Islamaphobia

[mseabolt]

More civilians are killed every three months by Islamic terrorists than died in the entire 36 years of the Northern Ireland "Troubles." In fact, 19 Muslim radicals killed more innocent people in just two hours on September 11th than the number of non-combatants killed over Northern Ireland in three and a half decades.

The IRA did not have a Biblical charter. In fact, they were a Marxist-atheist organization. Neither did the British government have religious motives, nor any of the other major groups. There were some smaller, radical groups that used the language of religious purity, but they were relatively obscure. The issue for the "Catholic" factions was Irish nationalism, and for the "Protestants" it was self-preservation and an end to the violence

The toll from the 36 years of conflict in Northern Ireland is 3,323 total lives - a ridiculously small number by comparison. Only a little over half of these were non-combatants, a casualty count that is comparable to the number of passengers lost in the 1912 sinking of the Titanic.

Taken from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/ira-islam.aspx

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

@COWBOYintheUK I can accept that.

However, if the US is supposedly getting out of Iraq then there shouldn't be a need for continued support.

The continued "picking" of sides to support in the ME has been FUBAR for decades and needs to stop sometime and maybe Trump's administration can be the one to do it.

We are too intertwined with those types of forces around the world , and they are to valuable for us to undo things
We will never get out of Iraq all the way, but if we ever did, the PKK would be even more valuable to us

 

[CowboyPhil]

My Dad used to say the B1 was the most piecedmeal (Congressional finger in the pie) plane he'd ever seen.

While in USAF they would cannibalize parts from broken planes to get others up and running. But the B1 would sometimes have a square fitting hose and the next plane over it would be a round hose.

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

More civilians are killed every three months by Islamic terrorists than died in the entire 36 years of the Northern Ireland "Troubles." In fact, 19 Muslim radicals killed more innocent people in just two hours on September 11th than the number of non-combatants killed over Northern Ireland in three and a half decades.

The IRA did not have a Biblical charter. In fact, they were a Marxist-atheist organization. Neither did the British government have religious motives, nor any of the other major groups. There were some smaller, radical groups that used the language of religious purity, but they were relatively obscure. The issue for the "Catholic" factions was Irish nationalism, and for the "Protestants" it was self-preservation and an end to the violence

The toll from the 36 years of conflict in Northern Ireland is 3,323 total lives - a ridiculously small number by comparison. Only a little over half of these were non-combatants, a casualty count that is comparable to the number of passengers lost in the 1912 sinking of the Titanic.

Taken from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/ira-islam.aspx

A terrorist is a terrorist, I know and have worked with hundreds of Muslims and have never met one that condones these radicals

 

[CowboyPhil]

@COWBOYintheUK maybe the US needs untie itself from so many webs.

And I don't doubt that many do not condone terrorist acts but you see more cheering for them than speaking out against them.

 

[GunsOfFrankEaton]

A terrorist is a terrorist, I know and have worked with hundreds of Muslims and have never met one that condones these radicals

Yeah it's all good. Germany and France should just keep letting them come en mass and at will. Nothing to see here.

 

[N. Pappagiorgio]

As an American, I am more afraid of the IRS than the IRA.

 

[CowboyJD]

White supremacists are Christian based terrorists?

Many white supremacists (not all) have at the core, Christian identity aspects to their claimed supremacy.

The old Cain and Abel thing.

We're not gonna go down the old "No True Scotsman" path that there is no such thing as a Christian terrorist again, are we?

 

[Medic007]

We're not gonna go down the old "No True Scotsman" path that there is no such thing as a Christian terrorist again, are we?

I won't argue the Christian/White Supremacy connection. There's definitely a strong one. But, with all due respect, in the present and recent past, there has been an extraordinary amount of people killing across the globe attributed to people that yell Allah Akbar before they slaughter them. If there's a remotely similar level of people killing currently being done by Christian terrorists, the media has whiffed BIG TIME.

Dragging up the current relatively low level issue of Christian terrorists as a "well, but" argument about Islamic terror is just dumb.

 

[MegaPoke]

Many white supremacists (not all) have at the core, Christian identity aspects to their claimed supremacy.

Well that makes sense, since virtually all western European people come from a mostly Christian lineage. Confirmation bias - they hate (insert epithet here) primarily because they are individually stupid and insecure. Such people aren't typically well read, so they misapply the only philosophy they've been exposed to - as needed.

That said, actual white supremacists seem pretty rare to me, and those who are committed to violence to the point of self-sacrifice probably make up .000001% of people who identify as such. Proportional to Islamic terrorists, they virtually do not exist.

Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Tulsaaggieson]

We are too intertwined with those types of forces around the world , and they are to valuable for us to undo things
We will never get out of Iraq all the way, but if we ever did, the PKK would be even more valuable to us

Would love to compare notes with you, but stove piping is a b!@#%.

 

[CowboyJD]

Well that makes sense, since virtually all western European people come from a mostly Christian lineage. Confirmation bias - they hate (insert epithet here) primarily because they are individually stupid and insecure. Such people aren't typically well read, so they misapply the only philosophy they've been exposed to - as needed.

That said, actual white supremacists seem pretty rare to me, and those who are committed to violence to the point of self-sacrifice probably make up .000001% of people who identify as such. Proportional to Islamic terrorists, they virtually do not exist.

Maybe I'm wrong.

So yes, we are going to go the "No True Scotsman" route....okay. Your entire first paragraph is "those guys aren't true Christians" justification and nothing more. I'm using "Christian identity" in the specific sense of a set of people that have a very specific set of beliefs about Christianity that are racially based. I'm not talking about people that just identitify as Christian because the come from a "mostly Christian lineage".

The threat from radical Christian Identity white supremacists and Christian identity sovereign citizens is greater than you apparently believe though I'm certainly not saying it is comparable to the threat posed by Muslim extremism.

 

[MegaPoke]

So yes, we are going to go the "No True Scotsman" route....okay. Your entire first paragraph is "those guys aren't true Christians" justification and nothing more. I'm using "Christian identity" in the specific sense of a set of people that have a very specific set of beliefs about Christianity that are racially based. I'm not talking about people that just identitify as Christian because the come from a "mostly Christian lineage".

The threat from radical Christian Identity white supremacists and Christian identity sovereign citizens is greater than you apparently believe though I'm certainly not saying it is comparable to the threat posed by Muslim extremism.

Way off.

I'm saying your connection between white supremacists and their Christian identity is incidental. It's the most likely spiritual philosophy that they've been exposed to - so they use the ideology to justify their hate. Their hate comes from anger, stupidity, socialization with the wrong people and insecurity.

Christianity as a base ideology does not breed white supremacists.

On the other hand, Islam has disturbing survey information among even moderate communities regarding jihad and violent sexism and homophobia. There is a huge difference in the fundamental intolerance and especially the remedy to those things. Some Christians are very intolerant but their remedy is less suicide vest and more sanctimonious lecturing.

I'm sure you are right that white supremacy is a bigger thing than I realize but the violence it produces is proportionately zilch compared to Islamic violence. Basic stat.

 

[Headhunter]

This idea that there are large groups of right wing people plotting to do bad things is a myth of the left and their favorite fake information group The Southern Poverty Law Center.

I see far more radical leftists doing nefarious things than I've ever seen by people considered right wing. People point to militia groups but those groups are mainly made up of people who enjoy going into the woods, shooting their guns and playing army. If they do have any intentions to take up arms it is as a defensive move not offensive aggression.

 

[CowboyPhil]

How do you determine they are Christian? Could they be aethist? Do they yell in "the name of God" before attacking? I'm guessing they are not asked their religious background while being booked into jail?

Or are all white males in America assumed to be Christian if they are not self identifying as another religion?

 

[MegaPoke]

How do you determine they are Christian? Could they be aethist? Do they yell in "the name of God" before attacking? I'm guessing they are not asked their religious background while being booked into jail?

Or are all white males in America assumed to be Christian if they are not self identifying as another religion?

Or again, if they do self identify as Christian it may go no deeper than a warped sense of Western European heritage.

I would be shocked if the average (not some anecdotal internet savant) white supremacist could even articulate their Christian beliefs. They are Christians in the same way everyone from Oklahoma is "part Indian."

 

[mseabolt]

blowing up (and attempting to) abortion clinics is the only ones that come to mind as actions directly tied to "In the name of Jesus" type terrorist attack. Attacks due to some other factor that the terrorist just happens to be, or self identifies, as Christian ... hmmm, what are they?

 

[squeak]

"Like" if your grandma was full-blooded Cherokee.

 

[BvillePoker]

Put it this way - Why isn't there Buddhistphobia? Why isn't Hindiphobia a thing? Christophobia?

Islamophibia exists because Islamofascist terrorism is statistically disproportionate to any other ideology.

I have so many problems with presenting data like this. You are first comparing apples to oranges Islam vs. Ulster Loyalism? Really? Second, this is epidemiological data. Like saying that more people eat ice cream in the summer and more drownings happen in the summer so ice cream must cause drownings. Third, Mulsims make up a much larger percentage of the world population than do say Zionists.

 

[CowboyJD]

Way off.

I'm saying your connection between white supremacists and their Christian identity is incidental. It's the most likely spiritual philosophy that they've been exposed to - so they use the ideology to justify their hate. Their hate comes from anger, stupidity, socialization with the wrong people and insecurity.

Christianity as a base ideology does not breed white supremacists.

On the other hand, Islam has disturbing survey information among even moderate communities regarding jihad and violent sexism and homophobia. There is a huge difference in the fundamental intolerance and especially the remedy to those things. Some Christians are very intolerant but their remedy is less suicide vest and more sanctimonious lecturing.

I'm sure you are right that white supremacy is a bigger thing than I realize but the violence it produces is proportionately zilch compared to Islamic violence. Basic stat.

You really are going with the No True Scotsman logical fallacy.

Any Christian terrorist isn't really a Christian or isn't motivated by their Christianity, therefore there are no Christian terrorists.

Maybe all the hate of all those Muslims you mention in your survey "comes from anger, stupidity, socialization with the wrong people and insecurity" and there is no such thing as a Muslim terrorist either.

Also "proportionally zilch" really isn't a basic stat. Proportionally insignificant in your opinion maybe, but it's either zero or not.

 

[CowboyJD]

Or again, if they do self identify as Christian it may go no deeper than a warped sense of Western European heritage.

I would be shocked if the average (not some anecdotal internet savant) white supremacist could even articulate their Christian beliefs. They are Christians in the same way everyone from Oklahoma is "part Indian."

No True Scotsman....the very definition.

There is a whole community up here in Elohim City that would have zero problem articulating their Christian beliefs.

 

[CowboyJD]

blowing up (and attempting to) abortion clinics is the only ones that come to mind as actions directly tied to "In the name of Jesus" type terrorist attack. Attacks due to some other factor that the terrorist just happens to be, or self identifies, as Christian ... hmmm, what are they?

The murder of Alan Berg by The Order/Silent Brotherhood, support of McVeigh by Elohim City, and numerous bank robberies to fund similar efforts come immediately to mind.

I'm not even trying to argue that the threat faced from such groups compares with the threat of Muslim extremism. I'm addressing the oft repeated claim that Christian terrorists simply don't exist.

 

[MegaPoke]

I think you are intentionally missing my point and applying the Scotsman thing here.

I never said there are no Christian terrorists.

 

[mseabolt]

The murder of Alan Berg by The Order/Silent Brotherhood, support of McVeigh by Elohim City, and numerous bank robberies to fund similar efforts come immediately to mind.

I'm not even trying to argue that the threat faced from such groups compares with the threat of Muslim extremism. I'm addressing the oft repeated claim that Christian terrorists simply don't exist.

Although McVeigh identifies as Christian, the Murrah building was a revenge act for the branch davidians not a scripture bastardized calling and I don't see that a christian religion is behind wiping government officials off the face of the earth although a supposed Christian carried out that bombing. I do think Muslim terrorists want to wipe any other religion off the face of the earth.

I did clearly say there are christian terrorists but carrying out the same type of attacks as Muslim terrorists, points me to abortion clinic bombings/shootings than any others of recent history.

 

[CowboyJD]

I think you are intentionally missing my point and applying the Scotsman thing here.

I never said there are no Christian terrorists.

You did say any connection between their terrorism is "incidental". That they are driven by things other than their Christianity to perform the acts terrorism.

"I'm saying your connection between white supremacists and their Christian identity is incidental. It's the most likely spiritual philosophy that they've been exposed to - so they use the ideology to justify their hate. Their hate comes from anger, stupidity, socialization with the wrong people and insecurity. "

If I'm missing your point, it's not because the point is unclear and muddled. I also think you don't really believe I am doing so intentionally, you're saying that because you don't want to examine the question any more.

 

[CowboyJD]

Although McVeigh identifies as Christian, the Murrah building was a revenge act for the branch davidians not a scripture bastardized calling and I don't see that a christian religion is behind wiping government officials off the face of the earth although a supposed Christian carried out that bombing. I do think Muslim terrorists want to wipe any other religion off the face of the earth.

I did clearly say there are christian terrorists but carrying out the same type of attacks as Muslim terrorists, points me to abortion clinic bombings/shootings than any others of recent history.

The support he received from Elohim City was based firmly upon a scripture bastardized calling....Christian Identity. And the Christian Identity movement absolutely does hold that all non-whites (and therefore not true Christians) will be exterminated or enslaved by the true white Christians in the new heaven on earth led by the coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[MegaPoke]

You did say any connection between their terrorism is "incidental". That they are driven by things other than their Christianity to perform the acts terrorism.

"I'm saying your connection between white supremacists and their Christian identity is incidental. It's the most likely spiritual philosophy that they've been exposed to - so they use the ideology to justify their hate. Their hate comes from anger, stupidity, socialization with the wrong people and insecurity. "

If I'm missing your point, it's not because the point is unclear and muddled. I also think you don't really believe I am doing so intentionally, you're saying that because you don't want to examine the question any more.

Oh I want to examine it.

But I think my point is clear. Christian terrorists exist. Those that turn to terrorism *as a result of Christian ideology* don't exist in measurable numbers.

The same can be said for most if not all other major religious ideologies, except the one.

It is basic statistics. You are arguing anecdotal outliers exist. Ok fine. Im sure there are Hindi and Buddhist terrorists as well. None of them have their own "states" with standing military forces, capital cities, etc.

I think you are intentionally arguing stubborn semantics and that's fine. But you seem to be starting with the idea that I'm defending Christianity at all costs. not the point. That's just where the convo went.

Islam as a basic ideology is far and away more likely to breed violent even suicidal terrorists. There is no representative sample equivalent for any other religious ideology. Not remotely close.

Now do I mean Muslims as a whole are terrorists? Of course not. But it's madness to equivocate terrorism's representation among other major religions.

 

[CowboyJD]

Oh I want to examine it.

But I think my point is clear. Christian terrorists exist. Those that turn to terrorism *as a result of Christian ideology* don't exist in measurable numbers.

The same can be said for most if not all other major religious ideologies, except the one.

It is basic statistics. You are arguing anecdotal outliers exist. Ok fine. Im sure there are Hindi and Buddhist terrorists as well. None of them have their own "states" with standing military forces, capital cities, etc.

I think you are intentionally arguing stubborn semantics and that's fine. But you seem to be starting with the idea that I'm defending Christianity at all costs. not the point. That's just where the convo went.

Islam as a basic ideology is far and away more likely to breed violent even suicidal terrorists. There is no representative sample equivalent for any other religious ideology. Not remotely close.

Now do I mean Muslims as a whole are terrorists? Of course not. But it's madness to equivocate terrorism's representation among other major religions.

I specifically did not equivocate terrorism's representation among other major religions to that from Islam. I specifically stated they were not equivocal.

With your clarification, we do disagree on the level of Christian terrorism that exists. You used the term don't exist in "measurable numbers" and are mere "anecdotal outliers". It is more substantial than that, IMO.

Disagreeing is certainly fine. Thank you for your clarification.

 

[mseabolt]

The support he received from Elohim City was based firmly upon a scripture bastardized calling....

I agree he was based firmly in bastardized scripture calling but that is not why he blew up the Murrah building .. It was for revenge .. Unless I guess you think it was because only non-whites worked there, then I guess you are right. .. or maybe only non-whites attacked and killed the branch davidians.

And the Christian Identity movement absolutely does hold that all non-whites (and therefore not true Christians) will be exterminated or enslaved by the true white Christians in the new heaven on earth led by the coming of Jesus Christ.

Agree but comparing this to what is going on with muslim terrorists right now in the world is like comparing a 1911 to a water gun ... and I know you are not .. but some have been.

 

[Cordellhall83]

Blowing up abortion clinics (mentioned above) are the only terrorist that I can think of that uses Christianity as their basis for terrorist activity. Can anyone else think of terrorist activity that uses Christian beliefs?

 

[CowboyJD]

I agree he was based firmly in bastardized scripture calling but that is not why he blew up the Murrah building .. It was for revenge .. Unless I guess you think it was because only non-whites worked there, then I guess you are right. .. or maybe only non-whites attacked and killed the branch davidians.



Agree but comparing this to what is going on with muslim terrorists right now in the world is like comparing a 1911 to a water gun ... and I know you are not .. but some have been.

I was talking about the support he received from Elohim City and their motives, not McVeigh's. I think it is arguable....indeed plausible...that bringing on a race war to accomplish and establish a Christian Identity state in America was also a personal motivation and reason for blowing up the Murrah building. He did have the Turner Diaries with him when he committed his act.

As for your second, I specifically stated that the two were not equivalent.

 

[COWBOYintheUK]

Blowing up abortion clinics (mentioned above) are the only terrorist that I can think of that uses Christianity as their basis for terrorist activity. Can anyone else think of terrorist activity that uses Christian beliefs?

How about the KKK, they are all White Christians and they flaunt that fact

 

[CowboyJD]

Blowing up abortion clinics (mentioned above) are the only terrorist that I can think of that uses Christianity as their basis for terrorist activity. Can anyone else think of terrorist activity that uses Christian beliefs?

You could literally just read the ten or so posts directly before yours.

 

[mseabolt]

How about the KKK, they are all White Christians and they flaunt that fact

We are talking about current .. not history. There have been many Christian terrorists/attacks/killings throughout history. Bringing those up to make today's Muslim terrorists seem on the same level as Christian terrorists today .. simply wrong.

We are dealing with life now not justifying it by saying well you Christians did this and this and this.

And I'll tell you where I stand because I am not in this thread to say we should not take Muslim refugees .. I am in the thread because you are trying to say "what is going on with Muslim terrorists is just the same thing going on with Christians but you all do not care because they are Christians"... That is just not true.

• I would support open borders with the elimination of the welfare state.
• I absolutely do not agree with a refugee ban
• I think the roll out was completely clustered
• I don't think it was a mistake that visa and green card holders were included - backtracking happened fast because they were single minded when creating the EO .. Keep out Muslims for a while was the theme

 

[mseabolt]

You could literally just read the ten or so posts directly before yours.

Nobody reads these things

 

[Cordellhall83]

After about 3-4 sentences I'm lost and movin' on. I was looking for quick, short, to-the-point answers vs. long thesis. But congrats on the one sentence response...quick and to the point.

 

[MegaPoke]

How about the KKK, they are all White Christians and they flaunt that fact

1. There are an estimated 5,000 members nationally, in a country of 320 million.

2. Of that 5,000 how many you reckon meet the definition of a terrorist? 50?

3. Of those 50, how many derive their terrorist mandate from a spiritual leader quoting scripture? 10?

Anecdotal.

 

[HighStickHarry]

I cannot believe this discussion is actually taking place. More people die from push pins than die from Christian terrorists and Muslim terrorists are in several countries and are occupying their own country within Syria and Iraq. Millions of Muslims want us all to die or convert to their religion. The kkk probably has angry picnics.

 

[MegaPoke]

How about the KKK, they are all White Christians and they flaunt that fact

Also - do you think you would notice a difference in mainstream Christians' reactions to a religious leader suggesting they kill apostates and homosexuals vs the way many prominent imams are treated?

 

[CBradSmith]

If you took a 4 year average over the last 80 years, you counted the number of deaths caused by killers killing "on behalf of (insert a religions God) and divided that by the yearly world count of self identified cohorts, and lastly, you plot that ratio over time...

Are there trends?