Next Level Intelligence: Obama Oldies

[Medic007]

I think I remember a post very, very similar to this back when this was originally said by Obama. I'm glad to see it make its way back into this thread. If I could "like" this 10 times I would.

It's really a stupid argument by Obama and government apologists, because as you said the government siphoned off resources from the underlying, governed populous in order to provide the service for building a road. So it took those resources, resources that the populace no longer has, and made societal decisions. Let's put a road here. Let's put a fire hydrant there. Etcetera.

The myth is that someone like Mega wouldn't build a business had the government not put a road there. People will always need to travel, people will always need to communicate, people will always want help when fires break out... maybe the road that runs in front of Megas business now would be a quarter mile over, and instead of 4 Lane it would be 2 lane, or maybe it would be a one-way, who knows. But the resources that were taken from the populace by the government would have been utilized by the populace anyway....out of necessity. Trade would have happened anyway.

But not everybody would have built a business, only a few ever do.

Government apologists seem to overemphasize their reflections on the characteristics of the "weak" in society. It's where they derive their righteous indignation and their judgment of others.

I would be much, much more inclined to listen to things that the modern democratic party let's dribble out of its mouth, if they spent more time reflecting and speaking to the mechanisms that would help delineate that portion of the population that is truly in need from that portion of the population that willfully abuses the system. Because liberals never speak to those mechanisms, and say stupid s*** like the president did in that statement, I just can't take their arguments seriously... because I know they are not building a government that can be sustained long-term. They're building a house of cards.

Big round of applause. It's amazing how the government apologists forget where the resources to build and maintain infrastructure and government services comes from. It's actually quite opposite from Obama's statement. If there were no business owners there'd be no jobs and no employees and no tax revenue for a government to spend on anything.

 

[CBradSmith]

Exactly. Government exists because of the people, because of business. It's not the other way around.

As a thoughtful left-leaning individual, @davidallen I hope that what I said has a takeaway for you. And don't take this as me accusing you of being a large bloated government apologist, but instead someone who may associate with more lefties than I do. The takeaway being that if left policies can do a better job at not casting wide Nets, via social programs, "class" characterizations, or whatever, that inherently capture large swathes of individuals NOT in need... or programs that are inherently weak against fraud, and would do a better job (the leftist proposals) speaking to mechanisms that are sustainable and realistic (built on demonstrable human tendency) while not encroaching on basic liberties, you will find a much more willing audience in people like me.

 

[MegaPoke]

Liberal! Socialist!!

Aren't republicans horrible at government?

Yes, clearly.

 

[davidallen]

No, you didn't. You make it seem like a simple choice that anyone could do. It's risky and scary and requires a good idea, unique vision and/or a specialized talent and skill set. and on to of that, relatively few people have the tolerance for ambiguity required to give it a go. Even then, it will typically fail. Successes are built on layers of failure.

Obama and his apologists are saying its a simple thing to do in this country. It's not. Does an entrepreneur take advantage of society's resources? Sure, in exactly the same way you take advantage of water, air, food and so on.

If your argument is that society, culture and economy are integrated through symbiotic relationships, I'll agree. Defending the dumb-as-shit statement that a business owner who has crafted a way to put food on his family's table through his or her own giant balls and hard work is benefitting from something he or she did not build is actually a much better example of nativity (in defense of) a willful misstatement.

You are easier than Hannah Montanna.

To be frank, your frame of reference is pretty narrow Mega.

I have started, sold, participated in the creation of 5 businesses in my career. Having built two of those businesses outside the US I can tell you it is far easier, predictable, and frankly fair here than in many parts of the world. That is entirely due to the legal system, the infrastructure, the education system, etc. All of these can be/should be improved but really the combination of factors makes the US the center of innovation on the planet.

That you so casually can dismiss the benefits the American system provides makes you sound like a spoiled entitled brat. I suppose that is inevitable...

 

[davidallen]

Exactly. Government exists because of the people, because of business. It's not the other way around.

As a thoughtful left-leaning individual, @davidallen I hope that what I said has a takeaway for you. And don't take this as me accusing you of being a large bloated government apologist, but instead someone who may associate with more lefties than I do. The takeaway being that if left policies can do a better job at not casting wide Nets, via social programs, "class" characterizations, or whatever, that inherently capture large swathes of individuals NOT in need... or programs that are inherently weak against fraud, and would do a better job (the leftist proposals) speaking to mechanisms that are sustainable and realistic (built on demonstrable human tendency) while not encroaching on basic liberties, you will find a much more willing audience in people like me.

Great convo to have over beers some time - which comes first commerce or civil society or government - that is one I would love to have.

In regards to the stratification/classification for political means inherent in todays politics - don't for a minute think politicians are limited to one party or the other in this... they are equal opportunity abusers in this regard.

 

[davidallen]

Big round of applause. It's amazing how the government apologists forget where the resources to build and maintain infrastructure and government services comes from. It's actually quite opposite from Obama's statement. If there were no business owners there'd be no jobs and no employees and no tax revenue for a government to spend on anything.

You don't really believe that do you... I mean a look at history says you are wrong - the very underpinnings of capitalism - the contract and private property - REQUIRE a legal system to enforce and protect.

My view is there is a necessary dependency between civil society, commerce/capitalism, and government. They are three faces of the same core entity. You can not have one without the other two and as one goes, so they all go.

 

[davidallen]

You make it seem like a simple choice that anyone could do. It's risky and scary and requires a good idea, unique vision and/or a specialized talent and skill set. and on to of that, relatively few people have the tolerance for ambiguity required to give it a go. Even then, it will typically fail. Successes are built on layers of failure.

You reminded me of one of my favorite Steve Jobs quotes:

“When you grow up you tend to get told that the world is the way it is and your life is just to live your life inside the world. Try not to bash into the walls too much. Try to have a nice family life, have fun, save a little money. That's a very limited life. Life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact: Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you. And you can change it, you can influence it… Once you learn that, you'll never be the same again.”

― Steve Jobs

Don't have a limited life Mega...

 

[Medic007]

Sure, you're more likely to have a civilized society with a government than without. But without citizens there is no government. The citizens give government the authority to conduct business. Without our Constitution, which begins with "We the people," there is no authority for the federal government to exist.

Of course there is a symbiotic relationship between government and private. There has to be. But commerce and capitalism could exist without a government. A government could not exist without its citizens and certainly can't produce revenue to fund itself without business owners. The notion that the government has any hand in the success of a private business isn't a view that Obama or any other person will convince me to have.

 

[davidallen]

But commerce and capitalism could exist without a government.

Can you give us one example in history? I have seriously wracked my brain and can't think of one...

 

[wyomingosualum]

Can you give us one example in history? I have seriously wracked my brain and can't think of one...

Wouldn't any bartering agreement suffice?

 

[davidallen]

Wouldn't any bartering agreement suffice?

Who codifies and resolves disputes on said agreement? Where is the assurance afforded by a mature legal system when DChi decides he would prefer to keep those apples for some kick azz hard cider despite the fact that you already provided him eggs all growing season?

A serious question where in history is there not some form of government where there was anything above substience farming?

 

[Medic007]

There hasn't been davidallen, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. In a true free market society, somebody provides each needed service. When I have more time I'll respond more in depth.

 

[wyomingosualum]

Who codifies and resolves disputes on said agreement? Where is the assurance afforded by a mature legal system when DChi decides he would prefer to keep those apples for some kick azz hard cider despite the fact that you already provided him eggs all growing season?

Normally, these disputes are resolved with some sort of ass kicking.

You asked for a historic example. There it is.

I wonder how the Native Americans functioned without a government to coin money and such.

 

[davidallen]

Normally, these disputes are resolved with some sort of ass kicking.

You asked for a historic example. There it is.

I wonder how the Native Americans functioned without a government to coin money and such.

You ever heard of Tecumseh? Or Chief Joseph? Or perhaps the Anasazis who practiced an early form of communalism. The Pueblo moieties formed a division by patrilineal lines which was an early form governance - marriage was often used to form coalitions between these governing bodies.

Hell even the ass kicking ends up quickly becoming an authoritarian form of rule - with the best ass kicker taking control.

 

[davidallen]

There hasn't been davidallen, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. In a true free market society, somebody provides each needed service. When I have more time I'll respond more in depth.

Look forward to it... good discussion.

 

[davidallen]

Normally, these disputes are resolved with some sort of ass kicking.

You asked for a historic example. There it is.

I wonder how the Native Americans functioned without a government to coin money and such.

Oh yeah. Wampum...

 

[wyomingosualum]

I wouldn't have wanted to live in those times.

 

[wyomingosualum]

Anyway, back to the countdown. Any time the dude goes off-teleprompter, it's a potential gold mine:

 

[JimmyBob]

I wouldn't have wanted to live in those times.

You didn't.

 

[Medic007]

Anyway, back to the countdown. Any time the dude goes off-teleprompter, it's a potential gold mine:

View embedded media

Oops. Breathalyzer or inhalator. Both wrong. Fire the teleprompter.

 

[MegaPoke]

You reminded me of one of my favorite Steve Jobs quotes:

“When you grow up you tend to get told that the world is the way it is and your life is just to live your life inside the world. Try not to bash into the walls too much. Try to have a nice family life, have fun, save a little money. That's a very limited life. Life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact: Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you. And you can change it, you can influence it… Once you learn that, you'll never be the same again.”

― Steve Jobs

Don't have a limited life Mega...

You reminded me of another great thinker.

“Discovered by the Germans in 1904, they named it San Diego, which of course in German means ‘a whale’s vagina.'”

— Ron Burgundy

 

[wyomingosualum]

And who could forget this one. Only a minute long:

 

[davidallen]

You reminded me of another great thinker.

“Discovered by the Germans in 1904, they named it San Diego, which of course in German means ‘a whale’s vagina.'”

— Ron Burgundy

Escalating...

 

[MegaPoke]

To be frank, your frame of reference is pretty narrow Mega.

I have started, sold, participated in the creation of 5 businesses in my career. Having built two of those businesses outside the US I can tell you it is far easier, predictable, and frankly fair here than in many parts of the world. That is entirely due to the legal system, the infrastructure, the education system, etc. All of these can be/should be improved but really the combination of factors makes the US the center of innovation on the planet.

That you so casually can dismiss the benefits the American system provides makes you sound like a spoiled entitled brat. I suppose that is inevitable...

I didn't dismiss them. Just pointing out that it's a ridiculous point at some to credit the guy who drove the blacktop steamroller for a few shifts on I44 for a random business being successful.

BO did not misspeak. He specifically undermined the risk takers. I find it interesting - and truly unique among all the business owners I've ever met - that you defend this particular statement.

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

I didn't dismiss them. Just pointing out that it's a ridiculous point at some to credit the guy who drove the blacktop steamroller for a few shifts on I44 for a random business being successful.

BO did not misspeak. He specifically undermined the risk takers. I find it interesting - and truly unique among all the business owners I've ever met - that you defend this particular statement.

Wow. What a sense of arrogant entitlement.

Yeah -- you did it ALL. Try setting up a photo business in Mexico.

 

[MegaPoke]

Wow. What a sense of arrogant entitlement.

Yeah -- you did it ALL. Try setting up a photo business in Mexico.

Arrogant sense of entitlement? Ok. If you say so. I work 7 days a week and many of those days are 12+ hours. Virtually every post I make is during a file upload of some kind. After 6 years I am just now able to fully replace my last corporate income. And that's after my first attempt failed 13 years ago.

I'm anything but entitled. I earned my business through quality work and customer service. Nobody but my family assisted that.

As for Mexico, destination photographers down there do very well. It's a potential retirement plan. And not every Mexican soccer mom has a semi pro camera and sells cd's full of shitty pictures for $100 pesos like they do here. Way less competition for entry level photographers.

I do give you credit though. Doubt you remember but about 4 years ago you had some pretty asinine (but probably accurate) things to say about my business website. It helped motivate me to overhaul it and invest in a better portfolio. So, even though I built it - you inadvertently did provide some motivation so thanks a hole. I literally give you more credit than the national infrastructure.

 

[CBradSmith]

Wow. What a sense of arrogant entitlement.

Yeah -- you did it ALL. Try setting up a photo business in Mexico.

Are you evil? I'm pretty sure you are.

I honestly can't point to a more judgemental person that I know than you.

 

[Medic007]

Wow. What a sense of arrogant entitlement.

Yeah -- you did it ALL. Try setting up a photo business in Mexico.

Arrogant entitlement for taking credit for the business he built? Are you retarded? Serious question.

 

[squeak]

So, without the federal government, I wouldn't be able to get from my house to Home Depot because there would be no roads?

 

[anon_xl72qcu5isp39]

Are you all stupid or illiterate or what? No -- none of you - Would have a functioning business and prosperity without help from other people and the government. Not one of you could afford the roads, hospitals, electric infrastructure (the houses in Nicaragua I've seen that have electricity run it with barbed wire) etc. The court system has done more to enable your businesses than you recognize. Try doing business where there aren't stable property and contract rights and due process. Mega -- you can work 3 x that hard for 3 x as long in many places and you wouldn't get to first base.

Why is it so hard for conservatives to acknowledge other people's efforts and the advantages that provides? Bunch of stupid spoiled bitches. Try some gratitude and perspective for a change You all did it yourself?!? Nobody has addressed the contributions of your families and teachers, either. Crickets. That was all you -- your inner awesomeness. It's a great country and this incredible economic opportunity was made possible by many people that sacrificed a great deal.

Squeak, that's the perfect name for you. All you do is squeak like a fu$@&ing mouse.

 

[squeak]

Are you all stupid or illiterate or what? No -- none of you - Would have a functioning business and prosperity without help from other people and the government. Not one of you could afford the roads, hospitals, electric infrastructure (the houses in Nicaragua I've seen that have electricity run it with barbed wire) etc. The court system has done more to enable your businesses than you recognize. Try doing business where there aren't stable property and contract rights and due process. Mega -- you can work 3 x that hard for 3 x as long in many places and you wouldn't get to first base.

Why is it so hard for conservatives to acknowledge other people's efforts and the advantages that provides? Bunch of stupid spoiled bitches. Try some gratitude and perspective for a change You all did it yourself?!? Nobody has addressed the contributions of your families and teachers, either. Crickets. That was all you -- your inner awesomeness. It's a great country and this incredible economic opportunity was made possible by many people that sacrificed a great deal.

Squeak, that's the perfect name for you. All you do is squeak like a fu$@&ing mouse.

Not worth it. Your poor grammar speaks for itself.

 

[CBradSmith]

Lulz. Sys is a child. Tantrum time.

 

[JimmyBob]

Damn! Mega, CBrad, Medic, and squeak; I'm getting worried. You are spending way too much time talking to "no one" I can read.

 

[Medic007]

Damn! Mega, CBrad, Medic, and squeak; I'm getting worried. You are spending way too much time talking to "no one" I can read.

You should use the view ignored content button. It's getting next level hilarious. It's tantrum time!

 

[wyomingosualum]

Why is it so hard for conservatives to acknowledge other people's efforts and the advantages that provides? Bunch of stupid spoiled bitches. Try some gratitude and perspective for a change You all did it yourself?!? Nobody has addressed the contributions of your families and teachers, either. Crickets. That was all you -- your inner awesomeness. It's a great country and this incredible economic opportunity was made possible by many people that sacrificed a great deal.

Why is it so hard for liberals to acknowledge the effort of the individual and the advantages that provides? Bunch of stupid spoiled bitches. Try some gratitude and perspective for a change. Somebody else did that? Nobody has addressed the contributions of the sole proprietor and LLC owner, either. Crickets. That was somebody else's inner awesomeness. It's a great country and this incredible economic opportunity was made possible by many individuals who sacrificed a great deal.

 

[wyomingosualum]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

 

[davidallen]

I find it interesting - and truly unique among all the business owners I've ever met - that you defend this particular statement.

Perhaps that is because I have experience the difference and just how important and unique the American system is. Risk takers here take bigger risks because they can, that they don't know that and appreciate that is kinda sad.

 

[MegaPoke]

Perhaps that is because I have experience the difference and just how important and unique the American system is. Risk takers here take bigger risks because they can, that they don't know that and appreciate that is kinda sad.

What neither you nor Sys understand is that we aren't disagreeing that the American economic system is better than other places. America is awesome. That's not the point.

The reason American startups have had an advantage though is not what the government does for us. It's that historically it's mostly kept the fvck out of our way.

 

[davidallen]

So, without the federal government, I wouldn't be able to get from my house to Home Depot because there would be no roads?

Not quite... there would not be a Home Depot to go to... Big box retail would be a mere dream without the interstate highway system and transcontinental rail service (google Pacific Railroad Acts) to move goods. You more likely would be going down to the neighborhood lumber mill to see what if anything they had for you to barter for without a federal government. You would likely have cheap lumber if like me you lived in Portland Oregon. Not sure what you would have in your part of the world.

 

[davidallen]

What neither you nor Sys understand is that we aren't disagreeing that the American economic system is better than other places. America is awesome. That's not the point.

The reason American startups have had an advantage though is not what the government does for us. It's that historically it's mostly kept the fvck out of our way.

By "out of our way" you mean building the network that became the internet? I don't think that is what you mean...