And we keep trying to piss it away.
http://www.aei.org/publication/quotation-of-the-day-on-american-exceptionalism/
http://www.aei.org/publication/quotation-of-the-day-on-american-exceptionalism/
What Has Made America Exceptional
- Thread starter Ponca Dan
- Start date
Agree completely. And yet you support open borders which is a big part of pissing it away.
with that liberty
comes justice and accountability for all
every country from south of brownsville to the
tierra del fuego
operates under this notion that he he has the gold makes the rules
Please explain to me how allowing people to come to the land of the free is pissing away the freedom.
entering illegally
sending unaccompanied minors
traveling thru another country illegally vis a vis mexico to present yourself for asylum is not a real good start
respecting rule of law
sending unaccompanied minors
traveling thru another country illegally vis a vis mexico to present yourself for asylum is not a real good start
respecting rule of law
You seem to care about a neighbor you never met over the neighbor a mile away sleeping under a bridge.
I reject your priorities on that option.
You just explained it yourself quite eloquently.
It is an absurd and destructive idea to mot strictly regulate who is coming here, why and whether or not they value and understand Constitutional ideals and swear an oath of citizenship to the la d of freedom rather than simply bringing their own concept of unfair governance to a new place.
It’s self evident that circumventing the naturalization process entirely creates NO VALUE to the concept of being a citizen of the American experiment in liberty.
Nobody is disallowing people from coming here. It just needs to be a process and we need to be naturalizing people who have a basic concept of our liberties themselves or we stupidly risk destabilizing the future of an America where liberties are valued.
Look around. We already live in a time where free speech is routinely attacked and often disallowed. I can’t think of many things guaranteed to destabilize a constitutional republic faster than allowing massive groups of anonymous people from places that do not celebrate liberty to come here without any naturalization process - to congregate in enclaves where foreign languages and cultures have primacy in a region geographically considered by many to be original Mexican property.
Open borders is by far your biggest blindspot. It’s a fatal flaw in the entire functional concept of preserving liberty.
This makes no sense. It’s a deflection from the question I asked. How does allowing people to enter the land of the free cause a loss of freedom?
Import the third world -- become the third world.
The welfare usage rates among immigrants (especially immigrants from south of the US) are significantly higher than the native US population.
Does any country besides the US immediately give immigrants welfare? You usually have to pay taxes into the system first.
The welfare usage rates among immigrants (especially immigrants from south of the US) are significantly higher than the native US population.
Does any country besides the US immediately give immigrants welfare? You usually have to pay taxes into the system first.
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It’s going to take me awhile to soak up everything you wrote.
In the meantime, just out of curiosity I wonder if you would answer something for me. Do you personally know any immigrants from Central America, whether here legally or not? I mean really know them? Worked beside them, for them, had them work for you? Know their families? Had them to your house for dinner? Been to their house? Spent an afternoon drinking beer and talking football? I ask because you seem to think you know their motives for coming here. You seem to think they want to come here so they can screw up America, they want to turn our country into the same psychotic mess they left behind.
Dynamic thinker on economic issues you support but not so much on other issues?
I'm not big on continuing a conversation where we have to build from ground zero.
How do you, Dan, discern the difference between that which you describe and that which intends harm?
Rather than criminalize the immigration why don’t we eliminate the welfare? So many of you think they are coming here strictly for the welfare. By your logic wouldn’t it make sense that they wouldn’t come if there was no welfare for them? Why throw them in prison, separate them from their loved ones, etc. Just stop the welfare and they’ll stop coming. Why don’t you put your energy into that?Import the third world -- become the third world.
The welfare usage rates among immigrants (especially immigrants from south of the US) are significantly higher than the native US population.
Does any country besides the US immediately give immigrants welfare? You usually have to pay taxes into the system first.
I would attempt to answer this question but I have no idea what you just asked.
NZ posts saying 3rd world people will turn us into a 3rd world. I respond and am told I’m reading minds.
No Sir I do not believe that. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Other than a small % if criminals who take advantage of our absurd border controls, I’m quite positive the people coming here are doing so to better themselves and provide their children with greater opportunities.
This in no way invalidates a word of what I said above.
What do you think the average Equadorian knows about our Constitution or system of representative self governance? Circumventing a naturalization process does not lead to a citizen who understands or feels invested in the American experiment.
There's a difference between projection and reading basic descriptive statistics.
I would encourage that you try not to read in too much to people's thoughts. At least not until you feel confident in your ability to "listen." The kind of listening your wife wants you to do (and can be a skill used on/with everybody)
Where have I said they are coming for welfare? You’ve got a lot of straw men in the field on this one Dan.
The OP was a link saying what makes America great is liberty. The thread has turned into a discussion on immigration. I have asked two questions.
1). How does immigration (open borders) eliminate liberty?
2). Why not eliminate the welfare?
I’m happy to have a conversation about the OP or either of my questions. I’ll even keep it civil.
1). How does immigration (open borders) eliminate liberty?
2). Why not eliminate the welfare?
I’m happy to have a conversation about the OP or either of my questions. I’ll even keep it civil.
Only interested in talking within your framing of situations.
I dont anticipate that is a dialogue as much as a lecture.
There’s no reason it shouldn’t be civil. And in my opinion - I find the concept of open borders to be at clear philosophical odds with protecting this extremely unique human experiment.
I don’t give a **** why someone wants to come here illegally. Under no circumstances should that be allowed or encouraged.
I wonder if these rich white liberals will welcome illegals into their country clubs, as members not as the grounds crew?
I wonder if these rich white liberals will welcome illegals into their country clubs, as members not as the grounds crew?
The obvious exploitation of these illegal immigrants for a subjugated voting class for the Dems and a subjugated labor class for the GOPe, and the resulting mass of people who may or may not value preserving liberty all that much sure seems like the kind of thing that should piss off full blooded libertarians. I’m like 2/3 libertarian and it pisses me off.
It seems to me the person who starts a thread should get to talk about that for which he started the thread. It’s not much of a dialogue when the goal posts keep changing, and when one side of the dialogue uses as hominem as his method of conversing.
Sometimes OP topics don’t drive the conversation. Be glad this post is something that is engaging conversation. Not all of your posts do quite as well in that regard.
Besides I think this is exactly on topic still.
I asked you to explain your experience with the immigrants you know. I’ll give you mine. I say right up front my experience is completely anecdotal, not in any way scientific.
I work in construction, and have for 50 years. I have worked with immigrants and have employed them. Here’s what I have learned about them.
They’re here for the work. There are no jobs for them where they came from. They came here because someone they know told them they could get them on with a construction crew.
They are Mexicans, Guatemalans, etc., and they think of themselves as such. They are not interested in becoming Americans. They are not interested in American politics. They are not interested in becoming American citizens, voting in American elections, any of that. They view our politics as a bunch of crap we white people involve ourselves in.
They came here to work and send some of their earnings back to their families. They hope to scrape together enough money so they can go home and start their own business.
Most of them had no idea there was any kind of welfare available to them. That’s not why they came. When they got here they were told of the welfare they could get, and why wouldn’t they avail themselves of it if Americans are so stupid to offer it?
Many of them don’t speak English, and have no desire to learn it beyond a very rudimentary level. They don’t plan on staying. The ones that do speak the best English usually get the higher authority jobs. As an aside I will say many of them understand English a lot better than I understand Spanish.
As a general rule they are the happiest, friendliest, most gregarious people I know. Most of them would split their lunch with you if you were hungry. They are socially very consevative. Very family oriented. Love to drink beer. Love to have outings with friends. They are surprisingly a lot like us.
They do not pose a threat to American liberty. They do not want to turn America into Mexico. They just want to work.
That's my main issue -- our experiment is so incredibly unique and rare, throughout recent decades, and throughout human history.
Especially protected free speech and expression.
you live work and do business in
ponca city small town america
benefit greatly from illegal labor
cartels and gangs are not an issue in your experience
So you are ok with exploiting them below maket value because in your anecdotal experience they don’t understand or want first world liberty?
not really sure what to make of that. Sounds pretty exploitative though.
Actually I live and work in Edmond. But I have not witnessed the cartels and gangs about which you refer. I would posit the proposition that maybe the notion of cartels and gangs is a little overblown as it regards the immigrant population total. Consider that maybe the cartel/gang scenario is a hook used to scare us into letting the government gain more control over our lives under the pretense it is protecting us. Do you think there might be a smidgin of truth in that?
This is an example of the changing goalposts. We’ve gone away from the assertion that immigrants would cause us to lose our liberty to the assertion that immigrants are being unfairly exploited.
I will discuss this with you if you want, but it just takes us another step away from the OP. Maybe one of the reasons disagreements on this board never come to a resolution is because one side or the other - or both sides simultaneously - change the subject. We wind up meandering all over, both sides safe and secure from having to face they may be wrong on the issue. (Before you accuse me of doing the same thing I admit and agree that I often do the same thing. Although I try not to.)
Definitely no issue with cartels or gangs in the US. Drugs just bring themselves across the border and the latin gangs either don't exist or are entirely made up of US citizens. The government is definitely trying to gain more control over our lives by trying to keep these non issues at bay. I feel my personal liberties being stripped away every time an illegal is apprehended or a pile of drugs is intercepted.
I am not denying that cartels and gangs exist. I am suggesting that it is probably not as extensive as we are being led to believe.
i ran into an old friend
hadn’t seen her in ten years
asked how her kids were
her 19yr old edmond memorial graf
in rehab
heroin
another friend
21yr old niece springfield mo
OD heroin
god bless you
you live in a bubble
I’m more than willing to pop the bubble! Please explain to me how an immigrant brick layer has turned your friend’s children into addicts, and how he threatens the political liberty we believe we enjoy.
Who do you think moves the product responsible for this nation’s opioid epidemic?
A) Cartels and gangs
B) GOV via CIA
C) Combo of A & B
D) Neither
