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Individualist or Philosophical Anarchism Explained

Good luck with this one. I'm not sure syskatine can appreciate any philosophical viewpoint unless it involves a photoshopped picture of Biff shitting himself on a golf course. He only knows what the left preaches.
 
Good luck with this one. I'm not sure syskatine can appreciate any philosophical viewpoint unless it involves a photoshopped picture of Biff shitting himself on a golf course. He only knows what the left preaches.

I guess you’re right. I’m really disappointed. I thought he would read this and comment on it. I’ve often thought he gets great joy out of poking Republican and conservative apologists, but in truth he didn’t believe a lot of what he wrote, which is occasionally gibberish. His prodding of Republicans and conservatives is part of the reason I like him. He asked several times yesterday for me to “define” anarchism. Stupidly I thought he really wanted to know. Sys, I’m holding out hope to hear from you!
 
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It’s much more than a dictionary definition. Sys, if you really want to know what anarchism is this is a good essay with which to begin.

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/victor-yarros-individualist-or-philosophical-anarchism

I tried, Dan. You're in Lord of the Rings territory. That has nothing to do with real life, all the utopian stuff is irrelevant. Sure, I agree with all kinds of utopian ideals but they aren't real. That is so dense and pretentious, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it's like freshman philosophy stuff.

It really is silly but out of respect I'll play. No government, but they resist crime. So who decides what's a crime, and what is done to remedy crime? The writer brings up that obvious issue out of the gate but then fades into the first principle of human happiness.
 
It really is silly but out of respect I'll play. No government, but they resist crime. So who decides what's a crime, and what is done to remedy crime? The writer brings up that obvious issue out of the gate but then fades into the first principle of human happiness.

@Ponca Dan did I miss your response to this?
 
I guess you’re right. I’m really disappointed. I thought he would read this and comment on it. I’ve often thought he gets great joy out of poking Republican and conservative apologists, but in truth he didn’t believe a lot of what he wrote, which is occasionally gibberish. His prodding of Republicans and conservatives is part of the reason I like him. He asked several times yesterday for me to “define” anarchism. Stupidly I thought he really wanted to know. Sys, I’m holding out hope to hear from you!

So how do anarchists decide what's a crime? Is that such an unreasonable question? That's what your posted article talks about.
 
It’s much more than a dictionary definition. Sys, if you really want to know what anarchism is this is a good essay with which to begin.

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/victor-yarros-individualist-or-philosophical-anarchism
Gonna give this a go....

The anarchists emphatically favor resistance to and organized protection against crime and aggression of every kind; it is not greater freedom for the criminal, but greater freedom for the noncriminal, that they aim to secure; and by the abolition of government they mean the removal of restrictions upon conduct intrinsically ethical and legitimate, but which ignorant legislation has interdicted as criminal.

Can you help me understand how "conduct intrinsically ethical and legitimate" is defined?

In prior conversations I have asserted a similar statement and have defined the same - that indeed the laws we live under today are formulated through social consensus. As that consensus changes so does the law under which we live (legalization of marijuana, gay marriage, gun control, et al).

@Ponca Dan what is your definition of "intrinsically ethical and legitimate"?
 
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Sys, I had two primary reasons for posting the link. The first reason, which was of no major importance, was an attempt to counteract an argument promulgated by Cowboy JD in an earlier thread in which he seemed to believe because he had looked up the definition of anarchism in a dictionary he was proficient in claiming he knew all there needs to know about the subject. This minor purpose of the link was to show that anarchism is much more nuanced, more complex, and a more serious political theory than a dictionary definition could provide. I know that JD has several sycophants on this board who appear to hang onto his every word as if it is gospel, and I hoped they would read the link and discover there is much more to it than he supposes. As I said, this first purpose was of no major significance to me.

The second reason, which I realize was stupid on my part, was in the same thread I came by the notion that you were somewhat seriously interested. I say I was stupid because I have observed that your general MO is to ridicule, demean, criticize, etc. those political positions with which you disagree, as opposed to advocating positively for your position. You are not unique in that attitude; almost everybody that writes here uses the same technique. But for some strange reason I have always had the impression that you have never truly believed some of the things you have written, that you just enjoy trying to make your opponent squirm. I was of the opinion that you generally agreed with your left-leaning writings, but that you had never seriously contemplated the deeper meaning of what left-leaning ideas would achieve. I stupidly thought you were a rare left winger that sometimes could open his mind to other ways of thinking. So I posted the link, thinking you might enjoy reading it. But the first thing out of your mouth in reply was "this is Lord of the Rings territory," and I realized how wrong I was. I have little to no interest in tit-for-tat insults, a back and forth that is so common here. And so I saw no reason to reply, knowing full well what the thread would turn into. I'm sorry if I have disappointed you, but there are plenty of other people on this board with whom you can play the game.

But let me respond to your question, an answer I am sure will disappoint. You want to know how people in an anarchist society would protect themselves from crime, who would define crime, etc. Any society is ruled by laws, which are generally accepted practices. There doesn't need to be a legislated dictate from a governmental body for people to know not to kill, steal, rape, rob, etc. That is understood by any society that has ever existed. It would be no different in a society of people free from the oppression of a government. It's when people relinquish their liberty to a government that we see dictates that defy laws that are generally accepted by society without a government. What light bulbs we are allowed to own, how much water our toilets can flush, what herbs we can ingest into our own bodies, you get the picture. Laws exist in spite of the existence of a state. But how on Earth can you survive the cretins that defy natural laws? Don't we need a police force, how could we possibly survive without a law enforcement body? Well, an anarchist would say an individual in a free society would be on his own to take responsibility for his own protection. Just as one is responsible for securing his own food, clothing and shelter, so in a free society he would be responsible for his protection from criminals. The marketplace has performed admirably in every economic category, and this would be one more. I know you will find that unacceptable. But that's how it would work.
 
Sys, I had two primary reasons for posting the link. The first reason, which was of no major importance, was an attempt to counteract an argument promulgated by Cowboy JD in an earlier thread in which he seemed to believe because he had looked up the definition of anarchism in a dictionary he was proficient in claiming he knew all there needs to know about the subject. This minor purpose of the link was to show that anarchism is much more nuanced, more complex, and a more serious political theory than a dictionary definition could provide. I know that JD has several sycophants on this board who appear to hang onto his every word as if it is gospel, and I hoped they would read the link and discover there is much more to it than he supposes. As I said, this first purpose was of no major significance to me.

The second reason, which I realize was stupid on my part, was in the same thread I came by the notion that you were somewhat seriously interested. I say I was stupid because I have observed that your general MO is to ridicule, demean, criticize, etc. those political positions with which you disagree, as opposed to advocating positively for your position. You are not unique in that attitude; almost everybody that writes here uses the same technique. But for some strange reason I have always had the impression that you have never truly believed some of the things you have written, that you just enjoy trying to make your opponent squirm. I was of the opinion that you generally agreed with your left-leaning writings, but that you had never seriously contemplated the deeper meaning of what left-leaning ideas would achieve. I stupidly thought you were a rare left winger that sometimes could open his mind to other ways of thinking. So I posted the link, thinking you might enjoy reading it. But the first thing out of your mouth in reply was "this is Lord of the Rings territory," and I realized how wrong I was. I have little to no interest in tit-for-tat insults, a back and forth that is so common here. And so I saw no reason to reply, knowing full well what the thread would turn into. I'm sorry if I have disappointed you, but there are plenty of other people on this board with whom you can play the game.

But let me respond to your question, an answer I am sure will disappoint. You want to know how people in an anarchist society would protect themselves from crime, who would define crime, etc. Any society is ruled by laws, which are generally accepted practices. There doesn't need to be a legislated dictate from a governmental body for people to know not to kill, steal, rape, rob, etc. That is understood by any society that has ever existed. It would be no different in a society of people free from the oppression of a government. It's when people relinquish their liberty to a government that we see dictates that defy laws that are generally accepted by society without a government. What light bulbs we are allowed to own, how much water our toilets can flush, what herbs we can ingest into our own bodies, you get the picture. Laws exist in spite of the existence of a state. But how on Earth can you survive the cretins that defy natural laws? Don't we need a police force, how could we possibly survive without a law enforcement body? Well, an anarchist would say an individual in a free society would be on his own to take responsibility for his own protection. Just as one is responsible for securing his own food, clothing and shelter, so in a free society he would be responsible for his protection from criminals. The marketplace has performed admirably in every economic category, and this would be one more. I know you will find that unacceptable. But that's how it would work.

Well, so what about non-natural laws? How, say, do we protect ourselves against a drunk driver, or a teenager driving 85 mph next to an elementary school, or a neighbor running 100 hogs in their back yard? Or air traffic? Or making sure a nuclear power plant doesn't irradiate the midwest?
 
Sys, I had two primary reasons for posting the link. The first reason, which was of no major importance, was an attempt to counteract an argument promulgated by Cowboy JD in an earlier thread in which he seemed to believe because he had looked up the definition of anarchism in a dictionary he was proficient in claiming he knew all there needs to know about the subject. This minor purpose of the link was to show that anarchism is much more nuanced, more complex, and a more serious political theory than a dictionary definition could provide. I know that JD has several sycophants on this board who appear to hang onto his every word as if it is gospel, and I hoped they would read the link and discover there is much more to it than he supposes. As I said, this first purpose was of no major significance to me.

The second reason, which I realize was stupid on my part, was in the same thread I came by the notion that you were somewhat seriously interested. I say I was stupid because I have observed that your general MO is to ridicule, demean, criticize, etc. those political positions with which you disagree, as opposed to advocating positively for your position. You are not unique in that attitude; almost everybody that writes here uses the same technique. But for some strange reason I have always had the impression that you have never truly believed some of the things you have written, that you just enjoy trying to make your opponent squirm. I was of the opinion that you generally agreed with your left-leaning writings, but that you had never seriously contemplated the deeper meaning of what left-leaning ideas would achieve. I stupidly thought you were a rare left winger that sometimes could open his mind to other ways of thinking. So I posted the link, thinking you might enjoy reading it. But the first thing out of your mouth in reply was "this is Lord of the Rings territory," and I realized how wrong I was. I have little to no interest in tit-for-tat insults, a back and forth that is so common here. And so I saw no reason to reply, knowing full well what the thread would turn into. I'm sorry if I have disappointed you, but there are plenty of other people on this board with whom you can play the game.

But let me respond to your question, an answer I am sure will disappoint. You want to know how people in an anarchist society would protect themselves from crime, who would define crime, etc. Any society is ruled by laws, which are generally accepted practices. There doesn't need to be a legislated dictate from a governmental body for people to know not to kill, steal, rape, rob, etc. That is understood by any society that has ever existed. It would be no different in a society of people free from the oppression of a government. It's when people relinquish their liberty to a government that we see dictates that defy laws that are generally accepted by society without a government. What light bulbs we are allowed to own, how much water our toilets can flush, what herbs we can ingest into our own bodies, you get the picture. Laws exist in spite of the existence of a state. But how on Earth can you survive the cretins that defy natural laws? Don't we need a police force, how could we possibly survive without a law enforcement body? Well, an anarchist would say an individual in a free society would be on his own to take responsibility for his own protection. Just as one is responsible for securing his own food, clothing and shelter, so in a free society he would be responsible for his protection from criminals. The marketplace has performed admirably in every economic category, and this would be one more. I know you will find that unacceptable. But that's how it would work.

Lol.

You are so passive aggressive it is truly awe inspiring.

Kinda have to admire your commitment to it.

Kudos.
 
Well, so what about non-natural laws? How, say, do we protect ourselves against a drunk driver, or a teenager driving 85 mph next to an elementary school, or a neighbor running 100 hogs in their back yard? Or air traffic? Or making sure a nuclear power plant doesn't irradiate the midwest?

OK, drunk drivers, speeding teenagers. How are we protected from those violations now? Have mandated laws against drunk driving or speeding stopped those practices? Obviously not. The thing to understand about a govrenment-free society is virtually everything would be privately owned. The streets would be built and maintained by property owners who should have strict limitations on those who contract to use their product. Most likely the owners would have enforcement personnel that would see to it their product was used as specified by contract. I say "most likely" because maybe some road owners would not try to protect their reputations, would care only for the quick profit they could obtain from unsuspecting customers by letting their roads be lawless. How quickly do you suppose it would become common knowledge that certain roads were meat grinders to avoid at all cost. For other road companies their reputation for having safe roads that are well maintained and secure would be paramount. On which roads would most people choose to travel? The speeders and drunk drivers would probably choose the meat grinder roads because those roads adhere to their desires. There is much more that can - and has! - been said about this particular topic, but let's stop there.

But what about smelly neighbors? Most likely (there's that phrase again!) neighborhoods would have covenants to which property owners would agree before purchasing the property. Violate the agreed upon covenants and out you go.

Scary nuclear power plants, kind of like the ones the Russian and Japanese governments protected their citizens from. What would be the benefit to a privately owned company that operated a nuclear power plant if it killed all its customers, including the working stiffs and executives that worked there? Do you not suppose they would actively seek to operate safely? Is it possible there might be a nuclear power plant wathdog organization, like Consumer Reports, that frequently inspects the plant independently of the operating company? In a free society, a free market society, reputation would be everything. Oh, you're operating unsafely, I think I'll go elsewhere for my power. It's a free market, there will be just as many power plant options as there are barber shops or grocery stores. The unsavory ones will not survive.

Too many people are of the notion that an anarchist society would be Wild West, every man for himself, completely disorganized, helter skelter maniacs roaming the streets looking for completely helpless people to murder and maim, evil corporations that would inflict every manner of mayhem on an incoherent populace that would be incapable of resisting. It's quite amazing to me that those people see the world as it is, with governments inflicting countless injury, and yet can't see the common denominator is government itself. They put up resistance to a free society by blaming liberty for the injustice that is perpetrated by government. Would a free society ultimately become ruled by a powerful few? Maybe. Who knows? It's never been tried. But one thing is certain: a powerful few most certainly rules us in this world, the one we live in now.
 
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Most likely the owners would have enforcement personnel that would see to it their product was used as specified by contract.
some road owners would not try to protect their reputations, would care only for the quick profit they could obtain from unsuspecting customers by letting their roads be lawless.
there will be just as many power plant options as there are barber shops or grocery stores.
Too many people are of the notion that an anarchist society would be Wild West, every man for himself, completely disorganized,
 
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@Ponca Dan - so many questions for you.

First as to "natural rights" - from where do they derive, can you give me your definition? How do you resolve the inevitable conflicts between my version and yours?

Second as to contracts - how are they mediated in disputes, who enforces them when one party or the other is in breach?

Finally (for now) - are there in your mind long term or greater interests beyond those of a single individual that are not captured in your definition of "natural rights"?
 
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I think I have told you this before. From my perspective a right is a condition of existence required by mans’ nature for his proper survival. The three primary rights are those of life, liberty and property. The way I see it a man is born with free will. He must be at liberty to exercise that free will. Provided, of course, he doesn’t infringe on the exercise of free will by others. The difference, as I recall (I’m an old man so my memory isn’t the best), is you believe rights come from the good graces of government, that men are not born with natural rights. They have rights as provided by the state. What baffles me by that notion is the state is made up of individual people. For some reason these people are afforded the opportunity to define and/or protect rights as they desire. I’ve never quite understood why those indiduals are thought to be intellectually or morally superior to the rest of us. Most state agents with whom I’ve had contact struck me as just plain old people, not intellectually or morally superior in any way. I’m sure you will correct me if I’m mistaken.

One way contracts could be enforced would be the agreement by the two parties to allow an independent arbiter, or arbitration company, which has been agreed to in advance and written into the contract, determine the outcome of any dispute. The market would provide multiple such individuals or companies and the parties to the contract would agree in advance to follow his/its decision. That’s one possibility. I have no doubt free people would be able to come up with multiple decision making alternatives.

No, I do not agree in the “greater good” prospect. Society is composed of individuals. When the individual is protected by law the entire society is therefore protected. There is no need for the separate protection of groups.
 
Have mandated laws against drunk driving or speeding stopped those practices? Obviously not.

Well is that the standard for anything? Either 100% successful or it has no merit. There are people that still drive drunk, and teenagers still speed, but compare the speeds of people in a 25 mph and 70 mph speed zones. Those laws deter dangerous conduct.

The streets would be built and maintained by property owners who should have strict limitations on those who contract to use their product.

What a nightmare. That's lunacy. Where is that working?
 
I think I have told you this before. From my perspective a right is a condition of existence required by mans’ nature for his proper survival. The three primary rights are those of life, liberty and property. The way I see it a man is born with free will. He must be at liberty to exercise that free will. Provided, of course, he doesn’t infringe on the exercise of free will by others. The difference, as I recall (I’m an old man so my memory isn’t the best), is you believe rights come from the good graces of government, that men are not born with natural rights. They have rights as provided by the state. What baffles me by that notion is the state is made up of individual people. For some reason these people are afforded the opportunity to define and/or protect rights as they desire. I’ve never quite understood why those indiduals are thought to be intellectually or morally superior to the rest of us. Most state agents with whom I’ve had contact struck me as just plain old people, not intellectually or morally superior in any way. I’m sure you will correct me if I’m mistaken.

One way contracts could be enforced would be the agreement by the two parties to allow an independent arbiter, or arbitration company, which has been agreed to in advance and written into the contract, determine the outcome of any dispute. The market would provide multiple such individuals or companies and the parties to the contract would agree in advance to follow his/its decision. That’s one possibility. I have no doubt free people would be able to come up with multiple decision making alternatives.

No, I do not agree in the “greater good” prospect. Society is composed of individuals. When the individual is protected by law the entire society is therefore protected. There is no need for the separate protection of groups.
So how is the decision of an arbiter enforced?
 
So how is the decision of an arbiter enforced?

By an agreed upon enforcer, of course. Agreed upon in advance.

Look, David, that’s just my notion on how it could work. In a society of free people there would be a multitude of ways agreements would be sanctified. I don’t for one minute claim to have all the answers to “what about this?” and “what about that?” A free society would be just that: free people contracting freely in all sorts of ways. If you want to live a bohemian/hippie commune lifestyle it would be of no concern to me. Live as socialized a lifestyle as you want with all the like minded people with whom you want to associate. I would have no political authority to make you alter your choices. If I want to be an upright capitalistic pig that should be of no concern to you. There would be no state for either of us to fight over, no one size fits all mandate that if it is not followed would put either one of us behind bars. Wouldn’t it be joyous that you the hippie and me the stiff-back nerd could play tennis without trying to outfox each other, without feeling we need to be enemies? There would be no state enforcement that we would need to fear from each other. That sounds infinitely preferable to me.
 
Well is that the standard for anything? Either 100% successful or it has no merit. There are people that still drive drunk, and teenagers still speed, but compare the speeds of people in a 25 mph and 70 mph speed zones. Those laws deter dangerous conduct.



What a nightmare. That's lunacy. Where is that working?[/QUOTE

As regards your “100%” statement it seems to me that is exactly what you are demanding from a stateless society. If it isn’t perfect it must be denied as a nightmare, as lunacy.

As regards your speeders on the roads, drunk driving concern I’m not understanding what you’re saying. Anarchists must show proof positive that private roads would operate without fail or the option must be stopped before it’s tried? Sorry, I can’t live up to those expectations. Human nature/human behavior is not mine to control. But in case you are unaware there are lots of private roads operating in this country as we speak. They don’t appear to have any more difficulties than the public ones.
 
Oops! I responded but somehow it got lost. I don’t have time to do it over. I’ll try to get back to you later. I would appreciate it if you would eliminate the hyperbole (nightmare, lunacy). It would make the conversation much more pleasant. The hyperbole is unnecessary.
 
Oops! I responded but somehow it got lost. I don’t have time to do it over. I’ll try to get back to you later. I would appreciate it if you would eliminate the hyperbole (nightmare, lunacy). It would make the conversation much more pleasant. The hyperbole is unnecessary.

I agree....the hyperbole is completely unnecessary.

Maybe start with eliminating your own.

“I know that JD has several sycophants on this board who appear to hang onto his every word as if it is gospel,...”

“It's quite amazing to me that those people see the world as it is, with governments inflicting countless injury, and yet can't see the common denominator is government itself. They put up resistance to a free society by blaming liberty for the injustice that is perpetrated by government. Would a free society ultimately become ruled by a powerful few?”

“Wouldn’t it be joyous that you the hippie and me the stiff-back nerd could play tennis without trying to outfox each other, without feeling we need to be enemies? There would be no state enforcement that we would need to fear from each other. That sounds infinitely preferable to me.”
 

JD put it pretty well right above.

I'm not holding anyone to a standard of perfection, you plainly just did. I asked who defines what's a crime and you began with this rhetorical question: "Have mandated laws against drunk driving or speeding stopped those practices? Obviously not." Perfection is the standard that you created. In black and white.

Yes, private roads sounds like a nightmare. Whoever controls basic utilities would have a stranglehold on everything.

This anarchy stuff is the Flat Earth Society of politics. Find a good country that does it. Everywhere there's anarchy is a shithole.
 
JD put it pretty well right above.

I'm not holding anyone to a standard of perfection, you plainly just did. I asked who defines what's a crime and you began with this rhetorical question: "Have mandated laws against drunk driving or speeding stopped those practices? Obviously not." Perfection is the standard that you created. In black and white.

Yes, private roads sounds like a nightmare. Whoever controls basic utilities would have a stranglehold on everything.

This anarchy stuff is the Flat Earth Society of politics. Find a good country that does it. Everywhere there's anarchy is a shithole.
OK, I’ve had my say. You can have the last word.
 
OK, I’ve had my say. You can have the last word.

You spam the board with anarchy stuff and when it's finally challenged, you go with natural law. Thank you for the realistic solutions.

"Sir, your herd of hogs is devaluing the entire subdivision, could you please remove them or we'll send an enforcer over? Oh. Natural law. Well, phooey, I guess I'll just plant more flowers to mask the smell. Call off the enforcer."

"Sir, you can't sell candy, hustlers and cigarettes to the 9 year olds on the playground. No, it's not good for them. Oh. Free market, natural law? Why didn't you say so? Never mind."
 
@Ponca Dan - the point I was inelegantly trying to make is this: the rejection of a societal authority, government, leads inevitably to individual conflict resolved not on objective merits but on basis of power (physical, economic, persuasion, etc). How does that not violate your natural law first principles? The position you have taken is fundamentally inconsistent.
 
@Ponca Dan - the point I was inelegantly trying to make is this: the rejection of a societal authority, government, leads inevitably to individual conflict resolved not on objective merits but on basis of power (physical, economic, persuasion, etc). How does that not violate your natural law first principles? The position you have taken is fundamentally inconsistent.

That’s the dilemma of the human condition, isn’t it? No matter which political position a person takes it eventually boils down to who has the biggest baddest guns. Why do you suppose that is?

I think it has to do with conflicting natural impulses we all have. On the one hand we insist on freedom, on being left alone, on mind your own business. On the other hand there’s a dread of accepting responsibility for our lives and the actions we take. That, coupled with a genetic laziness to let the other guy do the work if it gets us out of it, leads us to accept any authority that promises to do the dirty work and take responsibility for same. Freedom in an unending tug of war with authority. That’s what it is and what has always been.

The rational end-points of the two political ideologies are total freedom (anarchism) on the one hand and absolute loss of all liberty (totalitarianism) on the other. The intellectual battle is waged between those two “pure” philosophies. The public is dragged back and forth from one side to the other as the war ensues. Because we are naturally inclined to both conflicting viewpoints there is never ending strife. The state offers us free healthcare, great!, we don’t have to bother with it. You mean there will be a penalty, even possibly leading to jail time, if I decline, how awful! Leave me alone!

What was the word you used, inelegantly? That’s the perfect word for my attempts to explain the concept of liberty as utopian. As I understand it utopia is from the Greek and means “doesn’t exist” or “can’t exist.” No one who describes his philosophy as utopian seriously expects society to ever achieve his vision. The totalitarian can’t survive because of the natural desire for freedom that we all have to various degrees. If human beings were sheep totalitarianism would work exactly as planned. By the same token the utopian anarchist (me) recognizes that the human desire to avoid responsibility is a huge roadblock to success. The point is there is no such thing as success, only continual struggle.

So how can the dilemma be resolved? Probably it never will be. What we can do is try to look at things as objectively as possible, and do our part to steer society in the proper direction. I look at philosophy and history and see that the freer individuals are to pursue their goals, the fewer obstacles that have been put in their way, whether that be economic freedom or personal freedom, the more successful that society is. I try to pursuade people toward the anarchist side. Conservatives and liberals (statists) have obviously assumed the opposite approach. They both accept the notion that government can be used for good purposes if only the stupid public could see that they want to use the coercive apparatus for good while the other side wants to use the coercion for evil purposes. That’s the reality of the human condition as I see it.
 
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That’s the dilemma of the human condition, isn’t it? No matter which political position a person takes it eventually boils down to who has the biggest baddest guns. Why do you suppose that is?

I think it has to do with conflicting natural impulses we all have. On the one hand we insist on freedom, on being left alone, on mind your own business. On the other hand there’s a dread of accepting responsibility for our lives and the actions we take. That, coupled with a genetic laziness to let the other guy do the work if it gets us out of it, leads us to accept any authority that promises to do the dirty work and take responsibility for same. Freedom in an unending tug of war with authority. That’s what it is and what has always been.

The rational end-points of the two political ideologies are total freedom (anarchism) on the one hand and absolute loss of all liberty (totalitarianism) on the other. The intellectual battle is waged between those two “pure” philosophies. The public is dragged back and forth from one side to the other as the war ensues. Because we are naturally inclined to both conflicting viewpoints there is never ending strife. The state offers us free healthcare, great!, we don’t have to bother with it. You mean there will be a penalty, even possibly leading to jail time, if I decline, how awful! Leave me alone!

What was the word you used, inelegantly? That’s the perfect word for my attempts to explain the concept of liberty as utopian. As I understand it utopia is from the Greek and means “doesn’t exist” or “can’t exist.” No one who describes his philosophy as utopian seriously expects society to ever achieve his vision. The totalitarian can’t survive because of the natural desire for freedom that we all have to various degrees. If human beings were sheep totalitarianism would work exactly as planned. By the same token the utopian anarchist (me) recognizes that the human desire to avoid responsibility is a huge roadblock to success. The point is there is no such thing as success, only continual struggle.

So how can the dilemma be resolved? Probably it never will be. What we can do is try to look at things as objectively as possible, and do our part to steer society in the proper direction. I look at philosophy and history and see that the freer individuals are to pursue their goals, the fewer obstacles that have been put in their way, whether that be economic freedom or personal freedom, the more successful that society is. I try to pursuade people toward the anarchist side. Conservatives and liberals (statists) have obviously assumed the opposite approach. They both accept the notion that government can be used for good purposes if only the stupid public could see that they want to use the coercive apparatus for good while the other side wants to use the coercion for evil purposes. That’s the reality of the human condition as I see it.
By the way, David, I would love to continue a discussion with you. But Kenny Wayne Shepherd is playing tonight, and I never miss a chance to listen to great blues. I’ll be off the board until tomorrow afternoon. I’ll look to see if you reply at that time.
 
The rational end-points of the two political ideologies are total freedom (anarchism) on the one hand and absolute loss of all liberty (totalitarianism) on the other. The intellectual battle is waged between those two “pure” philosophies. The public is dragged back and forth from one side to the other as the war ensues. Because we are naturally inclined to both conflicting viewpoints there is never ending strife. The state offers us free healthcare, great!, we don’t have to bother with it. You mean there will be a penalty, even possibly leading to jail time, if I decline, how awful! Leave me alone!

What was the word you used, inelegantly? That’s the perfect word for my attempts to explain the concept of liberty as utopian. As I understand it utopia is from the Greek and means “doesn’t exist” or “can’t exist.” No one who describes his philosophy as utopian seriously expects society to ever achieve his vision. The totalitarian can’t survive because of the natural desire for freedom that we all have to various degrees. If human beings were sheep totalitarianism would work exactly as planned. By the same token the utopian anarchist (me) recognizes that the human desire to avoid responsibility is a huge roadblock to success. The point is there is no such thing as success, only continual struggle.

The rational, logical thing to do in evaluating real world, non-utopian policy issues facing us would be to avoid doing so from either of the absolutist extremities that you point out.

It is irrational to evaluate and propose solutions to problems facing us from a perspective of something you never seriously expect will ever be achieved.
 
the rejection of a societal authority, government, leads inevitably to individual conflict resolved not on objective merits but on basis of power (physical, economic, persuasion, etc).
Well put, but is also a reality that the acceptance of a societal authority, government, leads inevitably to conflict not on objective merits, but on the basis of power.

The purveyor of the vast majority of death and destruction that has ever occurred on this planet has been done by the governments of people in the name of conflict and power. And we not only get to watch it happen, we also get forced into it by our governments. The governments give us "reasons" it has to happen so that we will support whatever it is the people in control want to do.
 
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The rational, logical thing to do in evaluating real world, non-utopian policy issues facing us would be to avoid doing so from either of the absolutist extremities that you point out.
I'd argue there is always merit in starting in the extremes and seeing how far one must deviate to reach compromise and ultimately a solution. It's refusing to budge from the extreme that's dangerous.
 
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