltons... There's not enough in it for him.
It has been my impression he is infatuated with her and believes he lives her.
I also think he would be capable of reading her for power.
However, I seriously doubt the kind of power he would trade her for is within the grasp of the Boltons.
She is presumed to be the heir of Ned Stark at this point. Even in a world where women don't inherit her name and bloodline matter. Marrying her to the right lord secures the North for whichever King can pull it off.
Cersi still blames Sansa for Joff's death, which makes her doubly valuable to the Lannisters.
She is Tyrion's bride, and Littlefinnger will learn soon enough that one of the few men he believes clever enough to cause him problems is loose.
He's not turning Sansa over to the Boltons... There's not enough in it for him.
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