What Has Made America Exceptional

[Ponca Dan]

Who do you think moves the product responsible for this nation’s opioid epidemic?

A) Cartels and gangs

B) GOV via CIA

C) Combo of A & B

D) Neither

I’ll bite and say A. Now please explain to me what that has to do with an immigrant working and making a living, of which there are tens of thousands for every single cartel or gang member. And if you get the chance, please explain how our liberty is being threatened by those immigrants.

I think a good argument can be made that our liberty is being threatened by the government demanding more and more control over us, more police brutality, a stronger surveillance state, etc. all in the name of protecting us from the cartels and gangs.

Please rebut.

 

[CBradSmith]

I am not denying that cartels and gangs exist. I am suggesting that it is probably not as extensive as we are being led to believe.

Your position is based on speculation?

 

[Ponca Dan]

Your position is based on speculation?

Speculation based on personal experience and observation, yes. I am around dozens of immigrants every day at construction job sites around the state, from the tiniest towns to rough sections of our major cities. I have never encountered a drug deal on a job site, I’ve never met an immigrant on a job site that has any connection to a cartel or gang. My bubble is apparently unique to me. I would gladly listen to your personal immigrant/cartel/gang experience.

 

[Rdcldad]

immigrant brick layer

don’t address me like i’m stupid
to suit your argument

that’s an illegal alien who payed a coyote 5k
to cross the border and get to oklahoma

who doesn’t have a drivers liscense or pay for insurance

sell that migrant mason line

to a vagina wailer

 

[Ponca Dan]

don’t address me like i’m stupid
to suit your argument

that’s an illegal alien who payed a coyote 5k
to cross the border and get to oklahoma

who doesn’t have a drivers liscense or pay for insurance

sell that migrant mason line

to a vagina wailer

OK, I’ll cross your name off the list of people who want to objectively look at both sides of an issue.

 

[Medic007]

I have never encountered a drug deal on a job site, I’ve never met an immigrant on a job site that has any connection to a cartel or gang.

Well, they don't typically advertise in neon lighting, so you likely wouldn't know if you met someone that connected to a gang or cartel.

I am not denying that cartels and gangs exist. I am suggesting that it is probably not as extensive as we are being led to believe.

Take a look at the level of violence in Mexico. Cartels are a big problem. Where do US street gangs get their drugs? Here's some interesting reading...

https://ctc.usma.edu/u-s-gang-alignment-with-mexican-drug-trafficking-organizations/

http://www.elpasotimes.com/story/ne...-generation-cartel-expands-el-paso/797069001/

https://www.npr.org/news/graphics/2009/mar/mexico_cartel/index.html
(Notice Ponca City on the NPR map...)

Also a good read...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5768117/

 

[1981grad]

Please explain to me how allowing people to come to the land of the free is pissing away the freedom.

Because it is breaking the law. You would not want someone to enter your house without your knowledge and permission.

America needs a thriving immigration. By enforcing our laws we will be able to process more immigrants in a shorter period of time and at a lower cost.

 

[CBradSmith]

Speculation based on personal experience and observation, yes. I am around dozens of immigrants every day at construction job sites around the state, from the tiniest towns to rough sections of our major cities. I have never encountered a drug deal on a job site, I’ve never met an immigrant on a job site that has any connection to a cartel or gang. My bubble is apparently unique to me. I would gladly listen to your personal immigrant/cartel/gang experience.

Of course your bubble is unique to you. Is that not "understood" by all. My bubble is unique to me.

I don't formulate expansive opinions based on what I see 1st person. Existence is much, much larger than that. And I certainly don't postulate optimized policy based on 1st person experience.

I'd consider that almost max(inconsiderate) to borrow an excel reference.

 

[CBradSmith]

OK, I’ll cross your name off the list of people who want to objectively look at both sides of an issue.

Good grief.

You're a grown man.

 

[JohnVoight]

I’ll bite and say A. Now please explain to me what that has to do with an immigrant working and making a living, of which there are tens of thousands for every single cartel or gang member. And if you get the chance, please explain how our liberty is being threatened by those immigrants.

I think a good argument can be made that our liberty is being threatened by the government demanding more and more control over us, more police brutality, a stronger surveillance state, etc. all in the name of protecting us from the cartels and gangs.

Please rebut.

Your argument was gang and cartel violence is not as extensive as we’re lead to believe. I argue the evidence states otherwise. Like you, I’m not interested in compromising our 4th amendment rights any more than they’ve already been comprised. All I want is a sane and rational immigrating policy like nearly every other developed nation enjoys, including our neighbors to the north and south.

I’m not attempting to draw comparisons between legal immigrants working jobs vs. illegal immigrants subverting our nation’s laws with the help of politicians and MSM. Merit-based immigration sounds like a perfectly legitimate policy to me. Our liberty is threatened with more votes for sanctuary cities, spreading to sanctuary states, and an imported voting class that would struggle to even define liberty. Not because some don’t speak English or aren’t intelligent. Rather, it’s simly a foreign concept.

 

[Rdcldad]

OK, I’ll cross your name off the list of people who want to objectively look at both sides of an issue.

see how easy that formula is

“migrant worker”=“illegal alien”= objectivity

how bout this formula

employer=illegal cheap labor=jail

or

border=barrier=no illegal alien issue

or

law=work visa= no employer issues


talk about moving the goalposts

your circumvention of the law
equates to my objectivity

 

[Ponca Dan]

Because it is breaking the law. You would not want someone to enter your house without your knowledge and permission.

America needs a thriving immigration. By enforcing our laws we will be able to process more immigrants in a shorter period of time and at a lower cost.

This is the best response of them all! I agree with you almost totally.

I have just one question. Are you saying that the fact that an immigrant comes into America illegally, that is what causes us to lose our liberty? Before Brad accuses me of putting words in your mouth let me stress that I am asking a question. If I understand you correctly you are suggesting the mere act of crossing the border without US government permission by a foreigner is cause for US citizens to lose our liberty. The fact they came here illegally has cost us a portion of our liberty? Again, let me stress, I’m trying to follow your logic as it appears to me you are presenting it. If I am misrepresenting your argument please correct me! If I am understanding you correctly please show how that has happened, because I do not understand how you get from one action to the other.

 

[Ponca Dan]

see how easy that formula is

“migrant worker”=“illegal alien”= objectivity

how bout this formula

employer=illegal cheap labor=jail

or

border=barrier=no illegal alien issue

or

law=work visa= no employer issues


talk about moving the goalposts

your circumvention of the law
equates to my objectivity

What’s kind of silly about your emotional outbursts is you have no idea what I think about the immigration problem. All I have asked is for you to explain how illegal immigration leads to loss of liberty. You have flitted from one non-response to another without attempting to answer the question. I have tried to bring you back to the central question, but you keep deviating away.

Let me repeat: I do not see a connection between illegal immigration and loss of liberty except for an attempted power grab by the government to protect us from a crisis it assures us exists.

You obviously disagree, but you refuse to explain the connection. I am more than happy to listen to such an explanation.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Well, they don't typically advertise in neon lighting, so you likely wouldn't know if you met someone that connected to a gang or cartel.


Take a look at the level of violence in Mexico. Cartels are a big problem. Where do US street gangs get their drugs? Here's some interesting reading...

https://ctc.usma.edu/u-s-gang-alignment-with-mexican-drug-trafficking-organizations/

http://www.elpasotimes.com/story/ne...-generation-cartel-expands-el-paso/797069001/

https://www.npr.org/news/graphics/2009/mar/mexico_cartel/index.html
(Notice Ponca City on the NPR map...)

Also a good read...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5768117/

They are all good reads and make excellent points. My problem is mentally I’m only able to carry on one thread of thought at a time. Right now I’m trying to understand how illegal immigration causes a loss of American liberty. Another time I will be happy to discuss with you the cartel/gang/drug problem, and discuss ways to reduce or eliminate it. Please understand I’m not trying to hide from you. Bring this up in a couple of days and we can talk about it. It should make for an interesting conversation!

 

[Ponca Dan]

Your argument was gang and cartel violence is not as extensive as we’re lead to believe. I argue the evidence states otherwise. Like you, I’m not interested in compromising our 4th amendment rights any more than they’ve already been comprised. All I want is a sane and rational immigrating policy like nearly every other developed nation enjoys, including our neighbors to the north and south.

I’m not attempting to draw comparisons between legal immigrants working jobs vs. illegal immigrants subverting our nation’s laws with the help of politicians and MSM. Merit-based immigration sounds like a perfectly legitimate policy to me. Our liberty is threatened with more votes for sanctuary cities, spreading to sanctuary states, and an imported voting class that would struggle to even define liberty. Not because some don’t speak English or aren’t intelligent. Rather, it’s simly a foreign concept.

Yours is the most intelligent post. The hardest for me to argue against, in no small part because I agree with most of it.

The only quibble I have is you seem to be blaming illegal immigrants for creating sanctuary cities. Your argument is better made against the politicians that create the sanctuaries. As for importing a voting block of illegal immigrants that, too, is not being pushed by the immigrants, but rather the cynical politicians who see a political profit for themselves.

What I am saying is the immigrants are not causing a loss of freedom. Politicians are far more culpable. The argument is with them

 

[Rdcldad]

What’s kind of silly about your emotional outbursts

All I have asked is for you to explain how illegal immigration leads to loss of liberty.

You have flitted from one non-response to another without attempting to answer the question.

I have tried to bring you back to the central question, but you keep deviating away

you’re like the obi won of immigration and liberty

i’ll leave it with this

ask bob barry jr how illegal immigration
affected his liberty

and get back to me

sabe?

 

[Ponca Dan]

Of course your bubble is unique to you. Is that not "understood" by all. My bubble is unique to me.

I don't formulate expansive opinions based on what I see 1st person. Existence is much, much larger than that. And I certainly don't postulate optimized policy based on 1st person experience.

I'd consider that almost max(inconsiderate) to borrow an excel reference.

I’m pretty sure I have not once postulated any policy during the course of this thread. The first response to the link in the OP implied illegal immigration causes us to lose liberty. Asking how illegal immigration causes a loss of liberty is not postulating a policy. You are hearing what you want to hear and then arguing against what you think you heard. Like virtually everyone else in this thread you have not answered the basic, simple question at the heart of the matter, the question asked after the first response to the link.

 

[CBradSmith]

Agree completely. And yet you support open borders which is a big part of pissing it away.

Please explain to me how allowing people to come to the land of the free is pissing away the freedom.

You didn't deny supporting open borders (policy).

Is @HanAholeSolo2.0 incorrect about your position?

*Admittedly I was piggy-backing on something he had seen you say, as he is not prone to put words into people's mouths.

 

[Ponca Dan]

You didn't deny supporting open borders (policy).

Is @HanAholeSolo2.0 incorrect about your position?

*Admittedly I was piggy-backing on something he had seen you say, as he is not prone to put words into people's mouths.

I do not deny that philosophically I support open borders. That is a far cry different from advocating a particular policy implementing such.

 

[CBradSmith]

I do not deny that philosophically I support open borders. That is a far cry different from advocating a particular policy implementing such.

I literally don't know how to respond to this doubletalk.

 

[Ponca Dan]

You didn't deny supporting open borders (policy).

Is @HanAholeSolo2.0 incorrect about your position?

*Admittedly I was piggy-backing on something he had seen you say, as he is not prone to put words into people's mouths.

I have tried to respond to you openly, civily and honestly. I have not shied away from anything you have said.

Can you extend to me the same courtesy and explain once and for all how illegal immigration causes Americans to lose their liberty?

 

[CBradSmith]

I have tried to respond to you openly, vividly and honestly. I have not shied away from anything you have said.

Can you extend to me the same courtesy and explain once and for all how illegal immigration causes Americans to lose their liberty?

I need to edit my other thread about listening to include you @Ponca Dan .

Greater men than myself have tried to have a conversation on the topic with you. If you dont have the capacity to listen to them, I'd be a fool to expect you to "listen" to me....no matter how genuinely you claim to want to do so.

Oh, I think you listened to a part of what they said, but as soon what they were saying infringed upon your idealized perception of how things are or ought to be, you stopped.

You are ideologically driven, full stop.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I literally don't know how to respond to this doubletalk.

Oh for crying out loud! Double talk? As a philosophical exercise I see open borders as the appropriate means. A policy is rendered to take steps to achieve the philosophical goal. To advocate a philosophical tenet is not the same thing as providing a policy. There is no double talk.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I need to edit my other thread about listening to include you @Ponca Dan .

Greater men than myself have tried to have a conversation on the topic with you. If you dont have the capacity to listen to them, I'd be a fool to expect you to "listen" to me....no matter how genuinely you claim to want to do so.

Hell, Brad, you never listened anyway. You argued against what you wanted to argue against. You evaded the central question from the get-go.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

@Ponca Dan we have created the cartels. We made criminals into kings with prohibition and we did it all over again with the drug war. What we have done to unstable countries with our war on drugs is an outrage.

 

[cableok]

@Ponca Dan we have created the cartels. We made criminals into kings with prohibition and we did it all over again with the drug war. What we have done to unstable countries with our war on drugs is an outrage.

I don’t agree with all your statement. But I do think your statements are have some validity.

In retrospect, in the 70s if we would have made most drugs legal, we would have saved a ton of money spent on law enforcement, added tax revenues, and likely lowered drug related crime violence.