Trump is wrong
- Thread starter tlwwake
- Start date
Well, I grew up in an environment in which all grades lined up perfectly before school and saluted the flag and pledged our allegiance to the flag, you got in serious trouble if you were not on point in getting lined up and respectful as the stars and stripes and the state flag where raised up the flag pole. We did that no matter how freezing cold it was and if we had 8 foot snow drifts or ice in the parking lot. We could not wait to have our turn to be old enough to proudly raise the flag each morning, and then to carefully and meticulously take the flag down after school and make sure it is was folded perfectly and ready for the next morning. After that, we went to our class rooms and saluted the flag one more time and sang the first verse of My Country, 'Tis of Thee.
What is sad, is people think this is not a big deal. Well, I will always remember why I have respect for that flag, it is a symbol of our freedom and it is a reminder of all the lives that have been sacrificed for those freedoms.
After being a hardcore NFL and College football fan since a very young age, I watched a total of about 16 quarters of NFL football last year.
The fact Trump feels the need to speak up to do what the owners should do is sad, so you are right in the sense it is no big deal to just turn it off and never watch again. Maybe if people were raised to respect our flag and country everyone would treat each other better, but for me it really hurts to see our symbol of freedom disrespected, and we have one family member that died in WW2, and WW2 really screwed up my dad. Sorry, but I do not believe my dad or my family member died so millionaires can disrespect our flag on national TV and to do this while performing their job duties and making millions and at the cost of Owners, sponsors, advertisers, and fans. My dad would have no problem with free speech on your own dime and time. My family never had some of the opportunities these pampered, coddled, and socially promoted athletes have had handed to them. I was the first person in my family to go to college, my dad was too poor to go, and he was a great baseball player and was drafted by the White Sox but went to work at Sears in Chicago because it paid more money and sports was just entertainment. I hope more viewers turn-off, TV ratings crash, TV revenue plummets, and the NFL files bankruptcy or has to seriously re-negotiate player contracts and pay them far less. Trump should tell everyone not to watch if they do not like it.
What is sad, is people think this is not a big deal. Well, I will always remember why I have respect for that flag, it is a symbol of our freedom and it is a reminder of all the lives that have been sacrificed for those freedoms.
After being a hardcore NFL and College football fan since a very young age, I watched a total of about 16 quarters of NFL football last year.
The fact Trump feels the need to speak up to do what the owners should do is sad, so you are right in the sense it is no big deal to just turn it off and never watch again. Maybe if people were raised to respect our flag and country everyone would treat each other better, but for me it really hurts to see our symbol of freedom disrespected, and we have one family member that died in WW2, and WW2 really screwed up my dad. Sorry, but I do not believe my dad or my family member died so millionaires can disrespect our flag on national TV and to do this while performing their job duties and making millions and at the cost of Owners, sponsors, advertisers, and fans. My dad would have no problem with free speech on your own dime and time. My family never had some of the opportunities these pampered, coddled, and socially promoted athletes have had handed to them. I was the first person in my family to go to college, my dad was too poor to go, and he was a great baseball player and was drafted by the White Sox but went to work at Sears in Chicago because it paid more money and sports was just entertainment. I hope more viewers turn-off, TV ratings crash, TV revenue plummets, and the NFL files bankruptcy or has to seriously re-negotiate player contracts and pay them far less. Trump should tell everyone not to watch if they do not like it.
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If Trump accepted advice from Ben Shapiro, Jeb would have been the nominee, and Hillary would be in the White House.
Trump is the only GOP figure who fights and wins in the culture wars. And it literally drives the left insane.
The NFL / National Anthem stuff is a winning issue — and today already caused yet another cnn humiliation.
Trump is the only GOP figure who fights and wins in the culture wars. And it literally drives the left insane.
The NFL / National Anthem stuff is a winning issue — and today already caused yet another cnn humiliation.
The whole Eagles mess makes Trump look small and petty. The child-in-chief.
However, he is betting it plays with his hardcore supporters who seem to equate American patriotism with forced ritual. He is probably right though, it will continue to play with those individuals and so that is why he continues this nonsense.
However, he is betting it plays with his hardcore supporters who seem to equate American patriotism with forced ritual. He is probably right though, it will continue to play with those individuals and so that is why he continues this nonsense.
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I could be wrong but I don't think he's commented out of the blue He responded to the new rule and the eagles, not much more. Hopefully silence and not giving a crap will send it on its way.
Forced ritual equals patriotism? What a crock of shit. Problem is individuals that have been given opportunities very few in this country receive somehow think their athletic ability gives them the right to flip some the middle finger due to their self anointed intellectual knowledge and they believe they are so privileged it is their right to do so with no consequence, none and they do it on some else’s dime while they are paid to piss on the flag.
When 50,000 to 100,000 fans at every game stand and are respectful to the flag that is a forced ritual? Or how about in California where they cancelled the national anthem before an event and the fans sang it anyway. Nothing forced. You think this is all about votes, which is how libs see things, of course you call this forced ritual to further politicize this and gain points for your team. No way this is about sincere feelings of patriotism, just minimize people that feel patriotic.
Good for these privileged and spoiled athletes. many are tuning out the NFL, that is our right. If it is a forced ritual to honor this country and those who fought for it and died for it, get the hell out. That is not forced ritual, that is my opinion and it is based on the fact some of us believe it means something to be an American and it is important to respect those who have served our country and it is important to protect our way of life.
You have a problem with being in a court room and not standing for the judge? Or how about any other situation in which any normal human being knows it is proper to show respect? You tell people to phuck off when they tell you good morning? You go to church and cuss like a sailor? You walk in your bosses office and disrespect him? Are these all forced behaviors? No, proper etiquette and showing respect is a sign of good upbringing and being of good character. Guess libs have to be forced to behave like a normal person.
I do not want these athletes to be forced to do anything they do not want to do, and in my opinion they should be fired for pissing on the flag in front of millions while making millions and they can go home light the flag on fire if they want on their own dime and time.
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Someone just took 2 cents and didn’t make change.
Since not a single Eagle took a knee last season this was not about the flag at all.
It was a move by the Eagles to embarrass the President of the United States, it is classless. I would say the same thing if Obama was in the WH.
I agree with Shapiro.
Trump continues his history of having public sentiment on his side and then blowing it. He should let the 10 Eagles that wanted to visit the WH to attend. The public would see through the media making it out to be bad for Trump. They would see the players not attending as making a stupid political statement. Instead, he alienated Eagles players, but more importantly fans.
Our President is getting ready to negotiate with North Korea and you publicly disrespect the President of the United States this way? Eagles should have never been so classless and put our President in that position.
So, when a lib gets the WH all those that voted against them will not go as some form of political protest?
Just cancel all of these things, sports figures are not so special or have so much political knowledge that somehow they deserve a trip to the WH. I am sure Trump has more important things to do, so just stop issuing any invites and cancel them all.
Screw people if they are classless and can not act in a civil and respectful manner. I am not watching the NFL next year anyway, and if I do it will not be much. By rejecting the President and trying to embarrass him you are rejecting our democratic process that put him in office.
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No, not if they individually choose to do so.
But you know what forced ritual is? Demanding that someone stand and be "respectful" to the flag in some prescribed manner. And if they don't stand, labeling them "unpatriotic" or "spoiled" or "privileged" or "unAmerican."
You want to know what else is forced ritual? Demanding that someone leave a locker room and act in some prescribed manner during the playing of the national anthem. And if they don't leave, labeling them "disrespectful" or "unpatrotic" or "unAmerican."
Want another example? Demanding that someone agree with their President when he "insists" that they do exactly what he wants them to do during the national anthem. And if they don't, label them "disrespectful" or "unpatatroic" or "unAmerican" and tell them they can't come to the White House.
Many Americans believe that we honor this country and those who fought and died for it by honoring the principles this country stands for. Like freedoms.
Freedom of speech. Freedom of assembly. Freedom to protest.
Those freedoms are part of our way of life. "Forced" ritual and faux patriotism are the tools of authoritarian governments. You know, governments that that those who fought and died for this country fought and died against.
You want to honor America? You want to honor those who fought and died? Then honor what America truly stands for, even when it makes you uncomfortable.
You are absolutely correct. That is your right.
I can disagree with you, but you know what, I would never force you to watch the NFL. I may disagree with your reasoning, but I won't call you "unpatriotic" or "spoiled" or "unAmerican."
It is very American to exercise your rights, your freedoms.
So, we can't "disrespect" the President now? We can't disagree with the President, protest against the President?
If one wants to live in a country where they don't disrespect/disagree/protest against their leader, North Korea is a great option. Here in the USA though, disagreeing with and protesting against the President is what we do. It is one of those rights we cherish.
And thank goodness for that.
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I don't like it when the President is disrespected, but I agree with your sentiment.
If the NFL wants to project this image, more power to them. But don't whine when revenues start dropping because people like me are no longer interested in their product.
I don't think many of the NFL owners want to project the image of protest and that is why we saw them impose the new rule.
And again, no one should whine if someone chooses to stop watching the NFL because they disagree with something. Just like no one should whine when individuals choose not to visit with Trump because they disagree with him.
This has nothing to do with Trump for me, obviously you see this as a Trump / Politcal issue I do not.
I am not demanding the players to do anything.
Do you have 100% freedom of speech, feeedom of assembly, and freedom of protest with your employer? Would your employer allow you to do that during the TV time they paid for in front of millions? Answer that.
The answer for all other Americans other then NFL players, is a resounding hell no. Ask Roseanne Barr, an entertainer no different then these athletes if she gets the same right to freedom of speech as these NFL players?
If you defended Roseanne Barr you have a leg to stand on only from a consistency perspective, but not in reality.
Roseanne Barr never used her actual SHOW
to force her personal political beliefs down your throat. At least she did not burn or disrespect the flag on live TV. She got axed for her freedom of speech while on her own dime and time, these players are on someone else’s dime and time doing this.
NFL players should not be exempt from consequences for their actions and words, no one is going to send them to jail for their actions, but they certainly can be held accountable by their employer and fired as they should be.
When comparing the freedom of speech afforded to NFL players, the NFL players hide behind race and get to do what they want on live TV to disrespect the flag, while the white women who is not from a minority race gets fired for her words while not even on live TV. Both situations are disgusting to me. Interesting that NFL players keep their job and Roseanne gets fired.
So much for your freedom of speech BS.
You can not have it both ways.
No one is taking away these player’s civil rights, the fact is if they wanted to they could force these players to stand or they could fire them and I believe they should be fired, no different then Roseanne Barr.
I suppose you believe Kaepernick was black balled, fact is he is a shitty employee that is bad for business and places his individual and selfish priorities over the objectives of the NFL and its fans. He was a disturbance to his fellow employees and the workplace and his actions insulted customers. I would not want him in my locker room, attention hog that thinks he is more enlightened then everyone else. Owners will not hire him because he is a shitty employee and not
loyal to his employer, he is loyal to himself.
So you want to hide behind freedom of speech BS in a setting that has no guaranteed
right to freedom of speech because the players did not pay for the TV air time and also shame people for calling out when individuals are acting selfishly and as spoiled and privileged individuals?
I said it before and I will say it again, if the players had pooled their money together thru the player’s union and purchased ads during NFL games to express concerns over society and offered real solutions I would have taken them far more seriously and appreciated the fact they felt it was important enough of an issue to invest their own time and money to do a public service announcement. Instead they were lazy about it insulted people and disrespected the flag.
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Nope.
Yes, Roseanne Barr gets the same treatment. ABC chose to fire her over her racist tweet. The NFL hasn't chosen to fire players engaged in protest. Instead, they put in place a new rule.
The NFL could fire them it they so choose though, just like ABC had such a choice with Roseanne.
Really? Did you watch Roseanne? Roseanne very often used her show to showcase her viewpoints, including political viewpoints. That was one thing the show was known for (and something conservatives use to complain about btw).
I am not claiming they shouldn't be exempt from consequences.
What I and other people do take issue with though is labeling them "unpatriotic" and "unAmerican," with hearing a President insist people act a certain way during the national anthem or get labeled "unAmerican" by him, with the notion that protest equals disrespect, with faux patriotism, etc.
I don't know that for a fact, but it appears that way. And while I disagree with such action, NFL teams can choose to not hire him. Kaepernick is an adult and he knew there would be consequences to his decision to protest.
Kaepernick though isn't unpatriotic, unAmerican, or disrespectful because he chooses to protest. He has the right to do what he did and it doesn't mean he is any less American than you or I.
Now, allow me to ask you a question OKState1. How has any of this really affected you? So some football players kneeled during the national anthem to protest injustice. How did such action personally affect you besides offending you?
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Not sure of your point, I know of no one that felt the teacher’s did not have a right to go to the capital to assemble and protest. I believe the teachers were not protesting on live TV paid for by the school districts. I believe the only question that came up was could the teachers be fired for not reporting to work if they did not have paid time off available to protest at the capital. Legally I would assume the teachers could have been fired if they did not report to work and had no paid time off available, but I am not familiar with teacher’s contracts. I do not see the situations as analogous.
So interesting that we talk about things like this instead of say... the army of judicial appointments and US attorneys recently.
How do you know Kaepernick is not unpatriotic? You know him personally? He used the wrong venue to get his “message” out, finger pointer who offered no solutions.
Trump because he is President has not given up his citizenship so he speaks
his mind, so how has Trump affected you besides offending you? Really affected you? Has it, or like everything with Trump is it all about votes in your mind? He has a right to his opinion, just like you, NFL players, etc...Free speech right? But you do not know either Kaapernick or Trump and put labels on their positions based on what appears to be mostly political views.
I had an Uncle that died in WW2, my dad fought in WW2 and it screwed him up. I know others impacted by war. My dad fought under that flag, my uncle died under that flag as did many others.
Faux patriotism? Read my earlier posts, this was something I grew up with and I am glad I did, I grew up in an environment of respecting the flag and loving our country.
You will never get it because evidently you think all patriotism is faux because you think it is fueled by Trump I guess.
I had the same season tickets at OSU for decades, gave them up last year because of my wife’s MS and my horrible knee joints.
The section I was in we shared photos of our kids and then our grand kids.
I marked time not by birthday’s and New Year’s, but the season opener for
Football. Seeing everyone back healthy and ok in our section was always a relief. My FAVORITE moment of the entire football season, was standing for the national anthem at our home opener, I always hoped for a fly over. Grateful to have lived another year. I always made sure to have my sunglasses on because I could not sing the anthem, too choked up with tears. What a privilege to live in our country, to be able to live in freedom and enjoy sporting events and be part of a University community. What a wonderful family I have. Thinking about how many have died and suffered for our freedoms. Just so thankful.
I am out on this conversation, take all the lib terms to dismiss this, and have the nerve to ask someone who has had family impacted by war and who has a deep love for this country, and ask how other then being offended has this impacted me?
It offended me enough to watch only 16 quarters of NFL football last year and probably none this next year. Offended me enough I hope revenue suffers and player contracts go down. That flag and this country means a whole bunch to me, NFL
players picked the wrong way to protest. You evidently will never understand that, and I am not out to change your mind. I see zero reasons to place Kaepernick’s feelings ahead of mine on the morality scale or any other scale when he and the player’s union could have done a professional public service announcement and not insulted millions and those who fought and died for this country.
They intended to offend people to grab attention, pretty stupid way to make your point despite the fact no one knew what his point was when he did it other then what a disrespectful individual. He certainly has not offered a solution other then to now whine about being black balled and failing to take account of his own actions.
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Lead the way Hans and start a new thread. BTW I took the grandkids to see your new
movie this week-end.
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Just some minor observations:
Funny, while you are technically correct, you have to admit that its interesting that the media was strong to support the firing of Roseanne for voiceing her position and has criticized any and all (including Jimmy Kimmel) who have said anything in her defense, yet ESPN has spent multiple hours of talk-show fodder criticizing the NFL for its new 'censorship' policy. I guess we don't care if society censures one side while celebrating the other. Free-speach my ass.
I don't attribute ANYTHING Roseanne said on the show to her. Those are lines written by writers who are trying to portray a character. I would hope you recognize the difference between TV character Roseanne and the real life person.
Why is this? Do you object when we label Roseanne's comments as racist? How about Samantha Bee's comments as vile? Not respecting the flag during the national anthem and/or the pledge of allegiance IS unpatriotic. Why is it wrong to label it as such?
Funny, while you are technically correct, you have to admit that its interesting that the media was strong to support the firing of Roseanne for voiceing her position and has criticized any and all (including Jimmy Kimmel) who have said anything in her defense, yet ESPN has spent multiple hours of talk-show fodder criticizing the NFL for its new 'censorship' policy. I guess we don't care if society censures one side while celebrating the other. Free-speach my ass.
I don't attribute ANYTHING Roseanne said on the show to her. Those are lines written by writers who are trying to portray a character. I would hope you recognize the difference between TV character Roseanne and the real life person.
Why is this? Do you object when we label Roseanne's comments as racist? How about Samantha Bee's comments as vile? Not respecting the flag during the national anthem and/or the pledge of allegiance IS unpatriotic. Why is it wrong to label it as such?
He is unpatriotic and he is disrespectful (although the latter has more to do with socks with Pigs in police uniforms than the kneeling). Never claimed he is unAmerican.
It doesn't. But by that criteria, how much of anything actually impacts you. Are you personally affected because OSU lost to Stetson on Sunday? How about losing to OU? That said, I have zero respect for anyone who can't even symbolically support a country while living in and enjoying the fruits of the freedoms provided by those who live (and have died) serving under that flag. If you can't respect the flag, then frankly GTFO and go to a country that you can support. But that's just one man's perspective.
Read this morning that originally the Eagles turned in a list of players that were going to come and it was quite lengthy. Then a few days later trimmed the list and it was only a few were going to come. Why waste the time!
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-disinvites-eagles-nfl-national-anthem-nightmare-2018-6
Plus like it or not 2 bits, this is a political winner for Trump and the midterms. People are sick of the pro-athletes whining about doing something like standing for the National Anthem, but having no problem saddling cities with bonds for new stadiums and leaving their current team for another team for a few dollars more.
If the athletes were serious about "change" they would donate 10% of their earning to create economic zones for inner cities, provide full scholarships to college and on and on. Instead they whine about social injustice (maybe they should protest in Portland), yet not one of them can articulate exactly what those injustices are and what should be done. With regards to the pro football group, and typical of the multimillionaire players, they want the owners to pay for the social injustice fixes, they don't want to dump boat loads of their own money into a better system. Screw them!
Oh and one last question....if the ex-rodent in chief had been pissed about the same issue do you think the players would have continued to do it and or tweet their outrage? They don't like Trump because he won't kiss their over privileged asses, plain and simple.
I said he isn't unpatriotic simply because he chooses to protest. Some of the most patriotic Americans choose to protest sometimes.
And it is your opinion that he used the wrong venue, but one could argue that he has been rather successful in getting out his message.of protest by choosing the venue he chose.
Sure Trump has a right to his opinion, but he is the President. He is suppose to uphold and protect the freedoms we cherish in this country, not attack or belittle them. A President shouldn't also label some Americans as unAmerican or unpatriotic simply because they don't do what he wants or disagrees with him.
And I had a grandfather who fought in WW2 on the islands in the Pacific. He fought under the same flag and received a purple heart. My grandfather was also very active in a veterans organization and I grew up surrounded by WW2, Korea, and Vietnam veterans. I have immense respect for veterans and their contributions. But I don't believe we respect any veteran when we label those who choose to exercise their rights as unpatriotic or unAmerican.
The flag is a symbol of what we believe in as a nation. One of those beliefs is the right to protest, which is what some NFL players chose to do. They were being American when they did so, rather you agree with them or not.
No, I don't think all patriotism is faux. Forced ritual is faux patriotism though. And labeling others as unpatriotic or unAmerican is also faux patriotism.
If someone chooses to stand for the national anthem and is not forced to, that is patriotism. If someone chooses to take a knee to protest an injustice during the national anthem, that is patriotism too.
Like you, I grew up in an environment of respecting the flag and loving our country. But again, the flag is a symbol of the ideals we believe in as a country. We respect it by honoring those ideals.
With all due respect, you aren't the only one who has family impacted by war and who has a deep love for this country.
A deep love for this country though doesn't mean one should attack others who engages in the rights this country seeks to uphold. How can one love this country but attack the very fabric of what this country stands for? That makes no sense.
And btw, I understand you were offended. Protest usually offends the comfortable. That is the point of protest and that is why great Americans have engaged in it throughout our history.
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