Importance of border security

[Medic007]

Picture a human trafficker from Mexico that for years has developed processes and techniques for getting Hondurans and Guatemalans into the US from our southern border. He has made millions of dollars by plying his trade. Now the US has stepped up efforts to end his profession. What do you think he’ll do, just throw up his hands in despair and say “oh, well, it was a nice run while it lasted.” Or will he look for another method for transport? One avenue might be to have the caravans like we are seeing coming up through Mexico instead head to coastal cities to board boats that will take them up one of our coasts, put them inrafts a few miles out to sea and point them in the right direction. Arizona and New Mexico will no longer be the destination. Northern California or Oregon or Washington State will be. Those areas are already promising to be sanctuaries. Why wouldn’t a trafficker do that?

This is nothing more than a thought experiment. An interesting concept. It certainly not worth anybody getting their knickers in a wad.

I don't know Dan. So we should keep the southern border unsecure so people don't have to innovate costlier and more difficult ways to enter the country illegally? Not sure that line of thinking makes any sense.

I'm sure it's dirt cheap to operate boats from the San Diego area up to northern Cali, Oregon, and Washington. Traffickers have probably already purchased boats and ships in anticipation of this new tactic.

 

[Ponca Dan]

I don't know Dan. So we should keep the southern border unsecure so people don't have to innovate costlier and more difficult ways to enter the country illegally? Not sure that line of thinking makes any sense.

I'm sure it's dirt cheap to operate boats from the San Diego area up to northern Cali, Oregon, and Washington. Traffickers have probably already purchased boats and ships in anticipation of this new tactic.

I guess the point being made is that people will innovate. A wall may stop the inflow for awhile, but human ingenuity always finds a way. Once it has been figured out how to overcome the wall as an obstacle the wall becomes meaningless, a very expensive eyesore. The boat lift idea is something that popped into my head as an example. And I’m not a very imaginative guy. There are probably countless people out there right now devising means to counteract a wall. A wall is reactionary, a reaction to a perceived threat. Whether the perception is real is an argument for another time. If we want to keep “those people” out we would be better served taking more positive steps that would put the traffickers out of business for good.

 

[MegaPoke]

I guess the point being made is that people will innovate. A wall may stop the inflow for awhile, but human ingenuity always finds a way. Once it has been figured out how to overcome the wall as an obstacle the wall becomes meaningless, a very expensive eyesore. The boat lift idea is something that popped into my head as an example. And I’m not a very imaginative guy. There are probably countless people out there right now devising means to counteract a wall. A wall is reactionary, a reaction to a perceived threat. Whether the perception is real is an argument for another time. If we want to keep “those people” out we would be better served taking more positive steps that would put the traffickers out of business for good.

This is what I keep hearing regarding ladders and tunnels too.

And yet it seems like digging tunnels is hard and carrying ladders around the desert is impractical.

Likewise traveling from Juarez to a coast and then commissioning a flotilla plan sounds like a hundred times more work.

Nobody has ever claimed a wall is going to be 100% effective. But as a deterrent, it’s obviously a good idea.

 

[Ostatedchi]

A wall is just one component - a vital component - in a defense in depth strategy to prevent illegal entry. How is that lost on everyone opposed to a wall?

The beauty of a wall is that it isn't subject to the whims of future administrations. Yeah, it could be removed. But it takes effort to do that as opposed to the simple catch and release of the prior administration.

 

[JimmyBob]

How is that lost on everyone opposed to a wall?

Opposition is to bad orange man; wall or (insert subject here) has no relevance, only resistance.

 

[MegaPoke]

Opposition is to bad orange man; wall or (insert subject here) has no relevance, only resistance.

100% true. Giving him a campaign promise that big is forbidden.

If he gets it done is spite of the resistance, it’s a double loss though. Big gamble.

 

[Medic007]

I guess the point being made is that people will innovate. A wall may stop the inflow for awhile, but human ingenuity always finds a way. Once it has been figured out how to overcome the wall as an obstacle the wall becomes meaningless, a very expensive eyesore. The boat lift idea is something that popped into my head as an example. And I’m not a very imaginative guy. There are probably countless people out there right now devising means to counteract a wall. A wall is reactionary, a reaction to a perceived threat. Whether the perception is real is an argument for another time. If we want to keep “those people” out we would be better served taking more positive steps that would put the traffickers out of business for good.

Dan, so basically you're saying we should just give up on securing the border and ditch our immigration laws. No matter what we do now, someone is going to find a way so let's just stop the nonsense, right?

Would you be on board with the government using tax dollars to hand benefits when folks cross the border illegally? Cash to get them started, welfare benefits until they get on their feet, free housing, and Medicaid until they can get their own insurance? I'm assuming you already take care of illegal immigrants in your own home.

 

[aix_xpert]

I guess the point being made is that people will innovate. A wall may stop the inflow for awhile, but human ingenuity always finds a way. Once it has been figured out how to overcome the wall as an obstacle the wall becomes meaningless, a very expensive eyesore. The boat lift idea is something that popped into my head as an example. And I’m not a very imaginative guy. There are probably countless people out there right now devising means to counteract a wall. A wall is reactionary, a reaction to a perceived threat. Whether the perception is real is an argument for another time. If we want to keep “those people” out we would be better served taking more positive steps that would put the traffickers out of business for good.

Are you advocating for an interventionist strategy in the corrupt Central American countries where these migrants are coming from? That would be the only way to put the traffickers out of business for good. Seems like all parties (Rs, Ds, and Ls) would agree that a wall to control our own borders is a better strategy than military or political intervention in Venezuela, Honduras, and other 'winning' countries south of Mexico.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Dan, so basically you're saying we should just give up on securing the border and ditch our immigration laws. No matter what we do now, someone is going to find a way so let's just stop the nonsense, right?

Would you be on board with the government using tax dollars to hand benefits when folks cross the border illegally? Cash to get them started, welfare benefits until they get on their feet, free housing, and Medicaid until they can get their own insurance? I'm assuming you already take care of illegal immigrants in your own home.

No, Medic, don't be silly. I advocate against using tax dollars to hand benefits to ANYONE, illegal immigrants included. I thought you would know that about me by now.

As for ditching our immigration policy, yes, I am for that. Reform is desperately needed.

I spoke the other day about how I perceive two categories of immigrants coming from our southern border. The first category is composed of mostly younger single men who are here for the work. They consider themselves to be Mexicans, for instance, have no desire to assimilate, pretty much stay to themselves, go home every opportunity that presents itself. They just came here because they can find people who are willing to hire them. There needs to be a system that allows for those immigrants to cross the border freely without hassle by armed government agents. The other category consists of people who come here to participate in the American dream. They bring their families, assimilate as quickly as immigrants from other countries, start businesses, insist their children learn English, yadda, yadda. We should welcome those people with open arms.

In neither case should we regard them as being inferior to ourselves. Somebody on this board, I don't remember who, repeatedly worries they are brining their "culture of corruption" with them. To a very limited extent that attitude may have some merit. But the overwhelming majority of immigrants do not fit that description, and it is unfair to constantly lump them all together.

 

[Ponca Dan]

Are you advocating for an interventionist strategy in the corrupt Central American countries where these migrants are coming from? That would be the only way to put the traffickers out of business for good. Seems like all parties (Rs, Ds, and Ls) would agree that a wall to control our own borders is a better strategy than military or political intervention in Venezuela, Honduras, and other 'winning' countries south of Mexico.

Oh, God no, I'm not advocating for an interventionist policy! That's the last thing we should do. The proper thing for America to do is be an example to anyone that wants to observe how a free society can prosper. An example for which other countries should aspire. Free people freely interacting with each other as well as foreigners. Trade with citizens of any country that want to trade with us. Be the exceptional country we have always believed ourselves to be. Make ourselves something everybody else wants to be. I'm sure most on this board will find this answer as unacceptable. But that's pretty much all I've got.

 

[HighStickHarry]

No, Medic, don't be silly. I advocate against using tax dollars to hand benefits to ANYONE, illegal immigrants included. I thought you would know that about me by now.

As for ditching our immigration policy, yes, I am for that. Reform is desperately needed.

I spoke the other day about how I perceive two categories of immigrants coming from our southern border. The first category is composed of mostly younger single men who are here for the work. They consider themselves to be Mexicans, for instance, have no desire to assimilate, pretty much stay to themselves, go home every opportunity that presents itself. They just came here because they can find people who are willing to hire them. There needs to be a system that allows for those immigrants to cross the border freely without hassle by armed government agents. The other category consists of people who come here to participate in the American dream. They bring their families, assimilate as quickly as immigrants from other countries, start businesses, insist their children learn English, yadda, yadda. We should welcome those people with open arms.

In neither case should we regard them as being inferior to ourselves. Somebody on this board, I don't remember who, repeatedly worries they are brining their "culture of corruption" with them. To a very limited extent that attitude may have some merit. But the overwhelming majority of immigrants do not fit that description, and it is unfair to constantly lump them all together.

Just those two groups huh. No other scenarios you can think of?

 

[aix_xpert]

Oh, God no, I'm not advocating for an interventionist policy! That's the last thing we should do. The proper thing for America to do is be an example to anyone that wants to observe how a free society can prosper. An example for which other countries should aspire. Free people freely interacting with each other as well as foreigners. Trade with citizens of any country that want to trade with us. Be the exceptional country we have always believed ourselves to be. Make ourselves something everybody else wants to be. I'm sure most on this board will find this answer as unacceptable. But that's pretty much all I've got.

We do all these things. The American standard of living is higher than anywhere else in the world. But we should be showing other countries how and why capitalism is better, not opening our borders and inviting those who want change to just hike on over.

 

[Medic007]

No, Medic, don't be silly. I advocate against using tax dollars to hand benefits to ANYONE, illegal immigrants included. I thought you would know that about me by now.

As for ditching our immigration policy, yes, I am for that. Reform is desperately needed.

I spoke the other day about how I perceive two categories of immigrants coming from our southern border. The first category is composed of mostly younger single men who are here for the work. They consider themselves to be Mexicans, for instance, have no desire to assimilate, pretty much stay to themselves, go home every opportunity that presents itself. They just came here because they can find people who are willing to hire them. There needs to be a system that allows for those immigrants to cross the border freely without hassle by armed government agents. The other category consists of people who come here to participate in the American dream. They bring their families, assimilate as quickly as immigrants from other countries, start businesses, insist their children learn English, yadda, yadda. We should welcome those people with open arms.

In neither case should we regard them as being inferior to ourselves. Somebody on this board, I don't remember who, repeatedly worries they are brining their "culture of corruption" with them. To a very limited extent that attitude may have some merit. But the overwhelming majority of immigrants do not fit that description, and it is unfair to constantly lump them all together.

Hmmmmmmm. Where does the criminal element fit into this? And how do these poor immigrants get a start in a country where they have nothing? Live on the streets? Or does the American dream just magically appear for them in your version?

 

[JimmyBob]

Or does the American dream just magically appear for them in your version?

Goat herder's magic wand.

 

[tlwwake]