November 22nd, 1963

[2012Bearcat]

On this day in history, November 22, 1963, John F. Kennedy, 35th president, is assassinated

President John F. Kennedy, the nation's 35th president, was assassinated in Dallas, Texas, on this day in history, Nov. 22, 1963, while riding in a motorcade during a campaign trip.

www.foxnews.com

Government has still refused to fully abide by a 1992 federal law, the President John F Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act, which set 27 October 2017 as the deadline for the government to make public records related to the incident. But when that date came, then president Donald Trump pushed back the release of some records until 2021, citing national security concerns. Last October, Biden signed a memo delaying release again until 15 December this year.

Will Biden put this off again or will we finally see all the documents?

 

[my_2cents]

On this day in history, November 22, 1963, John F. Kennedy, 35th president, is assassinated

President John F. Kennedy, the nation's 35th president, was assassinated in Dallas, Texas, on this day in history, Nov. 22, 1963, while riding in a motorcade during a campaign trip.

www.foxnews.com

Government has still refused to fully abide by a 1992 federal law, the President John F Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act, which set 27 October 2017 as the deadline for the government to make public records related to the incident. But when that date came, then president Donald Trump pushed back the release of some records until 2021, citing national security concerns. Last October, Biden signed a memo delaying release again until 15 December this year.

Will Biden put this off again or will we finally see all the documents?

Actually the government has followed the 1992 federal law. That law allowed the sitting president to block the release of any of the documents after 2017, an exception which both Trump and Biden invoked.

With that said, it appears that around 15,000 documents have yet to be released. Most of these appear to be FBI and CIA documents related to intelligence operations in the 60s and 70s. It is believed these documents include the names of government informants who are still alive. Releasing their names publicly could endanger their safety, and therefore, the CIA and FBI are arguing these documents should remain classified.

Also, members of the review board have stated that they don't know of any documents still unreleased that would point away from the official narrative that Oswald acted alone when he assassinated JFK.

 

[2012Bearcat]

Actually the government has followed the 1992 federal law. That law allowed the sitting president to block the release of any of the documents after 2017, an exception which both Trump and Biden invoked.

With that said, it appears that around 15,000 documents have yet to be released. Most of these appear to be FBI and CIA documents related to intelligence operations in the 60s and 70s. It is believed these documents include the names of government informants who are still alive. Releasing their names publicly could endanger their safety, and therefore, the CIA and FBI are arguing these documents should remain classified.

Also, members of the review board have stated that they don't know of any documents still unreleased that would point away from the official narrative that Oswald acted alone when he assassinated JFK.

Fact remains all the documents have not been released.
My mother was at a conference yesterday that had a guest speaker that is a JKF conspiracy theorist. According to her, he made some interesting points and provided some interesting evidence she had never seen or heard. Not saying anything either way, just think the government's handling of the case led to conspiracy theories and I find it fascinating. Feel free to take it how ever you wish.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

The Warren commission? 😂

 

[my_2cents]

Fact remains all the documents have not been released.

True, but we should be mindful of why they haven't been released. Both Trump and Biden, as President, have to take into consideration national security matters. Releasing publicly names of government informants who are still alive relates to national security.

My mother was at a conference yesterday that had a guest speaker that is a JKF conspiracy theorist. According to her, he made some interesting points and provided some interesting evidence she had never seen or heard. Not saying anything either way, just think the government's handling of the case led to conspiracy theories and I find it fascinating. Feel free to take it how ever you wish.

One has to be careful with JFK conspiracy theorists. A lot of what they repeat has been proven to be false but they keep repeating it. However, some concerns they draw attention to are valid. For example, Oliver Stone's JFK movie was filled with errors and falsehoods. Lots of them. But every now and then, he would put forth a legitimate concern.

Based upon my study of all this, I think it is very possible that Oswald did act alone when he assassinated the President. There is a lot of evidence supporting this. With that said, I think there is also the possibility that members of the Mafia (Carlos Marcelo, Santo Trafficante, and Sam Giancana) conspired to assassination Kennedy, with or without the help of rogue intelligence assets. Or that Oswald might have been a pawn of rogue intelligence assets

If there was a government cover-up, it was most likely to shield knowledge of how the intelligence community was working with the Mafia to get rid of Castro and to protect Kennedy's public reputation.

But, thanks to Jack Ruby, we probably will never know for sure.

 

[2012Bearcat]

You support government covering up potential crimes so that people do not have to answer for them while they are alive? Sorry but I disagree government shouldn’t be allowed to keep things like that from the American people. Anyone involved would be well into their 70, 80s and maybe 90’s by now. Give us the info

 

[my_2cents]

You support government covering up potential crimes so that people do not have to answer for them while they are alive?

What crimes is the government covering up?

Anyone involved would be well into their 70, 80s and maybe 90’s by now. Give us the info

Why does it matter how old the informants are? They still deserve protection, regardless of their age.

I personally believe we will eventually get all the documents, however, I can fully understand why both Trump and Biden made these decisions.

 

[GunsOfFrankEaton]

Fact remains all the documents have not been released.
My mother was at a conference yesterday that had a guest speaker that is a JKF conspiracy theorist. According to her, he made some interesting points and provided some interesting evidence she had never seen or heard. Not saying anything either way, just think the government's handling of the case led to conspiracy theories and I find it fascinating. Feel free to take it how ever you wish.

Anyone who believes Jack Ruby shot Oswald because the assassin killed his beloved President is woefully ignorant of how the world operates.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

What crimes are the government covering up?


Why does it matter how old the informants are? They still deserve protection, regardless of their age.

I personally believe we will eventually get all the documents, however, I can fully understand why both Trump and Biden made these decisions.

You are a piece of work.

 

[my_2cents]

Anyone who believes Jack Ruby shot Oswald because the assassin killed his beloved President is woefully ignorant of how the world operates.

If Ruby planned to shoot Oswald when he did, he sure wasn't worried about the timing of Oswald's transfer or a number of other aspects surrounding the shooting of Oswald.

Ruby had ample opportunity to shoot Oswald on both the 22nd and 23rd, but he didn't. Now some claim he was stalking Oswald to kill him, which if true, would still beg the question of why he waited till the 24th? Why not shoot Oswald the first opportunity he had?

On top of this, on the 24th, at the time when Oswald was scheduled to be transferred, Ruby was sitting in his apartment having coffee. He gets a call (10:19 AM) from one of his dancers requesting money. Only then does Ruby get dressed and drive downtown to the Western Union (which was close to the police station). Ruby wired one of his dancers $25 at 11:17 AM. This was an hour and 17 minutes after the police were scheduled to transfer Oswald. Why was Ruby at home and then wiring money to one of his dancers when he should have been waiting on Oswald's transfer if he was planning on killing Oswald as instructed?

Also, Ruby left his favorite dog in the car. Everyone who knew Ruby said he loved and pampered his dogs. Why would Ruby have brought his beloved dog with him downtown and left the dog in the car if he was planning on taking out Oswald that morning?

Had Oswald's last session of questioning not gone longer than expected and had Oswald not made a last minute decision to change clothes, Ruby would not have been present in the garage to shoot Oswald. Their paths would never have crossed that day.

 

[OKSTATE1]

I did an informative report on the JFK assassination my Senior in HS - 1979. At this time not near the assassination conspiracy stuff was out there. No internet search. Library research, old school. I have a fully hard copy of the Warren Commission Report and I read it front to back in 1979.

I was young, I went in to do this with a real open mind, really did not know much about it, I was not political at all at that age. For whatever reason I found it fascinating and really spent time on it, it became a really fun assignment. I got an A+ and my teacher and classmates had so many other questions for me after I finished, even in the next class the next day.

Here is until this day, what I believe to be the greatest indicator of a federal government cover up in the assassination of JFK, and it all has to do with law, military command, and following orders.

1. The body never should have left Dallas, once the body leaves the state, you lose chain of custody over evidence and his body was evidence, the best forensic evidence they had. My understanding is that it was illegal to remove the body out of Dallas and to not have the body go to the local coroner for an autopsy. They forced his body out, there was a confrontation between local and fed authorities at the hospital over jurisdiction.

2. Possibly by accident, the car he was shot in was wiped down to wipe up the blood, splatter, and brains. Again, destroyed forensic evidence. It was said the SS did this so the media would not get those pictures.

3. The body was taken to Bethesda Military Hospital (BMH), now the Walter Reed National Military Center. At the time, possibly the best forensic pathologist in the country was at BMH, and he held a high military rank.

4. The top ranking forensic pathologist did not perform the autopsy. It was given to a more junior forensic pathologist, why? Because he would not hold a high military rank and would have to follow orders. Many people were present during the autopsy, many of them military officials.

5. The original autopsy was so poor, they did not even document the wound on the back of the neck. They attributed the hole in the front of his neck to the tracheotomy. When they found the bullet in the hospital gurney the president was in, they had a problem. They had to figure out what hole that bullet made. That is when they went back and looked at his body again and documented the hole in the back of the neck. The trach was needed to try to save his life, but also hurt forensics. Bullet exit wounds are larger than entry wounds. So, they never could determine conclusively the direction the shot was fired on the neck wound.

Now, there could be 100 reasons for a cover up. You want to get wild? What if Russia really did kill him? Is that WW3? Nuclear war? The list as to the why is really long, most have read them.

So, I have no doubt there was cover up by the government and it goes past the lazy excuse of revealing sources and methods. And you telling me not having the truth on the assassination to the American people is off-set by revealing sources and methods? 60 years later? The assassination of a sitting American President? BTW - We put people in the witness protection program all the time. The why is the real question and I don't think we will ever know.

 

[my_2cents]

1. The body never should have left Dallas, once the body leaves the state, you lose chain of custody over evidence and his body was evidence, the best forensic evidence they had. My understanding is that it was illegal to remove the body out of Dallas and to not have the body go to the local coroner for an autopsy. They forced his body out, there was a confrontation between local and fed authorities at the hospital over jurisdiction.

You are absolutely right. The body should never have left Dallas. According to the law at the time, the autopsy should have been conducted in Texas. Earl Rose, who was the Dallas medical examiner at the time, insisted the body remain in Dallas for the autopsy to occur. A heated exchange took place (Rose literally tried to block the casket from being removed) when Rose tried to exert his legal authority.

However, here is where the Kennedy family and those loyal to them come into play. Jackie Kennedy did not want to stay in Texas and wanted to leave. But she was not going to leave without the body. LBJ wasn't going to leave without Jackie. And the secret service members along with Kennedy's closest aides wanted to leave Texas and have the autopsy done in Washington. They got their way. Rose backed down and yes, the body was essentially stolen out of Texas.

For the rest of his life Earl Rose argued that a lot of the conspiracy theories we have today would not have gained much traction had he been allowed to do his job.

3. The body was taken to Bethesda Military Hospital (BMH), now the Walter Reed National Military Center. At the time, possibly the best forensic pathologist in the country was at BMH, and he held a high military rank.

The body went to Bethesda Naval Hospital at the request of Jackie Kennedy. Robert Kennedy backed her up on this. JFK had been a naval officer and Jackie decided on the flight back to Washington that is where she wanted the body to go. The Kennedys would have known that by doing this, military doctors would play a role in the autopsy.

So the Kennedy people played key roles in both of these decisions. If one wants to contribute these decisions to a government cover-up, then one has to include the Kennedy family/aides as part of the cover-up.

 

[my_2cents]

3. The body was taken to Bethesda Military Hospital (BMH), now the Walter Reed National Military Center. At the time, possibly the best forensic pathologist in the country was at BMH, and he held a high military rank.

4. The top ranking forensic pathologist did not perform the autopsy. It was given to a more junior forensic pathologist, why? Because he would not hold a high military rank and would have to follow orders. Many people were present during the autopsy, many of them military officials.

It is important to note that the two pathologists, Dr. James J. Humes and Dr. J. Thornton Boswell, denied there had been any interference with the body by military or political officials in later interviews.

Dr. Humes even stated in 1992 the following: "In 1963, we proved at the autopsy table that President Kennedy was struck from above and behind by the fatal shot. I am tired of being beaten up on by people who are supremely ignorant of the scientific facts of the President's death."

 

[my_2cents]

5. The original autopsy was so poor, they did not even document the wound on the back of the neck. They attributed the hole in the front of his neck to the tracheotomy. When they found the bullet in the hospital gurney the president was in, they had a problem. They had to figure out what hole that bullet made. That is when they went back and looked at his body again and documented the hole in the back of the neck. The trach was needed to try to save his life, but also hurt forensics. Bullet exit wounds are larger than entry wounds. So, they never could determine conclusively the direction the shot was fired on the neck wound.

The confusion over the throat wound is another reason the autopsy should been conducted in Texas.

According to later interviews, the doctors performing the autopsy stated they made a mistake by not speaking with doctors at Parkland Hospital before the autopsy. They only spoke with them the morning after the autopsy. The doctors had no information from the treating doctors at Parkland before the autopsy and this contributed to the confusion over the wound/tracheostomy.

It is also important to note that Dr. Malcom Perry, one of the treating doctors in Dallas who gave Kennedy the tracheotomy, stated on November 22 that the wound in Kennedy's throat looked like an entrance wound. He would later claim that this statement was not meant to be official or definitive. When Dr. Perry testified to the Warren Commission, he stated the throat wound was an exit wound based upon the facts given to him.

And you telling me not having the truth on the assassination to the American people is off-set by revealing sources and methods? 60 years later?

Many (in government and out) would claim the American people have the truth.

There isn't any indication from those on the review board or elsewhere that the remaining unreleased documents are going to change the official narrative that Oswald acted alone when he assassinated JFK.

 

[2012Bearcat]

I find it hard to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald made those shots in that amount of time.

 

[my_2cents]

I find it hard to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald made those shots in that amount of time.

Some agree with you. However, it has been shown in reenactments that he could have done it in the amount of time he had.

Oswald is a puzzling figure. So many questions, both pro and anti-conspiratorial about him. Here is one for you. If Oswald had nothing to do with the shooting, why did he leave his job early (in the middle of the day) at the Texas School Book Depository without telling anyone?

 

[OKSTATE1]

I find it hard to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald made those shots in that amount of time.

They had expert marksman, somewhat recently (last 10 years?), recreate it. These were guys that graded out higher marksman than Oswald did on his military rifle exam. Expert shooters. From first sound waves of the shots thru an open police motorcycle radio recording and film of the shooting, they could precisely tell position of the vehicle at each shot, and the time between them.

They shut down the street. Same type of vehicle. Used the same rifle, not the one he used but the same rifle. Very meticulous re-creation. They allowed the marksman to get acquainted with the rifle, they did not shoot cold.

They all had very poor accuracy and I believe only one time did someone even get off 3 shots in the allotted time, but did not make 2 hits.

What is interesting, there was a traffic light pole that consistently got in the way on the first shot, I think it was the first shot. They showed thru the scope what all this looked like. The first shot should have been the easiest, but everyone felt the first shot missed based on witness testimony. Many thought it was an engine backfire from a motorcycle. The pole is the same pole they had that day, at that time it was still in use.

They got a ladder and found an area that looked like a bullet hit it. They showed the pole, exactly where the cross hairs kept landing when that shot was fired and they found what looked like a bullet strike.

Now, those 3 casings very consistently fell exactly as they found them, and they have pictures of that. On one of the shots, one of the casings typically rolled all the way against the wall, probably the angle and the movement of the shooter and the boxes stacked around the shooter’s nest. And they found one against the wall that day. But it was pretty interesting to see that.

Their conclusion was no way one shooter landed 2 hits, and there had to be a 2nd shooter.

 

[my_2cents]

Their conclusion was no way one shooter landed 2 hits, and there had to be a 2nd shooter.

Can you provide a link to information about this reenactment and its conclusions?

For those interested, here is an one article that discusses, among other things, the timing of the shots and Oswald's shooting ability.

Evidence Still Points to Oswald as President Kennedy’s Assassin

Here is another article that discusses an interesting study that was done using modern blood spatter analysis, artificial human body surrogates, and 3-D computer simulations. This study concluded that the Texas School Book Depository was the most likely origin of the fatal shot.

Tech puts JFK conspiracy theories to rest

 

[OKSTATE1]

Can you provide a link to this reenactment and its conclusions?

For those interested, here is an one article that discusses, among other things, the timing of the shots and Oswald's shooting ability:

Evidence Still Points to Oswald as President Kennedy’s Assassin

Here is another article that discusses an interesting study that was done using modern blood spatter analysis, artificial human body surrogates, and 3-D computer simulations. This study concluded that the Texas School Book Depository was the most likely origin of the fatal shot.

Tech puts JFK conspiracy theories to rest

I saw it I think on the history channel, or discovery one of them. It was one year they had whole week of JFK assassination stuff the week of the anniversary, on cable.

If I find it I will let you know, but not spending a lot of time on it. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just passing on what I watched. I am fine with people drawing their own conclusions based on their own research. Many people are trying to make money off of it.

For me the whole autopsy situation is what stinks the most.

 

[my_2cents]

I saw it I think on the history channel, or discovery one of them. It was one year they had whole week of JFK assassination stuff the week of the anniversary, on cable.

If I find it I will let you know, but not spending a lot of time on it. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just passing on what I watched.

Yes, please do. I'd like to view it. I have never heard of this reenactment and I definitely would like to see what they were doing and the conclusions they arrived at.

btw, I'm just having a discussion too.

For me the whole autopsy situation is what stinks the most.

To me, what stinks the most if one is looking for a conspiracy, is Oswald's actions from the time he joined the Marine Corps till the day of the shooting. Also, the connections Oswald had to other people and groups. Oswald's mother contended to the day she died that Oswald was a government agent, although she really didn't provide much evidence to back this claim up. She was also rather eccentric.

I don't really see much surrounding the autopsy to question once it is understood in its proper context. And as I stated before, if someone wants to point to the body being removed from Texas and the autopsy being conducted at Bethesda Naval Hospital as evidence of a cover-up, then one has to include the Kennedy family and aides as players in the cover-up.

 

[2012Bearcat]

Some agree with you. However, it has been shown in reenactments that he could have done it in the amount of time he had.

Oswald is a puzzling figure. So many questions, both pro and anti-conspiratorial about him. Here is one for you. If Oswald had nothing to do with the shooting, why did he leave his job early (in the middle of the day) at the Texas School Book Depository without telling anyone?

Yea I've seen some of those reenactments and was never convinced it proved anything. In order to shoot like that it would take quite a bit of practice no matter what kind of shooter you were. I don't recall anything saying Oswald had been out practicing the way he would have needed to pull that off. Maybe he did it and he got lucky but it's still hard to believe.
We can speculate all we want but I doubt we ever know the answer.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

If Ruby planned to shoot Oswald when he did, he sure wasn't worried about the timing of Oswald's transfer or a number of other aspects surrounding the shooting of Oswald.

Ruby had ample opportunity to shoot Oswald on both the 22nd and 23rd, but he didn't. Now some claim he was stalking Oswald to kill him, which if true, would still beg the question of why he waited till the 24th? Why not shoot Oswald the first opportunity he had?

On top of this, on the 24th, at the time when Oswald was scheduled to be transferred, Ruby was sitting in his apartment having coffee. He gets a call (10:19 AM) from one of his dancers requesting money. Only then does Ruby get dressed and drive downtown to the Western Union (which was close to the police station). Ruby wired one of his dancers $25 at 11:17 AM. This was an hour and 17 minutes after the police were scheduled to transfer Oswald. Why was Ruby at home and then wiring money to one of his dancers when he should have been waiting on Oswald's transfer if he was planning on killing Oswald as instructed?

Also, Ruby left his favorite dog in the car. Everyone who knew Ruby said he loved and pampered his dogs. Why would Ruby have brought his beloved dog with him downtown and left the dog in the car if he was planning on taking out Oswald that morning?

Had Oswald's last session of questioning not gone longer than expected and had Oswald not made a last minute decision to change clothes, Ruby would not have been present in the garage to shoot Oswald. Their paths would never have crossed that day.

Fact of the matter is Ruby assassinated Oswald. Where is the misunderstanding here? This event was clearly covered up/clouded by the feds. It ain't rocket science. 😁

 

[my_2cents]

I don't recall anything saying Oswald had been out practicing the way he would have needed to pull that off.

Actually there were people who reported seeing Oswald at shooting ranges before the assassination. Two witnesses, Dr. Homer Wood and his son Sterling Charles Wood claimed to have encountered Oswald on November 16 at the Sportdome Gun Range. They both stated they looked at Oswald's target and claimed Oswald had done some good shooting since all the rounds fired except one hit the bull's-eye.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

Actually there were people who reported seeing Oswald at shooting ranges before the assassination. Two witnesses, Dr. Homer Wood and his son Sterling Charles Wood claimed to have encountered Oswald on November 16 at the Sportdome Gun Range. They both stated they looked at Oswald's target and claimed Oswald had done some good shooting since all the rounds fired except one hit the bull's-eye.

So sayeth the Warren commission? 😉

 

[my_2cents]

Speaking of Oswald's personal connections, @OKSTATE1 and @2012Bearcat, have either of you heard of George de Mohrenschildt?

De Mohrenschildt befriended Oswald in the summer of 1962. De Mohrenschildt was a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club and the Dallas Council on World Affairs. Some of his friends were oil tycoons like Clint Murchison and H.L. Hunt. And get this, De Mohrenschildt knew Jackie Kennedy and her family, the Bouviers. He was a good friend of Jackie Kennedy's aunt, Edith Bouvier Beale. A young Jackie called De Mohrenschildt "Uncle George."

And this guy was palling around with Oswald up till April of 1963. Strange.

De Mohrenschildt ended up commiting suicide in 1977. This was shortly after an investigator for the House Select Committee on Assassinations reportedly reached out to him, since the Committee considered De Mohrenschildt an important witness. This was also after he had written a letter to then CIA Director George H.W. Bush in 1976 about removing "the net" around him and his wife. George H.W. Bush personally responded to this letter, claiming he could find no evidence of any recent government interest in De Mohrenschildt's activities. Yeah, De Mohrenschildt knew the Bush family too.

 

[my_2cents]

Fact of the matter is Ruby assassinated Oswald. Where is the misunderstanding here?

No one on this thread has claimed Ruby didn't assassinate Oswald. There is no misunderstanding.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

No one on this thread has claimed Ruby didn't assassinate Oswald. There is no misunderstanding.

The bigger story is being misdirected though.

 

[my_2cents]

So sayeth the Warren commission? 😉

No, so sayeth Dr. Homer Wood and his son Sterling Charles Wood.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

No, so sayeth Dr. Homer Wood and his son Sterling Charles Wood.

Like a crab crawling out of bucket.

 

[my_2cents]

The bigger story is being misdirected though.

What bigger story is being misdirected?

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

What bigger story is being misdirected?

Yer Homer story. 😂

 

[my_2cents]

Yer Homer story. 😂

What are you talking about?

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

What are you talking about?

Yer obvious reliability on the Warren report? 😂

 

[my_2cents]

Yer obvious reliability on the Warren report? 😂

I'm not relying on the Warren Commission Report. I haven't even mentioned the Warren Commission Report once on this thread.

I was referencing what Dr. Homer Wood and his son Sterling Charles Wood told Dallas Police Detective L.C. Graves in an interview on December 2, 1963. You can find Graves' report in the Dallas Municipal Archives.

Information Regarding Oswald's Firing His Rifle on the Sporting Gun Range

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

I'm not relying on the Warren Commission Report. I haven't even mentioned the Warren Commission Report once on this thread.

I was referencing what Dr. Homer Wood and his son Sterling Charles Wood told Dallas Police Detective L.C. Graves in an interview on December 2, 1963. You can find this in the Dallas Municipal Archives.

Information Regarding Oswald's Firing His Rifle on the Sporting Gun Range

So you refuse to acknowledge the United States government took out a sitting president?

 

[my_2cents]

So you refuse to acknowledge the United States government took out a sitting president?

No, I don't believe "the United States government" assassinated JFK.

 

[LAY THE WOODY]

No, I don't believe "the United States government" assassinated JFK.

There's secrets within. 😉

 

[AC2020]

This is a fantastic and interesting thread.

Thanks all for contributing.