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Is Islam Merely a Religion?

Marshal Jim Duncan

MegaPoke is insane
Gold Member
Dec 22, 2013
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This is, I think, a thought provoking piece from Andrew McCarthy:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428201/donald-trump-muslim-immigration-policy-discussion

An excerpt:

As understood by the mainstream of Muslim-majority countries that are the source of immigration to America and the West, Islam is a comprehensive ideological system that governs all human affairs, from political, economic, and military matters to interpersonal relations and even hygiene. It is beyond dispute that Islam has religious tenets — the oneness of Allah, the belief that Mohammed is the final prophet, the obligation of ritual prayer. Yet these make up only a fraction of what is overwhelmingly a political ideology.

Our constitutional principle of religious liberty is derived from the Western concept that the spiritual realm should be separate from civic and political life. The concept flows from the New Testament injunction to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s. Crucially, the interpretation of Islam that is mainstream in most Muslim-majority countries does not accept a division between mosque and state.

In fact, to invoke “mosque” as the equivalent of “church” in referring to a division between spiritual and political life is itself a misleading projection of Western principles onto Islamic society. A mosque is not merely a house of worship. It does not separate politics from religion any more than Islam as a whole does. There is a reason why many of the fiery political protests that turn riotous in the Middle East occur on Fridays — the Muslim Sabbath, on which people pour out of the mosques with ears still burning from the imam’s sermon.

The lack of separation between spiritual and civic life is not the only problem with Islam. Sharia is counter-constitutional in its most basic elements — beginning with the elementary belief that people do not have a right to govern themselves freely. Islam, instead, requires adherence to sharia and rejection of all law that contradicts it. So we start with fundamental incompatibility, before we ever get to other aspects of sharia: its systematic discrimination against non-Muslims and women; its denial of religious liberty, free speech, economic freedom, privacy rights, due process, and protection from cruel and unusual punishments; and its endorsement of violent jihad in furtherance of protecting and expanding the territory it governs.

Let’s bear in mind that permitting immigration is a discretionary national act. There is no right to immigrate to the United States, and the United States has no obligation to accept immigrants from any country, including Muslim-majority countries. We could lawfully cut off all immigration, period, if we wanted to. Plus, it has always been a basic tenet of legal immigration to promote fidelity to the Constitution and assimilation into American society — principles to which classical sharia is antithetical.
 
You know..... I agree with lots of that. I kind of sign on to Bill Maher's observations about religion, islam and christianity. I know a couple Muslims and they're great, salt of the earth people. I ran across a few in Europe and they needed put down.

That religion is the enemy of civilization.
It has been the largest terrorist organization in the world for decades.

All that said, does anybody really think that if a large number of Muslim terrorists really wanted to, that they couldn't cripple this country real fast? The nuts are a very small % of the total Muslim population. The dumb move is to unite or alienate the other 99.99% that aren't trying to kill us. It's a tiny, tiny fraction of Muslims that pose a threat. Intellectual laziness by sweeping them all under the same rug will hurt us greatly in the long run.

Don't kill them - liberalize them. San Bernardino and Ft. Hood aside, we don't have teeming slums of Muslims without opportunity. Europe should provide more opportunity and those people wouldn't be so mad. People with good jobs, goals and realistic hope don't usually go on terrorism sprees.

I'll tell you who else knows not to go pick unnecessary fights and offend a few billion people - Paul Ryan. so does the new 5th dist. Congressman.
 
So the solution is to give them good jobs. Why didn't we think of that before. Brilliant. Where will these jobs come from?

The total number of actual killers may be a small percentage of muslims but you are living in la la land if you don't realize there is a significant % of muslims who are sympathetic to the cause of jihad and believe Sharia law rules over the laws of any country.
 
Those numbers are coming from Breitbart. They got their numbers from a conservative think tank poll.

Yes. I looked up the source material.
 
"The nuts are a very small % of the total Muslim population. The dumb move is to unite or alienate the other 99.99% that aren't trying to kill us. It's a tiny, tiny fraction of Muslims that pose a threat." - brother of board dumb ass


Can't wait to see you prove this
 
And, jeez, I think the numbers might be "possible," but that poll is clearly unacceptable data.
 
Those numbers are coming from Breitbart. They got their numbers from a conservative think tank poll.

Yes. I looked up the source material.

So?

Do we discount any CNN polling when it supports more liberal talking points?

The thing that's so humorous to me in this whole matter is libs (and I am not saying you are -- in fact I'd guess you lean more Libertarian) are so quick to bring a group in that's known for human trafficking, abuse of women, and vehemently anti gay.
 
I discount any poll that is at all fishy.

There is some proper polling on some of this.


In that poll they show that Muslim thoughts on homosexuality aren't all that different than any other religion in America as a percentage.

The problems in most of the worst Islamic countries have more to do with them being a bunch of goat raping hillbillies than Islam. This was confirmed by every veteran I have known and loads of other material.

They are poor. They are jobless. It's like going into the hollers of West Virginia.

Do we have to fix that? Maybe? Maybe not.

But to deny this influence on recruiting will just continue failure in the region.
 
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Going into the hollers of West Virginia?!?!? Wow.
 
Oh I agree regarding polls.

Many times a news organization or political party will throw one out there that supports whatever axe they're going to grind.

I think the more interesting polls are the ones we usually never see.
 
What do all of these terrorists have in common?

Religion? No.

Isolation? Yes.
 
Mega, you might want to check the articles I included.
 
1. A broad, generalized belief is one thing. Actual execution of a broad belief is another. Lots of you think abortion is cold blooded murder. You're not kidnapping abortion dr's though. Lots of Muslims hold Israel, U.S., etc in low repute. That doesnt mean they're terrorists. Ask southern voters whether we should have a bible-based society. I'll bet it's not..... 15% off that poll.

2. Well Harry, what do you think the real % of that religion is that are actual terrorists? If it's very much we'd all be dead There are a LOT of Muslims.

3. Couldn't agree more re the Appalachian analogy. I've had the same conversation with vets.


Sure Mega -- I'm listening. Are you talking about in the US or around the world, or what?
 
Ridiculous, if you take a look at the people in the west who have been radicalized many of them come from middle to upper middle class families.

This notion that all they want is economic opportunity is total Bull Shine!
It's the only way a liberal thinks. The liberals love to project their own opinion on others so that they can rescue them. The facts don't matter.
 
Ridiculous, if you take a look at the people in the west who have been radicalized many of them come from middle to upper middle class families.

This notion that all they want is economic opportunity is total Bull Shine!
I said isolation not poverty. Reading comp doesn't seem to be important to you.

All of this rhetoric from Trump and some on this board does is increase divides and isolation. Bravo.


But... since you brought it up, is Islam responsible for inner-city violence as well? Can you help explain why when poverty levels rise so does violence?
 
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It's the only way a liberal thinks. The liberals love to project their own opinion on others so that they can rescue them. The facts don't matter.
I was giving your credit previously. You don't seem to want to recognize the meaning of words either. Plus, anyone that has known me in person or on the boards for a long time knows "liberal" is laughable.
 
I was giving your credit previously. You don't seem to want to recognize the meaning of words either. Plus, anyone that has known me in person or on the boards for a long time knows "liberal" is laughable.
I wasn't referring to you nor did I respond to you.
 
Mega, you might want to check the articles I included.


I did. They are very interesting and certainly under-reported. Those tool sheds should be shipped to Guantanamo with the rest of the terrorists. I am a big American liberties guy, but to me if you engage in terrorism of any kind in this day and age, you should be treated as a non-uniformed enemy combatant.

Anyway, my point was the argument against broad sweeping sanctions against Muslim immigrants in general because of the actions of a statistical minority is perfectly analogous to the argument against sweeping gun control laws because of the fear of mass shooters. In fact, I think the amount of evidence to support one or the other is incredibly disparate with gun control being an obvious loser, while muslim immigration is clearly something that needs at minimum, a vastly superior vetting system.

Also, if it seems like a reach to connect these two otherwise unrelated scenarios, I agree - but Captain Shitbird has made the connection several times and used an Oval Office primetime speech to attempt to link anti-terrorism plans with ordinary gun control agendas. He's an idiot, but he is the one that made the connection, so I think it's worth getting honest feedback from the board cheerleaders. I'll give @syskatine credit for showing up. The rest have gone to ground since the gerbil's speech.

Back to my analogy, I would think that American citizens with specifically enumerated rights should get the benefit of the doubt over Syrian refugees and various muslim immigrants, and yet people have no problem reflexively calling Trump's plan unAmerican and invoking Godwin's Law by comparing him to a modern day Hitler. Yet, no outcry over the Hitleresque gun control proposals submitted by shitbird himself. So selective, our spoiled and coddled citizenry. So open minded about some things and closed minded about others. Some traditional rights and ideals are so you know... American, while others "aren't who we are" CATCHPHRASE!
 
It's not a religion, it's a political movement and has been from the very beginning. There's nothing we can do that's going to stop them from wanting to kill us. We go over there and try to make things better they hate us because we are there, we pull out and no one stands up to them and they take more land and gain more power and they still hate us. It's so phony and disingenuous to keep saying that the remarks of Trump are going give them more power and make them stronger. The fact that America exists makes them stronger. Yes there are countless muslim americans that are as peaceful and pro USA as the folks on this board, however there are plenty of peaceful muslims as well as Christians over in the middle east but that hasn't stopped that brand of radical islam from growing. It's a cancer and right now all we are really wanting to do is try to change our diet and hope that it cures it. I hate to break it to folks but it's not going to work and hasn't worked.

I have no clue what the answer is but it's not going to be easy whatever it is and sadly I don't think most folks have the balls make tough decisions and follow through with them. Sometimes the right decision is the ugly decision.
 
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I did. They are very interesting and certainly under-reported. Those tool sheds should be shipped to Guantanamo with the rest of the terrorists. I am a big American liberties guy, but to me if you engage in terrorism of any kind in this day and age, you should be treated as a non-uniformed enemy combatant.

Anyway, my point was the argument against broad sweeping sanctions against Muslim immigrants in general because of the actions of a statistical minority is perfectly analogous to the argument against sweeping gun control laws because of the fear of mass shooters. In fact, I think the amount of evidence to support one or the other is incredibly disparate with gun control being an obvious loser, while muslim immigration is clearly something that needs at minimum, a vastly superior vetting system.

Also, if it seems like a reach to connect these two otherwise unrelated scenarios, I agree - but Captain Shitbird has made the connection several times and used an Oval Office primetime speech to attempt to link anti-terrorism plans with ordinary gun control agendas. He's an idiot, but he is the one that made the connection, so I think it's worth getting honest feedback from the board cheerleaders. I'll give @syskatine credit for showing up. The rest have gone to ground since the gerbil's speech.

Back to my analogy, I would think that American citizens with specifically enumerated rights should get the benefit of the doubt over Syrian refugees and various muslim immigrants, and yet people have no problem reflexively calling Trump's plan unAmerican and invoking Godwin's Law by comparing him to a modern day Hitler. Yet, no outcry over the Hitleresque gun control proposals submitted by shitbird himself. So selective, our spoiled and coddled citizenry. So open minded about some things and closed minded about others. Some traditional rights and ideals are so you know... American, while others "aren't who we are" CATCHPHRASE!

This times a million. I swear Obama is the most hypocritical person in America. Also do all of you calling for new gun laws realize that this event should never have happened? They should have been able to stop these people or at least have them shown up on the radar as possible bad people yet nothing I mean nothing was done. Also isn't just great that within a week of this event they know all about these two people yet there where no measures put in place to catch these people. How about just making sure you can handle the checks for immigration and people buying illegal bomb material before we go and add more gun laws. I don't support Trump and his idea of banning all Muslim because I think it is possible to weed out the bad eggs. If you can't enforce the laws already in place they why do people think adding new ones will solve the problem?????
 
This notion that all they want is economic opportunity is total Bull Shine!

Who said that? Yet another straw man. You'd think on some level eventually you would tire of the spin and stupid sophistry. Now "all they want is economic opportunity." You have such a shitty spirit about these things and are so constantly looking to jump to a caveman conclusion, that any legitimate discourse is hopeless.
 
Anyway, my point was the argument against broad sweeping sanctions against Muslim immigrants in general because of the actions of a statistical minority is perfectly analogous to the argument against sweeping gun control laws because of the fear of mass shooters. In fact, I think the amount of evidence to support one or the other is incredibly disparate with gun control being an obvious loser, while muslim immigration is clearly something that needs at minimum, a vastly superior vetting system.

gun-auto-fatalities.jpg


Insert "foreigner muslim terrorist" for "gun" and I'm listening to some pretty drastic solutions. It really IS about the statistics.
 
This times a million. I swear Obama is the most hypocritical person in America. Also do all of you calling for new gun laws realize that this event should never have happened? They should have been able to stop these people or at least have them shown up on the radar as possible bad people yet nothing I mean nothing was done. Also isn't just great that within a week of this event they know all about these two people yet there where no measures put in place to catch these people. How about just making sure you can handle the checks for immigration and people buying illegal bomb material before we go and add more gun laws. I don't support Trump and his idea of banning all Muslim because I think it is possible to weed out the bad eggs. If you can't enforce the laws already in place they why do people think adding new ones will solve the problem?????

They tried but DHL stopped a program 3 years ago due to political correctness.

But a year into the investigation, Haney said they got a visit from the State Department and the Homeland Security Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, who said that tracking these groups was problematic because they were Islamic.

His investigation was shut down and 67 of his records were deleted, including one into an organization with ties to the mosque in Riverside, Calif., that San Bernardino terrorist Syed Farook attended.


http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/12/...ted-ca-attack-if-government-didnt-cut-funding
 
So the numbers are wrong?
It's not my responsibility to prove them correct. It's the burden of the journalists and statisticians to provide properly sourced data.

Pulling from a data bank with a professed bias wouldn't even pass in an AP high school course.
 
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