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OK, you guys want to talk "issues" and not distractions then how about Afghanistan?

H

hollywood

MegaPoke is insane
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16 yrs in and now, after 6 solid years of Trump talking about how we needed to pull our troops out of there and how Obama was messing it all up and despite his campaign promises, here we go again.

Sure sounds like to me that he's just done a complete and utter flip-flop on the entire thing.

Wasn't his election that you guys said would change everything about US intervention around the world? Couldn't be too happy about this development if what the majority of you were saying then was true.
 
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I hope this is the president giving the military one last chance to wrap this thing up and if they cannot then we need to get out. Of course, I don't even know that anyone could give you a picture of what victory looks like in Afghanistan.
 
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hollywood said:
16 yrs in and now, after 6 solid years of Trump talking about how we needed to pull our troops out of there and how Obama was messing it all up and despite his campaign promises, here we go again.

Sure sounds like to me that he's just done a complete and utter flip-flop on the entire thing.

Wasn't his election that you guys said would change everything about US intervention around the world? Couldn't be too happy about this development if what the majority of you were saying then was true.
Click to expand...

Thank you McMaster, thank you neocons that infiltrated and are taking over his admin, thank you main stream media for wanting neocon establishment takeover, thank you useful idiots who think the world is ending because Trump, thank Trump for being a retard and listening to these shit ass, war profiteering, evil, money whores who think it's okay to guard opium fields, and thank you CIA for being a major player in the drug trade. I would go on but what's the point.

Our government is corrupt beyond belief. It's incredibly sad.
 
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What's the ROI on the deployment?
*Assumed no unnecessary fighting.
*Assumed limited in duration to set the table to leave without looking back.
 
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It sucks. But politicians lie. And if there is a better option next time I'll vote that way.
 
Think it is a horrible move and not happy about it. As the British and The Russians have discovered before we will that country is a backwards ass black hole and we have no business trying to change that. No 4,000 troops is going to change the dynamic either. Go tactical nukes and old testament or go home.
 
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I'm gonna take Trump at his word on this one.

That he talked to his Generals. That they advised him that immediate pull out was the worst of the available bad options (I personally don't believe there are any good options at this point), and that he is following their advice.

So I'm gonna go with "changed his mind upon receiving expert advice" over "complete and utter flip flop".
 
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CowboyJD said:
I'm gonna take Trump at his word on this one.

That he talked to his Generals. That they advised him that immediate pull out was the worst of the available bad options (I personally don't believe there are any good options at this point), and that he is following their advice.

So I'm gonna go with "changed his mind upon receiving expert advice" over "complete and utter flip flop".
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I forget the source, but it seems like about a month ago I heard where the president expressed extreme disappointment in the progress in Afghanistan with his generals. I assume his thinking is either get it done or come home. That's why my hope is this is a one last chance affair.
 
PS, his detractors can call a pullout a military defeat all they want, and they just might be right, but it is a win for the United States to get the hell out of there and come home with our people and our resources. I hope we see that sooner rather than later.
 
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Honest question: Why not pull out? Why is pulling out such a bad alternative? Because we dont' want the taliban to take it back over and let ISIS or someone in?

There for 16 years and the goal isn't accomplished? Smells like a classic case of mission creep. I thought the stated reason of going in was to catch and punish OBL and the regime that protected him.

Netflix has a movie with Brad PItt playing a general in Afghanistan -- it really resonates right now. Good movie, too.
 
syskatine said:
Honest question: Why not pull out? Why is pulling out such a bad alternative? Because we dont' want the taliban to take it back over and let ISIS or someone in?

There for 16 years and the goal isn't accomplished? Smells like a classic case of mission creep. I thought the stated reason of going in was to catch and punish OBL and the regime that protected him.

Netflix has a movie with Brad PItt playing a general in Afghanistan -- it really resonates right now. Good movie, too.
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Wish we would pull out yesterday.
 
hollywood said:
16 yrs in and now, after 6 solid years of Trump talking about how we needed to pull our troops out of there and how Obama was messing it all up and despite his campaign promises, here we go again.

Sure sounds like to me that he's just done a complete and utter flip-flop on the entire thing.

Wasn't his election that you guys said would change everything about US intervention around the world? Couldn't be too happy about this development if what the majority of you were saying then was true.
Click to expand...

It was a flip flop and I'm not happy about continuing the Bush/Obama doctrine.
 
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Screen-Shot-2017-08-22-at-9.02.28-AM-600x225.png
 
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ThorOdinson13 said:
Thank you McMaster, thank you neocons that infiltrated and are taking over his admin, thank you main stream media for wanting neocon establishment takeover, thank you useful idiots who think the world is ending because Trump, thank Trump for being a retard and listening to these shit ass, war profiteering, evil, money whores who think it's okay to guard opium fields, and thank you CIA for being a major player in the drug trade. I would go on but what's the point.

Our government is corrupt beyond belief. It's incredibly sad.
Click to expand...

I'm really just running out of gas on giving a shit right now. Not real optimistic about the future of the republic in general and most people just want to play team politics while Rome burns.
 
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I wouldn't even know where to start. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't part of the world. The only thing I know for sure is when someone has extreme hatred for someone else their anger overrides their senses.

Do you ignore it and let your enemy grow and become stronger? Or do you try and keep it to a minimum , at best, and lose thousands of lives.
 
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hollywood said:
Sure sounds like to me that he's just done a complete and utter flip-flop on the entire thing.
Click to expand...

He absolutely did. Shall we review??...











It was also funny last night how Trump continue to reference Obama's withdraw from Iraq as being a blunder when at one time, Trump supported Obama's withdraw and even wanted Obama to get out of Iraq faster! Anyone remember this Trump, from 2008??...

"First, I'd get out of Iraq right now. And by the way, I am the greatest hawk who ever lived, a far greater hawk even than Bush. I am the most militant military human being who ever lived. I'd rebuild our military arsenal, and make sure we had the finest weapons in the world. Because countries such as Russia have no respect for us, they laugh at us. Look at what happened in Georgia, a place we were supposed to be protecting." (Donald Trump, British GQ, 2008)
 
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imprimis said:
Many times a candidate doesn't see the realities of the situations until they become the office holder.
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Have to agree. We had a Republican in office for eight years had a Democrat in office for eight years and neither pulled us out. There's obviously something more to it than meets the public eye.
 
CowboyJD said:
I'm gonna take Trump at his word on this one.

That he talked to his Generals. That they advised him that immediate pull out was the worst of the available bad options (I personally don't believe there are any good options at this point), and that he is following their advice.

So I'm gonna go with "changed his mind upon receiving expert advice" over "complete and utter flip flop".
Click to expand...

I can understand how one would want to believe this. And it very well may be the case. Or it may just be that Trump doesn't have a clue what he is doing and at this moment, he is listening to the neocons (which would explain Bannon's exit and Breitbart starting to turn anti-Trump).

I really felt like last night's speech was more of an attempt to change the media's narrative than anything else. Trump really didn't propose anything new in terms of policy.
 
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TPOKE said:
Have to agree. We had a Republican in office for eight years had a Democrat in office for eight years and neither pulled us out. There's obviously something more to it than meets the public eye.
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While I don't disagree that one doesn't see the full picture till they are actually sitting in the Oval Office, I don't think that is why we keep seeing a similar foreign policy.

What is really going on, IMO, is that we keep electing Democrat and Republican Presidents who aren't that much different when it comes to foreign policy. There may be some minor differences, but the over-all approach isn't.
 
TPOKE said:
Have to agree. We had a Republican in office for eight years had a Democrat in office for eight years and neither pulled us out. There's obviously something more to it than meets the public eye.
Click to expand...
Perhaps the reason Obama didn't close Gitmo early on. Some of those prisoners were the evilest of the evil---still are. Even Obama couldn't release them back to the battlefield.
 
GL97 said:
I can understand how one would want to believe this. And it very well may be the case. Or it may just be that Trump doesn't have a clue what he is doing and at this moment, he is listening to the neocons (which would explain Bannon's exit and Breitbart starting to turn anti-Trump).

I really felt like last night's speech was more of an attempt to change the media's narrative than anything else. Trump really didn't propose anything new in terms of policy.
Click to expand...

So it may be the case...or it may not be.

Got it.

Thanks for that.
 
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He listened to his military commanders and looked at the Intel. Here is how that breaks down.

If you pull troops out the Afgan forces in place cannot hold the country. The can hold some cities and towns but they cannot patrol the mountains and borders. As soon as the forces pull out Taliban insurgents will move in and take ground and they will be strengthened. A strengthened Taliban will use that strength to attack US interests in the region and eventually here in the US.

The fight was never finished or allowed to be. The Taliban moved into Kashmir and Peshawar regions. RegionS claimed by India and Pakistan but in reality run by local magistrates. The US was stopped by its inability to finish this fight in a region that if it went into would be a blood bath. Additionaly the US is hampered by Pakistans nuclear ability and any attack in these regions would weaken thier governments ability to hold onto its own nukes. In the end it has similar feel to Japan at the end of WWII in that we can win but at what cost? This is and has been the US Achilles heel since the end of WWII.

So how do you win? It is not really a question of that. We control the area's airspace and without having troops based in Iraq this is the ground you have to hold to threaten Iran. Iran is most likely the real reason we keep troops in Afghan.

Disclaimer: this is simply an educated guess of why you are seeing troops stay in Afgan. It doesnt make it the correct descision but could give you some in-site as to why you keep seeing the same thing over and over again from both parties.

This has been the first real attempt at actual policy and positive discord in some time. Props to OP. Just wanted to try to give some in-site from some one who has been involved with this subject.
 
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Tulsaaggieson said:
He listened to his military commanders and looked at the Intel. Here is how that breaks down.
Click to expand...

So then he was wrong regarding what he originally claimed should take place (and what he campaigned on)? And his assessment regarding Obama not withdrawing from Afghanistan was wrong also?

How about those who voted for him because he said he would get out of Afghanistan?
 
CowboyJD said:
Oh lord, god bless your little heart.

You're trying too hard, son. You're my little tag-along just as much or more than he is.
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lol you are so predictable "JD".

Go ahead, try your hardest not to reply.
 
GL97 said:
So then he was wrong regarding what he originally claimed should take place (and what he campaigned on)? And his assessment regarding Obama not withdrawing from Afghanistan was wrong also?

How about those who voted for him because he said he would get out of Afghanistan?
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I can only answer your questions with some middle of the road answers which I'm sure you were not looking for.

Trump was not right or wrong in this. Same goes for Obama. Both made promises that they couldn't keep.

As far as Trumps's supporters voting for him. The question there would be are there enough single issue voters on Afgan for that to make a difference? The answer is no.
 
Tulsaaggieson said:
Trump was not right or wrong in this. Same goes for Obama. Both made promises that they couldn't keep.
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I understand what you are saying, I don't know if I agree or not though. If either wanted to keep the promise, they could have.

Tulsaaggieson said:
As far as Trumps's supporters voting for him. The question there would be are there enough single issue voters on Afgan for that to make a difference? The answer is no.
Click to expand...

True. However, if Trump starts pursuing a strong neocon foreign policy, you think most of his supporters will be happy about this?
 
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