What has changed at Oklahoma State from 8 or so years ago?

[Pennstate1985]

OSU's star is rising these days, and honestly, I see you guys competing at a high level and for championships for the foreseeable future. My curiosity is why did you guys go through a period of doldrums a number of years ago? Was it a down cycle in OK high school wrestling back then that has gone back up? Did Smith change his recruiting philosophy? Did he change his coaching style to allow for each wrestler to maximize their potential rather than fit into John's style? Has a new assistant made the difference? Was it simply that there was a period where star recruits didn't pan out for some reason or another?

One thing I noticed, and maybe it is just happenstance, but OSU has had a resurgence since entering the Scuffle. Has that helped your early season evaluation process? Has it helped attract recruits?

Just looking for feedback. Always curious about why and how coaches who have had success and then a lack thereof get back on top of their game.

 

[osu2082]

It's probably a myriad of things... We lost one of the best assistants in the country in Pat Smith. Oklahoma HS wrestling also had a short downturn which did not help. You add a few recruting missed and you have some things going against you.

You also have to take account that Brands going back to Iowa, Cael going to PSU and Ryan pushing OhSt. to a new level where also occurring durring this time frame.

The landscape of wrestling has changed and blue chip guys have more solid options to receive top flight coaching which in the end is a great thing.

 

[oberebo]

It's probably a myriad of things... We lost one of the best assistants in the country in Pat Smith. Oklahoma HS wrestling also had a short downturn which did not help. You add a few recruting missed and you have some things going against you.

You also have to take account that Brands going back to Iowa, Cael going to PSU and Ryan pushing OhSt. to a new level where also occurring durring this time frame.

The landscape of wrestling has changed and blue chip guys have more solid options to receive top flight coaching which in the end is a great thing.

I agree with everything said by osu2082 and parity has raised its head which has increased attendance at many schools and a new fan base. Cael and Penn State are riding high right now and kudos both to Cael and Pennsylvania wrestling in general which is by far the best wrestling State in the country. Losing Pat Smith hurt more than anyone could have imagined. I wish there was a way to get him back to his home. Success is fickle and the four year run at the start of this century could not be sustained. Penn State is in the middle of a run that may turn out to be significantly longer but hope springs eternal and next year will be very interesting.

 

[Pennstate1985]

It's probably a myriad of things... We lost one of the best assistants in the country in Pat Smith. Oklahoma HS wrestling also had a short downturn which did not help. You add a few recruting missed and you have some things going against you.

You also have to take account that Brands going back to Iowa, Cael going to PSU and Ryan pushing OhSt. to a new level where also occurring durring this time frame.

The landscape of wrestling has changed and blue chip guys have more solid options to receive top flight coaching which in the end is a great thing.

Thanks for the replies guys.

I had forgotten all about Pat leaving as a large reason. You mention tOSU, Iowa, and PSU all getting to a new level, but this was done while Oklahoma State was also reaching that level. As an aside, not sure I'd put Iowa on that new level. Seems they couldn't sustain things after the double recruiting class when Brands was hired, and maybe that masked some internal issues they have. I agree that downturns and upturns in the local HS market can have profound impacts on college teams.

 

[osukev1988]

After watching the big 10 finals and ncaa the biggest problem with iowa wrestling is they only know how to box but cant compete with athletes that know how to wrestle. Their style was nearly the death of wrestling. I dont respect cael in the least for leaving his alma mater as it is pretty evident he knows how to coach these kids how to wrestle on their feet as well as from top and bottom and he could have had the same success at iowa state instead of leaving their cupboard bare, but at least he brought a new style to the big 10 which doesnt involve push pull for 7 minutes and never taking an offensive shot. penn state was the beneficiary of cael bringing some recruits of iowa state with him to penn st also which was right after the brands move which paired taylor and ruth and helped you start your run. Oklahoma State has weathered the storm and next year could have 9 aa's and should win it all.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Next year imo OSU and PSU are neck and neck for the title, but for now, I give the nod to you guys. I'd put tOSU close behind, with VT and Iowa battling for 4th again. Iowa has a couple weak weights and not enough firepower to overcome it. VT is an all around good team but lacks star power to give them a 20-25 point guy at any particular weight. tOSU will be very strong again next year, but again lack the depth to go with their top guns. As for OSU and PSU, I think both team's fans can look at the respective linups and see 8 or 9 AA's on paper. But history says that 8 or more AA's is fairly rare and somewhat unrealistic due to injury, guys losing form late, and the luck of the draw, and that even great teams have a hard time achieving more than 7.

PSU will have new guys in at 125, 133, 165, 197, and essentially heavy, as he spent the last year recovering from a pectoral injury. We will have close competition at 184 too among two previous starters. So we have an uphill climb even though I can see AA at 3 or more of those 5 weights. I just don't see top 4 from any of those guys yet, and that's what you need to win nationals. A 4th place finish this year earned an average of 15 points, whereas the 7th place guy averaged 7 points. So three 4th placers more than equals six AA's at 7th/8th. Food for thought regarding recruiting strategy among the blue chippers.

 

[Wheeling Cowboy]

Top shelf high school talent from Oklahoma with more on the way. . Very deep in most weights. Probably could put together a 2nd team that would compete for top 15 or 20.

 

[hawkssox1]

.
. As an aside, not sure I'd put Iowa on that new level. Seems they couldn't sustain things after the double recruiting class when Brands was hired, and maybe that masked some internal issues they have.


Have to go to another site to bad mouth Iowa should have known.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Hawkssox1,

Not going to get into an Iowa fight with you on a OSU board, but I don't see the badmouth of Iowa in my post. I have nothing bad to say about Iowa or OSU on my home boards. It's my honest opinion that internally, Iowa was struggling with how best to compete in this new climate. I think they've moved forward, and correctly so. You took one sentence out of context out of the thousands I've posted on the internet and made me an Iowa hater. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I also note that you replied to my post a month later and just after Iowa landed Lee and Teasdale. Many statements made in the past by every poster can be made to look stupid given current events. Doesn't make them hateful.

 

[Lattner]

Hawkssox1,

Not going to get into an Iowa fight with you on a OSU board, but I don't see the badmouth of Iowa in my post. I have nothing bad to say about Iowa or OSU on my home boards. It's my honest opinion that internally, Iowa was struggling with how best to compete in this new climate. I think they've moved forward, and correctly so. You took one sentence out of context out of the thousands I've posted on the internet and made me an Iowa hater. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I also note that you replied to my post a month later and just after Iowa landed Lee and Teasdale. Many statements made in the past by every poster can be made to look stupid given current events. Doesn't make them hateful.

Says the troll.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Says the troll.

Five years to make your first post on a rival board and this is it? Grow up.

 

[Mrgrapple]

Iowa may not win a team trophy again next year. OSU, Penn State, Ohio State should be the top 3. l believe it will be a two team race for the title. I don't think anything was wrong with Cael heading east. Great opportunity for him and he jumped on it.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Iowa may not win a team trophy again next year. OSU, Penn State, Ohio State should be the top 3. l believe it will be a two team race for the title. I don't think anything was wrong with Cael heading east. Great opportunity for him and he jumped on it.

I'm not just saying this because I'm on an OSU board, but if Oklahoma State can find a heavy, they are the team to beat next year. Up and down they are solid. PSU has five new wrestlers in the lineup, and even though I believe they produce, that's a BIG what if. tOSU has questions at either 125 or 133 depending on NATO, and Snyder is a question depending on the Olympics outcome. Not to mention a couple new starters there. Iowa will have a relatively young lineup surrounding their veterans, and again, who knows what they end up doing. I think it comes down to PSU and OSU again next year.

 

[Lattner]

I'm not just saying this because I'm on an OSU board, but if Oklahoma State can find a heavy, they are the team to beat next year. Up and down they are solid. PSU has five new wrestlers in the lineup, and even though I believe they produce, that's a BIG what if. tOSU has questions at either 125 or 133 depending on NATO, and Snyder is a question depending on the Olympics outcome. Not to mention a couple new starters there. Iowa will have a relatively young lineup surrounding their veterans, and again, who knows what they end up doing. I think it comes down to PSU and OSU again next year.

I'm impressed.
A troll's troll!

 

[lookleft goright]

I'm impressed.
A troll's troll!

What makes him a troll? Am I a troll also, by your standards? He sounds like a guy who likes to talk wrestling to me.

 

[Pennstate1985]

What makes him a troll? Am I a troll also, by your standards? He sounds like a guy who likes to talk wrestling to me.

I looked up Lattner on the Iowa board. Has something like 17 posts there, and most of them are along the lines of, "you're a troll". Since the behavior is childish, I'm assuming Lattner is a kid looking for anyone to notice him. Knowing that, he can spout off all he wants and I'll stick to wrestling. But I am honored that I have my very own internet stalker. That's gotta be worth something.

 

[proud2bpokes]

OSU's star is rising these days, and honestly, I see you guys competing at a high level and for championships for the foreseeable future. My curiosity is why did you guys go through a period of doldrums a number of years ago? Was it a down cycle in OK high school wrestling back then that has gone back up? Did Smith change his recruiting philosophy? Did he change his coaching style to allow for each wrestler to maximize their potential rather than fit into John's style? Has a new assistant made the difference? Was it simply that there was a period where star recruits didn't pan out for some reason or another?

One thing I noticed, and maybe it is just happenstance, but OSU has had a resurgence since entering the Scuffle. Has that helped your early season evaluation process? Has it helped attract recruits?

Just looking for feedback. Always curious about why and how coaches who have had success and then a lack thereof get back on top of their game.

Since this is back to the top, I thought I might add to the topic from the OP. The affirmative answer to two of your questions provide the explanation in my opinion.

Was it a down cycle in OK high school wrestling? Coach Smith has stated before that for OSU to complete for the title, half of the lineup needs to be competitive OK talent. From 03-08, the state produced ranked wrestlers in Joel Flaggert, the Jones bros, Newly McSpadden, the Vernon bros, Jarod Rosholt, Lance Thompson, and Jamal Parks. These were top 50 type recruits. That is nine recruits in six years (only four signed with OSU). Most likely, Blair or St Eds produced more in that same period. There is probably a region in PA that produced that many in a two year period alone. Historically, OSU has averaged about 30 AA every six years. These six OK signing classes produced 3 AA for OSU. In 09, the talent impoved greatly with only a few down years mixed in.

Was it simply that there was a period where star recruits didn't pan out for some reason or another? That same time period saw the out of state signings of Daniel Frishkorn, Ryan Davis, Coleman Scott, Nathan Morgan, Brandon Mason, Jordan Frishkorn, Ben Ashmore, Neil Erisman, Clayton Foster, Luke Ashmore, Luke Silver, Alex Meade, and Jordan Oliver. That is 9 top 10 recruits in the six year period and 13 top 50 from out of state. Injuries to D. Frishkorn and Ryan Davis started the period badly. This group produced 15 AA (11 came from Scott, Morgan and Oliver). However, the talent was there for many more.

 

[OSUMatFan]

Congratulations PennState1985:
You have made it in the world of Social Media!

I appreciate your comments, but have to say I am not as optimistic about our National Championship chances as you are. It takes those hammers that are expected to be number 1 or number 2 like Heil to make a championship. We have 8 other guys that should be All American's, but nagging injuries and just not showing up one match can screw up AA opportunities. Penn State has at least two of those guys as does Ohio State.
Also I am not ready to write off Iowa as a contender in any year.
Nice analysis Proud2bPoke