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Pray for the people that got shot praying.

The key to understanding the Second Amendment is to understand the Framers conception of militias and the roles militias played during their time (including the role they played in protecting against an overpowering state).
Yep, it is the key. The militia was everyone but the government. That's well documented. Surely you have something besides modern commentary to support your position. Post it. I've seen plenty of references on here regarding the "militia" as if the right to bear arms was dependent on being a member in a sanctioned armed force, but not even a single historical reference to support it.

It is comical that anyone would think that the Second Amendment was a collective right buried in a document that purposely forbade the federal government from infringing on individual rights. Is the 1st Amendment meant as a collective right as well? How about the 4th? See the pattern? And furthermore, the Bill of Rights didn't create a single right. It simply prohibits the federal government from infringing on existing natural rights.
 
Yes I did and yes it does.

Again, it doesn't. You completely misrepresented the book. But I don't know you won't admit it, so moving on...

Well regulated didn't mean what you think it meant.

I know what "well-regulated" militia means, do you?

Here's a simple quote for you.

  • "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
    — George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788

Yes, and here is another one that goes right along with that exact thinking...

"That a well-regulated Militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free State; that Standing Armies, in times of peace, should be avoided, as dangers to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and govern by, the civil power." - VIrginia Declaration of Rights, 1776

His book is more than the first few pages. Is that all you read?

Nope, I simply quoted from the second and third page of the Introduction to show how quickly your claim could be proven wrong.
 
What a fuking clown show some of this thread is.

The reason there are shootings is because people as dumb as you clowns live and walk amongst us.
 
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The militia was everyone but the government. That's well documented.

Essentially, yes. Militias were drawn from the citizenry (in both England and the colonies) and comprised largely of yeoman farmers. Militia service was an expectation for men from ages 16 to 60. Men had to join a militia company, train, and they were expected to have a gun and bring it to the training. It was a duty to have a gun to serve in the Militia. And this is part of the context of the Second Amendment.

It is comical that anyone would think that the Second Amendment was a collective right buried in a document that purposely forbade the federal government from infringing on individual rights.

Again, it deals with both. An individual right to own a gun to fulfill the duty that men had to serve in the Militia (the collective aspect). This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered, as many on the right claim today.
 
I know what "well-regulated" militia means, do you?
Yep, well regulated meant well trained. Militia referred to the whole of the people. That quote you provided only supports your position if you attempt to apply the modern definition of militia to the period. That's a usual lefty tactic. Easy to debunk with all of the references to individual ownership, a few of which I supplied above. And even easier to debunk if you look at the post Constitutional drafting and ratification period. I hope you aren't going into constitutional law like the Kenyan goat herder did.

Again, do you have a reference that specifies that ownership of arms is limited to a member of a government sanctioned military? It should be real easy to provide one. The one you provided above, even assuming your modern definition of militia is remotely correct, doesn't establish that exclusion. In fact it says "body of the people," not people who are members of a sanctioned military force, or even anything remotely similar.

Here's some historical perspective on interpretation of the Constitution from a guy who was actually there.

"On every question of construction let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning can be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one which was passed."

Thomas Jefferson

Now, for yet another reference to individual ownership and the "militia."

Who are the militia? are they not ourselves. Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American...The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.

Tench Coxe

Again, provide just one reference to limiting arms to those that are part of a sanctioned government force. Just one.

And I noticed you dodged on the individual vs collective right part of the Bill of Rights. If "right of the people" is collective in the 2nd Amendment, then it must be collective in the 1st, 4th, 9th, and 10th, and thus by default be the theme for the Bill of Rights. How stupid does that sound? Lemme guess, it makes sense to you that a collective right was part of a document about individual rights. If you say yes, I won't be surprised.
 
This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered, as many on the right claim today.
Hahahahaha! Clintoon, you've achieved new heights of stupidity today. There's not a single law student on earth that would type the above, especially one who was selected to a prestigious internship.

Let's apply the above stupidity to the rest of the Bill of Rights. This should be awesome.
 
Essentially, yes. Militias were drawn from the citizenry (in both England and the colonies) and comprised largely of yeoman farmers. Militia service was an expectation for men from ages 16 to 60. Men had to join a militia company, train, and they were expected to have a gun and bring it to the training. It was a duty to have a gun to serve in the Militia. And this is part of the context of the Second Amendment.



Again, it deals with both. An individual right to own a gun to fulfill the duty that men had to serve in the Militia (the collective aspect). This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered, as many on the right claim today.
And not a single historical reference to support your bullshit. I'm so surprised.
 
This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered, as many on the right claim today.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This individual right was never meant to be unfettered...
 
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered
 
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered
 
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered
 
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."

This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered
 
"In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law."

This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered
 
That quote you provided only supports your position if you attempt to apply the modern definition of militia to the period.

Before I continue this discussion with you, i want to make sure we are on the same page. What do you perceive my position to be on this issue that you are arguing so hard against?
 
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered
 
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered
 
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

This individual right though was never meant to be unfettered
 
There's not a single law student on earth that would type the above, especially one who was selected to a prestigious internship.

That's interesting considering that a Supreme Court Justice (Warren Berger) said exactly that. And Berger was a conservative jurist!
 
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This individual right was never meant to be unfettered...

These rights are not unfettered. You can't yell fire in a theater and claim its protected by your right to freedom of speech. The press can be sued and a group can be required to get a permit to assemble. And so on.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

lol, again these rights are not unfettered either. If you ever set in a Criminal Procedure course in law school you would know this after the second class! Heck, I would think just a causal study of Fourth Amendment jurisprudence would reveal this too.

I could also quote the other posts you made, but suffice to say, all of our rights are constrained or restrained in some sense (some more than others). You just wasted a lot of time making yourself look foolish.
 
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These rights are not unfettered. You can't yell fire in a theater and claim its protected by your right to freedom of speech. The press can be sued and a group can be required to get a permit to assemble. And so on.



lol, again these rights are not unfettered either. If you ever set in a Criminal Procedure course in law school you would know this after the second class! Heck, I think just a causal study of 4th Amendment jurisprudence would reveal this too.

I could also quote the other posts you made, but suffice to say, all of our rights are constrained or restrained in some sense (some more than others). You just wasted a lot of time making yourself look foolish.
Uh huh. Nice try, but you fall flat in failure again. Can't yell fire in a theater is an example of restriction of the 1st Amendment? Surely you jest. The press can be sued? Duh. A group can be required to get a local permit for a protest? That's not prohibited by the 1st Amendment. After all, the Bill of Rights pertains to the federal government. Any shitty law student would know this.

Now, only one reference supporting the restriction of arms ownership to members of a government sanctioned body is all that is required to redeem yourself. Surely a smart lawyer wanna be like you won't fail. I'm not going to hold my breath though. You've been nothing but disappointment every time you post.
 
A group can be required to get a local permit for a protest? That's not prohibited by the 1st Amendment,

No, but it is a restraint on your right to assemble. You can be denied a permit, hence denied the right to assemble in this country. Just as all the other rights you went on about also have constraints and restraints place upon them.

You are just flat out wrong on this if you are arguing otherwise.

After all, the Bill of Rights pertains to the federal government. Any shitty law student would know this.

And they are fully or partially incorporated to the states by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The only Amendment that has not been incorporated in some manner is the Third Amendment

Keep on going Meds, I'm having a good laugh.:cool:
 
No, but it is a restraint on your right to assemble. You can be denied a permit, hence denied the right to assemble in this country. Just as all the other rights you went on about also have constraints and restraints place upon them.

You are just flat out wrong on this if you are arguing otherwise.



And they are incorporated to the states by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Keep on going Meds, I'm having a good laugh.:cool:
And still not a single historical reference to support your position. Shocking.
 
And still not a single historical reference to support your position.

I asked you a question that you never answered. I'm more than glad to continue discussing the historical context of the Second Amendment with you, but again, I ask just for a simple answer to this...

What do you perceive my position to be on this issue that you are arguing so hard against?
 
I asked you a question that you never answered. I'm more than glad to continue discussing the historical context of the Second Amendment with you, but again, I ask just for a simple answer to this...
Translated "I don't have anything."

If you did, you'd have posted it en masse.
 
Translated "I don't have anything."

If you did, you'd have posted it en masse.

No, it means what it says.

Im just trying to make sure we are on the same page and you understand what my actual position is before we proceed. So again, what is my position you are arguing against?
 
I must say, GL, that it is more than a little insulting to be told I am “huffing and puffing,” “ranting and raving,” because I “don’t care” that people are being killed in mass shootings. Insult on top of straw man. Not your finest argumentative hour. I was attempting to have a civil discourse.

Here’s how I see it. You and I have diametrically opposed viewpoints on this issue. I call for no “governmental solution,” no “government policy,” no government infringement of a right that is supposed to be protected by the government. If we’re going to have a government (as an anarchist I don’t want one, so I’m already behind most peoples’ eight ball), then its only proper function is to protect individual rights. Since I don’t advocate any policy it stands to reason I am under no obligation to explain a policy I don’t advocate. Agreed?

You, on the other hand, DO advocate a policy, pointing to several things the government should do to bring an end to the carnage. Ban automatic rifles, have a national registry, etc. etc. So it is incumbent on you to be specific. If you want the American public to get behind your proposal you need to explain in great detail exactly what you are calling for, and exactly what you expect to be the results of your proposal. Calling for a limit on the number of guns an individual may own, for example, is not good enough. How many guns do you propose, and why that number, and what will that accomplish? What is the purpose of a national gun registry? How will that stop the mayhem? All of those points you made need to be completely explained. Why 24 hours? What’s the punishment? Define exactly what you mean by mental illness. Why that definition? Who gets to say so and so is mentally ill? Does the stigma last forever, or can the crazy person be cured? Who gets to say when he’s safe? Why that person? What if he makes a mistake and calls a person mentally ill if he’s not? Is there a punishment for the person that made the mistake? What would be his punishment?

This is just a tiny sampling of the questions you should have to answer before your policies should be enacted into law. And if you answer all the questions sufficiently and your policy is made the law of the land, what is your “cure” if the policy doesn’t work? More of the same? Or repeal? More of the same, why would you want even more of a policy that has proven to be ineffective? Are you able to see that it might lead to tyranny? Would your side know when to put on the brakes, or how, if the government became abusive even in your eyes?

I don’t think I’m ranting or raving. I think I’m asking you to answer legitimate questions. You should know the answers before you blindly lead this country into a situation that only a revolution can solve.
 
No, it means what it says.

Im just trying to make sure we are on the same page and you understand what my actual position is before we proceed. So again, what is my position you are arguing against?
A single quote in support of the restriction of arms to members of a government sanctioned military force is all that is needed. You're struggling with a basic concept. Why? It should be very easy to post a single quote supporting your position. You've produced nothing yet.

Come on counselor wanna be. This isn't rocket surgery.
 
I must say, GL, that it is more than a little insulting to be told I am “huffing and puffing,” “ranting and raving,” because I “don’t care” that people are being killed in mass shootings. Insult on top of straw man. Not your finest argumentative hour. I was attempting to have a civil discourse.

Just calling it like I see it Ponca. And I am all for having a civil discourse, but I and many others are growing tired of hearing this "till my last breath" nonsense as more and more Americans die and are injured in these shootings (as well as other gun violence).

Here’s how I see it. You and I have diametrically opposed viewpoints on this issue.

Yes, this is true. And honestly, is there anything I'm going to say on this board to change your point of view? Is there any amount of specifics that I can give that will change your point of view on this?

We both know the answer is no. You have already stated as much. So what is the point Ponca? You are set in your ways and "till your last breath" you are going to defend the position you have embraced.

I wish I could convince you but you don't want to be convinced.

You should know the answers before you blindly lead this country into a situation that only a revolution can solve.

The answers are known and the policy proposals are there for you to look at and have your questions answers. Again though, it doesn't make any difference. You are always going to oppose gun control, even if it is successful (as you posted). You don't want to be convinced. You want to huff and puff against any proposal, continuously demand more "specifics," and then return back to your "last breath" position.

We will eventually have meaningful gun control in this country. I believe your extreme position will eventually be thrown to the ash heap of history. Progress on this will come. I just pray it happens sooner rather than later.
 
Just calling it like I see it Ponca. And I am all for having a civil discourse, but I and many others are growing tired of hearing this "till my last breath" nonsense as more and more Americans die and are injured in these shootings (as well as other gun violence).



Yes, this is true. And honestly, is there anything I'm going to say on this board to change your point of view? Is there any amount of specifics that I can give that will change your point of view on this?

We both know the answer is no. You have already stated as much. So what is the point Ponca? You are set in your ways and "till your last breath" you are going to defend the position you have embraced.

I wish I could convince you but you don't want to be convinced.



The answers are known and the policy proposals are there for you to look at and have your questions answers. Again though, it doesn't make any difference. You are always going to oppose gun control, even if it is successful (as you posted). You don't want to be convinced. You want to huff and puff against any proposal, continuously demand more "specifics," and then return back to your "last breath" position.

We will eventually have meaningful gun control in this country. I believe your extreme position will eventually be thrown to the ash heap of history. Progress on this will come. I just pray it happens sooner rather than later.
1ccd4a4.jpg
 
It should be very easy to post a single quote supporting your position.

You talk about how easy it is for others to answer your simple questions but you hardly ever answer someone else's simple questions. You wouldn't answer sy's on this thread and now you can't answer mine. You have been all over the place with your posts tonight (while making incorrect assertions). I'm just trying to focus the discussion on to one topic.

So again, what position of mine are you arguing against and want clarification about?
 
Dumbass attempt to quote a poster...

Still not a single quote to support your position. Not one. It shouldn't be this difficult if you had even one reference to post.

Even your new identity, my_2cents, has nothing to offer. Prove me wrong, idiot. Clintoon, you're a loser.
 
Just calling it like I see it Ponca. And I am all for having a civil discourse, but I and many others are growing tired of hearing this "till my last breath" nonsense as more and more Americans die and are injured in these shootings (as well as other gun violence).



Yes, this is true. And honestly, is there anything I'm going to say on this board to change your point of view? Is there any amount of specifics that I can give that will change your point of view on this?

We both know the answer is no. You have already stated as much. So what is the point Ponca? You are set in your ways and "till your last breath" you are going to defend the position you have embraced.

I wish I could convince you but you don't want to be convinced.



The answers are known and the policy proposals are there for you to look at and have your questions answers. Again though, it doesn't make any difference. You are always going to oppose gun control, even if it is successful (as you posted). You don't want to be convinced. You want to huff and puff against any proposal, continuously demand more "specifics," and then return back to your "last breath" position.

We will eventually have meaningful gun control in this country. I believe your extreme position will eventually be thrown to the ash heap of history. Progress on this will come. I just pray it happens sooner rather than later.

You are right,GL, I am no more interested in government solutions (as if there are such things) as you seem to be in liberty. What you call progress in gun control is really eventual regress into the world of totalitarian terrorism. Sadly for me I suspect you are right, that your side will get the upper hand, at which point we can kiss freedom goodby. But I will oppose the “progress to collective tyranny” to my last breath.
 
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That's interesting considering that a Supreme Court Justice (Warren Berger) said exactly that. And Berger was a conservative jurist!

In fact, Scalia said it wasn't unfettered.

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.26

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment ’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

I don't want to get in the middle of your guys' pissing match because:

1. From a legal perspective the totality of the issue is more nuanced than either one of your two positions, IMO;

and more importantly,

2. I've been drinking good Eastern Oklahoma moonshine at an Agents' conference at Western Hills State Lodge for the past few hours and I'm just not up to it right now.

On the issue of the present state of the law of the 2nd Amendment re: being fettered or unfettered, even the most conservative SCOTUS Justice in 2nd Amendment recognizes and affirms it is fettered....to a point.
 
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Dumbass attempt to quote a poster...

What, you upset that more than one poster recognizes your nonsense for what it is?

You duck, dodge, and deflect almost anytime you are asked a direct question. But then demand others answer your direct questions.

Still not a single quote to support your position. Not one.

And still not a single answer from you to the simple question I asked you.

Go ahead, post the lame donkey picture again. Anything to duck, dodge, or deflect.
 
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In fact, Scalia said it wasn't unfettered.

Yep.

1. From a legal perspective the totality of the issue is more nuanced than either one of your two positions, IMO

I completely agree you that the totality of this issue is more nuanced. Indeed, it is very nuanced. Which is what I was trying to get at and also why I was trying to determine if Meds understood my position correctly.

2. I've been drinking good Eastern Oklahoma moonshine at an Agents' conference at Western Hills State Lodge for the past few hours and I'm just not up to it right now.

lol, yeah I'm sure you aren't up to it right now. I'm suprised you were able to make the post you did!

On the issue of the present state of the law of the 2nd Amendment re: being fettered or unfettered, even the most conservative SCOTUS Justice in 2nd Amendment recognizes and affirms it is fettered....to a point.

Yep.
 
What, you upset that more than one poster recognizes your bull**** for what it is?

You duck, dodge, and deflect almost anytime you are asked a direct question. But then demand others answer your direct questions.



And still not a single answer from you to the simple question I asked you.

Go ahead, post the lame donkey picture again. Anything to duck, dodge, or deflect.
Geezus Clintoon. Even you have access to Google. I've seen your Twitter.

Just one quote to support your argument. Not 20. Or 5. Just one. Your continued deflection and refusal to address a simple question speaks volumes about your ability. Speaks volumes about your knowledge as a wanna be attorney. Do I have to explain that to you too? Just one quote. This shouldn't be be this difficult. Unless...
 
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