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Why extreme vetting isn't enough.

MegaPoke

MegaPoke

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So the Berlin truck hijacker was shot in Italy after crossing 1000 miles of borderless Western Europe via Islamic ghettos en route to a terrorist enclave in Milan.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...killed-trying-reach-accomplices-a7493321.html

This to me illustrates a huge part of the Islamist problem. It's not necessarily that terrorist are slipping through unvetted. A larger problem is multiculturalism and the fact that these autonomous communities spring up requiring no assimilation into the host country's culture. These places become breeding grounds for the rats - radicalizing young men and providing safe havens for them to disappear into after committing acts of terror.

I'm not sure what the answer is but improperly filtered massive flows of refugees provides cover for some bad guys and these no go zones provide incubators to recruit and brainwash people who are not required to assimilate. It's got to stop.
 
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I have a theory re: Europe vs. U.S. There's no upward mobility over there. Immigrants can't get anywhere financially.
MegaPoke said:
So the Berlin truck hijacker was shot in Italy after crossing 1000 miles of borderless Western Europe via Islamic ghettos en route to a terrorist enclave in Milan.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...killed-trying-reach-accomplices-a7493321.html

This to me illustrates a huge part of the Islamist problem. It's not necessarily that terrorist are slipping through unvetted. A larger problem is multiculturalism and the fact that these autonomous communities spring up requiring no assimilation into the host country's culture. These places become breeding grounds for the rats - radicalizing young men and providing safe havens for them to disappear into after committing acts of terror.

I'm not sure what the answer is but improperly filtered massive flows of refugees provides cover for some bad guys and these no go zones provide incubators to recruit and brainwash people who are not required to assimilate. It's got to stop.
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Until the migrants/refugees/immigrants have some upward mobility and ability to make some money and have a good life they won't assimilate. Arguably, they can't assimilate. I'm gonna be called marxist, but you can't expect people to just be poor as hell without hope of improving their lot in life. Biggest advantage this country has over Europe with this muslim issue is upward mobility and giving immigrants some reason to embrace the country.

I've always wondered what happens if you take the stereotype of a teenage, muslim, broke, unskilled immigrant in Europe and while on his way to a meeting of radical losers, he was offered a job to make some good $. What would he do? And if he accepted the job and made some $, and was offered more work and responsibility for $ tomorrow, what would he do? All things being equal, I think people in general opt for making money and upward mobility over random destruction. You take away the $ and mobility and you get those idle hands and anger.

Nothing puts most of us in a good mood like making some $. Are they so different? I've gotten to know a couple of smart muslims relatively well here, and they're both good businessmen and have a lot going on and would never dream of doing something that would lose it all.
 
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syskatine said:
I have a theory re: Europe vs. U.S. There's no upward mobility over there. Immigrants can't get anywhere financially.


Until the migrants/refugees/immigrants have some upward mobility and ability to make some money and have a good life they won't assimilate. Arguably, they can't assimilate. I'm gonna be called marxist, but you can't expect people to just be poor as hell without hope of improving their lot in life. Biggest advantage this country has over Europe with this muslim issue is upward mobility and giving immigrants some reason to embrace the country.

I've always wondered what happens if you take the stereotype of a teenage, muslim, broke, unskilled immigrant in Europe and while on his way to a meeting of radical losers, he was offered a job to make some good $. What would he do? And if he accepted the job and made some $, and was offered more work and responsibility for $ tomorrow, what would he do? All things being equal, I think people in general opt for making money and upward mobility over random destruction. You take away the $ and mobility and you get those idle hands and anger.

Nothing puts most of us in a good mood like making some $. Are they so different? I've gotten to know a couple of smart muslims relatively well here, and they're both good businessmen and have a lot going on and would never dream of doing something that would lose it all.
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Yeah, economice participation is a great motivator.

Again however, when you bring in too many people too fast, and dump them in autonomous religiously governed enclaves, what are you doing to develop their employability? Are they learning the host language? Customs? Laws? Culture? Are they developing desirable skill sets for employers?

Negative.
 
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syskatine said:
I have a theory re: Europe vs. U.S. There's no upward mobility over there. Immigrants can't get anywhere financially.


Until the migrants/refugees/immigrants have some upward mobility and ability to make some money and have a good life they won't assimilate. Arguably, they can't assimilate. I'm gonna be called marxist, but you can't expect people to just be poor as hell without hope of improving their lot in life. Biggest advantage this country has over Europe with this muslim issue is upward mobility and giving immigrants some reason to embrace the country.

I've always wondered what happens if you take the stereotype of a teenage, muslim, broke, unskilled immigrant in Europe and while on his way to a meeting of radical losers, he was offered a job to make some good $. What would he do? And if he accepted the job and made some $, and was offered more work and responsibility for $ tomorrow, what would he do? All things being equal, I think people in general opt for making money and upward mobility over random destruction. You take away the $ and mobility and you get those idle hands and anger.

Nothing puts most of us in a good mood like making some $. Are they so different? I've gotten to know a couple of smart muslims relatively well here, and they're both good businessmen and have a lot going on and would never dream of doing something that would lose it all.
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Sys, if the Muslims we are allowing into Western countries have the potential for such heinous and violent acts because they are not climbing the ladder fast enough then we should not let them enter in the first place.
 
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syskatine said:
I have a theory re: Europe vs. U.S. There's no upward mobility over there. Immigrants can't get anywhere financially.


Until the migrants/refugees/immigrants have some upward mobility and ability to make some money and have a good life they won't assimilate. Arguably, they can't assimilate. I'm gonna be called marxist, but you can't expect people to just be poor as hell without hope of improving their lot in life. Biggest advantage this country has over Europe with this muslim issue is upward mobility and giving immigrants some reason to embrace the country.

I've always wondered what happens if you take the stereotype of a teenage, muslim, broke, unskilled immigrant in Europe and while on his way to a meeting of radical losers, he was offered a job to make some good $. What would he do? And if he accepted the job and made some $, and was offered more work and responsibility for $ tomorrow, what would he do? All things being equal, I think people in general opt for making money and upward mobility over random destruction. You take away the $ and mobility and you get those idle hands and anger.

Nothing puts most of us in a good mood like making some $. Are they so different? I've gotten to know a couple of smart muslims relatively well here, and they're both good businessmen and have a lot going on and would never dream of doing something that would lose it all.
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I can't disagree, syskatine. The question is what are the barriers to employment? High illiteracy rates have been cited as an issue. Lack of jobs has been cited as an issue. A lack of willingness to assimilate into the host country culture has been cited as an issue. A lack of employable skills has been cited as an issue. Those things in combination make for a very difficult situation.

The problem for Europe is that a refugee crisis of this magnitude hasn't been experienced in modern times. This isn't immigration. It's literally migration. Europe opened the borders and millions of people poured into countries with no plan and very limited resources.

The USA is in a much better spot than any of the European countries because of our oceanic surroundings. We have the luxury of being much more selective. But the real issue of importing violent jihadists still remains. As we have seen in reality, being employed doesn't stop a violent jihadist from committing terror.

Why aren't the wealthy gulf countries not taking these refugees? Maybe closing all borders in Europe and North America would direct some of the problem their way and force them to assist in dealing with the problems they've helped create.
 
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Again, the simpler point I'm trying to make is that multiculturalism isn't the same as being a welcoming melting pot.

Whether it's illegal immigrants from the Mexican border or its "refugees" from Syria, These massive unassimilated sub-cultures keep them artificially separate from our culture, language, laws, customs and economy and undermine the concept of legitimate immigration that actually did build this country.
 
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I say follow the money. People that have opportunity and make money don't generally shoot up the general public.

Europe traditionally is where people FLEE, not seek out. There's a reason why. Where would this country be but for hungry, ambitious people? We've had lots of insular immigrant enclaves and tension and immigrant crime. But they eventually prosper and participate in the larger economy.
 
U
syskatine said:
I say follow the money. People that have opportunity and make money don't generally shoot up the general public.

Europe traditionally is where people FLEE, not seek out. There's a reason why. Where would this country be but for hungry, ambitious people? We've had lots of insular immigrant enclaves and tension and immigrant crime. But they eventually prosper and participate in the larger economy.
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When was the last time Europe experienced a refugee crisis/mass migration of Muslims from Middle East countries? It's easy to theorize based on the results of much smaller scale migrations, such as Bosnia and Chechnya, but drawing the same conclusions based on those is calling an apple an orange.
 
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Medic007 said:
U

When was the last time Europe experienced a refugee crisis/mass migration of Muslims from Middle East countries? It's easy to theorize based on the results of much smaller scale migrations, such as Bosnia and Chechnya, but drawing the same conclusions based on those is calling an apple an orange.
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England has had a ton for a while.
 
Good discussion. No. GREAT discussion.

What happens if welfare safety nets are greatly reduced or eliminated for new arrivals? Does assimilation hasten or slow down?
 
This idea that all they need is economic opportunity has been debunked.

There are people of all economic backgrounds involved in radical Islam.
 
syskatine said:
How many wealthy Muslims have blown themselves up?
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Obviously I can't give you a number but it is well documented that highly educated, well off men and some women have joined ISIS.

I also think that people living aimless or hopeless lives are attracted to radical ideology and join mainly for a sense of belonging or just the thrill of it but it is not the only demographic.

OBL came from a family worth 100's of millions.
 
wyomingosualum said:
Good discussion. No. GREAT discussion.

What happens if welfare safety nets are greatly reduced or eliminated for new arrivals? Does assimilation hasten or slow down?
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Slows down as new arrivals turn to cultural centers to survive rather than the new society they are a part of - creating loyalties to that cultural group instead of the new home. UK good example here...
 
syskatine said:
I have a theory re: Europe vs. U.S. There's no upward mobility over there. Immigrants can't get anywhere financially.


Until the migrants/refugees/immigrants have some upward mobility and ability to make some money and have a good life they won't assimilate. Arguably, they can't assimilate. I'm gonna be called marxist, but you can't expect people to just be poor as hell without hope of improving their lot in life. Biggest advantage this country has over Europe with this muslim issue is upward mobility and giving immigrants some reason to embrace the country.

I've always wondered what happens if you take the stereotype of a teenage, muslim, broke, unskilled immigrant in Europe and while on his way to a meeting of radical losers, he was offered a job to make some good $. What would he do? And if he accepted the job and made some $, and was offered more work and responsibility for $ tomorrow, what would he do? All things being equal, I think people in general opt for making money and upward mobility over random destruction. You take away the $ and mobility and you get those idle hands and anger.

Nothing puts most of us in a good mood like making some $. Are they so different? I've gotten to know a couple of smart muslims relatively well here, and they're both good businessmen and have a lot going on and would never dream of doing something that would lose it all.
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You sound like the W Bush Administration.

Let that sink in.
 
davidallen said:
Sorry thought when you said "debunked" you actually had something of substance - my bad. Please continue with unsubstantiated bullshit.
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syskatine said:
Nothing proves a pattern like.... one.
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Do you ladies actually need a primer in the who's who of famous not poor jihadists? 0bama got your brains? Intentionally obtuse or really that clueless? I'll help you with a little dose of reality later today. In the meantime, crank up the old Google so you are able to provide real time fact checking.
 
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Interesting, David and sys would like proof that economic opportunity doesn't lead to assimilation. However, I fail to see any proof that economic opportunity leads to assimilation of Muslims from them. Yet, they claim the opposing view to be unsubstantiated bullshit.

There are studies on both sides of the argument.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0013188970390102

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01419870903318169

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140197107001200
 
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Remember Jihadi John? When he was dishing out his own personal form of evil some snowflake from the administration floated on the Sunday shows that what ISIS fighters really needed were jobs.

Then they found out that Jihadi John grew up in England and had a computer degree and was employed in good jobs.

This is not uncommon among jihadists. Again I'm sure there are people that might of went a different path had they been from families with means but a jobs program for jihadists is not going to stop this problem.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...nd-how-did-mohammed-emwazi-become-the-symbol/
 
I'd also highlight the shooters in San Bernadino who went to their place of work (hence having reasonable middle-class jobs) and killed 14 and injured 2 dozen more. The Pulse nightclub shooter was college educated and had a regular middle-class job as well. Then there's the 9/11 bombers who were being educated here in the US (pilot training). These are the 3 largest US-based Islamic terrorist events and none can be associated to economic non-opportunity.
 
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aix_xpert said:
I'd also highlight the shooters in San Bernadino who went to their place of work (hence having reasonable middle-class jobs) and killed 14 and injured 2 dozen more. The Pulse nightclub shooter was college educated and had a regular middle-class job as well. Then there's the 9/11 bombers who were being educated here in the US (pilot training). These are the 3 largest US-based Islamic terrorist events and none can be associated to economic non-opportunity.
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Obviously they needed raises and America needs strict gun control. I blame the AR 47
 
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aix_xpert said:
I'd also highlight the shooters in San Bernadino who went to their place of work (hence having reasonable middle-class jobs) and killed 14 and injured 2 dozen more. The Pulse nightclub shooter was college educated and had a regular middle-class job as well. Then there's the 9/11 bombers who were being educated here in the US (pilot training). These are the 3 largest US-based Islamic terrorist events and none can be associated to economic non-opportunity.
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Nidal Hasan was a psychiatrist in the Army when he shot up Fort Hood. Maybe he just needed a meaningful job.

Ayman al-Zawahiri was a surgeon when he joined the Jihad. Why is it so hard for doctors to get meaningful employment?
 
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The importation of Somalis needs to stop ASAP.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/06/03/isis-trial-minnesota-men-verdict

The taxi drivers in Minneapolis are primarily Somalis. A few years ago they started to refuse transport to passengers from the airport who had alcohol on them. Thankfully the taxi commission told them to do their jobs or face immediate firing. That did the trick.
 
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ThorOdinson13 said:
Interesting, David and sys would like proof that economic opportunity doesn't lead to assimilation. However, I fail to see any proof that economic opportunity leads to assimilation of Muslims from them. Yet, they claim the opposing view to be unsubstantiated bullshit.

There are studies on both sides of the argument.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0013188970390102

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01419870903318169

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140197107001200
Click to expand...

Pretty compelling article suggests they come more from affluent or higher educated demographic:

We are particularly struck by Charles Russell and Bowman Miller's work in this regard. In 1983, to derive a profile of terrorists, they assembled demographic information on more than three hundred fifty individuals engaged in terrorist activities in Latin America, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East from 1966 to 1976 based on newspaper reports. Their sample consisted of individuals from eighteen revolutionary groups known to engage in urban terrorism, including the Red Army in Japan, the Baader-Meinhof Gang in Germany, the Irish Republican Army in Northern Ireland, the Red Brigades in Italy, and the People's Liberation Army in Turkey. Russell and Miller found that "the vast majority of those individuals involved in terrorist activities as cadres or leaders is quite well educated. In fact, approximately two-thirds of those identified terrorists are persons with some university training, university graduates or postgraduate students." They also report that more than two-thirds of arrested terrorists "came from the middle or upper classes in their respective nations or areas."
 
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aix_xpert said:
I'd also highlight the shooters in San Bernadino who went to their place of work (hence having reasonable middle-class jobs) and killed 14 and injured 2 dozen more. The Pulse nightclub shooter was college educated and had a regular middle-class job as well. Then there's the 9/11 bombers who were being educated here in the US (pilot training). These are the 3 largest US-based Islamic terrorist events and none can be associated to economic non-opportunity.
Click to expand...

The Fort Hood shooter was a licensed, practicing physician.
 
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