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I want Bernie Sanders to be the next President, let's debate

Funny BC I know a lot of rich/wealthy/middle class folks without cable, smart phones, and some without tvs. I also know some millennials who support Bernie who think $50k isn't a livable wage.

Most Sanders-backers -- and many lower-income types -- when they mean "equality," they mean they should be entitled to having the nice things that the upper class has. But yet, many aren't willing to get the education or do the work (or they haven't the skills to do the work) of people living a better life.

Memmett, I, too, teach. And I teach at a school that is very low socio-economic. I see a lot of kids who have no work ethic, don't really care about their grades (until the end of the semester), and all they care about is getting high and getting laid. Then, many of them - after they get into the real world - complain about the pay they're getting because they are stuck working at Walmart or some other dead end job.

To be continued. Right now it's time for The Walking Dead.
 
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Does anyone remember the woody woodpecker cartoon where he farts off when he should be preparing for winter and all the other animals are storing food? Winter comes and the other animals have to bail him out.

Sure seems like there are a lot of woody woodpeckers out there. I feel like an animal bailing out all those peckers. Since I have no trust fund and grew up in a small town with parents who lived paycheck to paycheck, I have little sympathy for the peckers.

So, when someone like Bernie shows up and starts talking income inequality and complains about Wall Street and the rich having all these advantages, I'm listening. But when he starts talking about fixing the problems by increasing taxes on the middle class, I get pretty upset.

My kids may feel differently than me because they'll grow up in a fantasy land and one day white guilt may take over. Maybe that's a good thing because I just have a hard time feeling sorry for a lot of people.
 
Your first link includes college funding in the % of GDP spending. The United States does have a fantastic post-secondary system. But, even the link you shared shows that the U.S. is below the OCED average when it comes strictly elementary and secondary funding as far as % of GDP funding goes.

Your second link is a 15 year old study, and it even says that there are funding disparities depending on what metro you're looking at. It uses New York City as an example of higher suburban funding than urban and Chicago as one that does it the other way around. I can find studies saying that there is a disparity between the two. Here are a couple: http://www.efc.gwu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/disparaties.pdf and http://www.schoolfundingfairness.org/National_Report_Card.pdf
Are you suggesting that more funding for inner city schools will solve the problem? Because if it did, me and all my conservative buddies would support it.

How about we reduce welfare by 5% and give it to teachers who merit it? Would you support that?
 
Most Sanders-backers -- and many lower-income types -- when they mean "equality," they mean they should be entitled to having the nice things that the upper class has. But yet, many aren't willing to get the education or do the work (or they haven't the skills to do the work) of people living a better life.

Memmot, I, too, teach. And I teach at a school that is very low socio-economic. I see a lot of kids who have no work ethic, don't really care about their grades (until the end of the semester), and all they care about is getting high and getting laid. Then, many of them - after they get into the real world - complain about the pay they're getting because they are stuck working at Walmart or some other dead end job.

To be continued. Right now it's time fr The Walking Dead.
I think you grossly misunderstand income inequality... Read a little Nick Hanauer. Well worth it...
 
Little test for you... Who said it?

“business leaders [must] recognize that their behavior is suicide, that it is suicide long term. To survive, long-term, they have to start opposing, rather than promoting, corporate welfare.”

“We’re headed toward a two-tiered society—a society that’s destroying opportunities for the disadvantaged and creating welfare for the rich,” XXXXXX said. “Misguided policies are creating a permanent underclass, crippling our economy and corrupting the business community.”
 
Little test for you... Who said it?

“business leaders [must] recognize that their behavior is suicide, that it is suicide long term. To survive, long-term, they have to start opposing, rather than promoting, corporate welfare.”

“We’re headed toward a two-tiered society—a society that’s destroying opportunities for the disadvantaged and creating welfare for the rich,” XXXXXX said. “Misguided policies are creating a permanent underclass, crippling our economy and corrupting the business community.”

Nvm
 
Another issue is that many in the "liberal" camp demonized these people who make over $200,000. I got news for you, there are a LOT of households that make over $200k a year. My wife and I are both teachers and our household income is over $100,000. And that's in Texas, where the pay for teachers isn't even in the top third of the nation in teacher's pay.

Here's something that will bring a splash of reality to your face. Watch some of those shows like Love It or List It, or Beachfront Bargain Hunt. These are people with regular professional jobs who are paying over $500k sometimes for these houses. These aren't high rollers on these shows, just people with good professional jobs. But yet many on the left side of the political spectrum think these people should pitch in a lot more to the kitty. It's the middle class and upper middle class that will suffer the most under these "progressive" budget ideas, because there's a lot more of them out there to tax than many people realize.
 
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I'm sure I'm one of the few Oklahoma State alums on this board that feels that way. For some demographics: I'm 26. I majored in Secondary Education with an option in Social Studies. I'm currently in my 4th year as a public school teacher in the OKC metro. I'd like to chat with some fellow Cowboys who have drastically different political views than myself.

My main reasons for being Pro-Sanders:
  • Income inequality, which is staggering, is a major problem that is the root of an incredible amount of issues in the United States. He seems to be the only candidate willing to combat that. It has increased under Obama (and it will do the same should Clinton win) and I do not trust that any GOP candidate, that will keep the Bush era tax cuts, or lower them even more, eliminate estate tax, etc... will do nothing but increase it.
  • He seems passionate about repealing Citizens United. Which would at least be a step towards the United States moving away from being so beholden to corporate interests.
  • He is the only candidate to consistently mention education (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not crazy about the idea of free tuition at all public universities. But, the public education system of the United States is decaying. A democracy implies that there is an educated citizenry, and given the vast resources of the United States, to rank 14th in education (or thereabouts, depending on your source it can be lower or a tad higher) is embarrassing to me. Maybe I'm biased as a teacher, but I believe education to be THE most important aspect of society. A building block of civilization, imperative to a state continuing on. And the ultimate solution to so many problems. I don't believe you can legislate away 400 year old problems like racism, prejudice and poverty and the crime and multitude of problems that come with those. I think the only solution is the long one. To invest in the education of the young, with the the hope that when the time comes for them to be in control of the country, that the investment pays off.
  • This is a much more personal issue, but religion does not seem to play any part in his politics. Which is a major bonus for me. As a non-religious (as far as organized religions go) person. I don't like the idea of a commander-in-chief, who embraces a religion that believes the end of days will come. I don't feel comfortable with politicians with such a fatalistic world view. It seems like it would skew your perspective and decision making.
  • I am in favor of a higher minimum wage, and of job creation through improving the United States' infrastructure. I'm also of the opinion that if you are an employable individual, capable of working a full time job, a working cog in society, you deserve a livable salary. Is 15 dollars the right number? I don't know. But, it isn't $7.25.
  • Any other reasons would be less tangible. More gut feeling, etc... I do not like Hillary (crook, sneak, etc...) at all, to the point that I would probably vote Kasich and possibly Trump before I'd vote for her if it came down to that in a general election. To sum it up, I guess, Sanders just seems the most genuine to me.
Anyways, those are my 1:30 a.m., Crown Royal fueled thoughts.
People climb walls and dodge bullets as well as risk the high seas aboard little more than inner tube boats to escape the kind of world you and Bernie Sanders want to build here. Meanwhile, here in capitalist America we're pondering the building of walls to keep millions of people out. No thanks. Keep your socialism and kindly insert it where the sun does not shine.
 
I don't think one can actually debate with someone naive enough to even consider Bernie as an option. You obviously have such little grasp of basic economics that nothing anyone would say would make sense to you.

Not only that, but how is Bernie going to "repeal" Citizens United?

It's a Constitutional decision of the Supreme Court.

He's starting from so many false premises that it's not really worth the time and effort.
 
Not only that, but how is Bernie going to "repeal" Citizens United?

It's a Constitutional decision of the Supreme Court.

He's starting from so many false premises that it's not really worth the time and effort.

Well, he couldn't make an executive decision or anything. But, if he's president he would nominate the next justice, which as we all know would shift the balance. He would at least try to amend it, and thus repeal it. Is that not true?
 
Well, he couldn't make an executive decision or anything. But, if he's president he would nominate the next justice, which as we all know would shift the balance. He would at least try to amend it, and thus repeal it. Is that not true?

No. It was a SCOTUS decision. There is nothing the President can do. It would require them hearing another case.
 
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Legislators cannot propose legislation that gets rid of it? It is set in stone forever?

Legislation can't get rid of a constitutionally guaranteed right. Now you're talking about a constitutional amendment.
 
Legislation can't get rid of a constitutionally guaranteed right. Now you're talking about a constitutional amendment.

Right, I said that above. I misused the word legislate. Amendments have already been proposed in the past that failed. I would assume a Sanders presidency would continue to push for more attempts.
 
Right, I said that above. I misused the word legislate. Amendments have already been proposed in the past that failed. I would assume a Sanders presidency would continue to push for more attempts.

I forgot to add something: Welcome aboard.
 
There's a better chance of the SCOTUS deciding a case which overturns Citizens United v approving a Constitutional amendment.
 
Well, he couldn't make an executive decision or anything. But, if he's president he would nominate the next justice, which as we all know would shift the balance. He would at least try to amend it, and thus repeal it. Is that not true?

It's a first Amendment decision.

What's he going to amend?

Yes, if he is President, he would nominate the next Justice that retires or dies (IMO, Obama will nominate and the Senate will confirm Scalia's replacement...a likely moderate previously confirmed for lower court seats). The mostly likely to retire during his time in office would be Ginsburg. She was already on the dissenting side. It won't shift the balance much for that particular decision.

So the use of the terms Bernie is passionate about repealing Citizens United evidences a lack of understanding and a false premise that he has any ability to do so.
 
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You are correct, and I meant to mention that earlier. Congress will not enact anything at all, unless these next two election cycles drastically change the makeup of the senate, and most likely it won't. But, I'm still in favor of a Sanders presidency that is stonewalled, than one with Hillary, or with most GOP candidates, who have the majority, in particular, Cruz.

In other posts you said:

1. You understand raising minimum wage doesn't really address income disparity efficiently or effectively. You even said you didn't have an objection to income disparity except as to the margins at the highest level.

2. You don't really buy off on the whole free college thing that is a center piece of his campaign.

We've addressed "repealing" Citizens United.

Here, you seemingly admit that he likely won't be able to see through any of his proposals whatsoever.....

.....and I'm sold by that argument. Gridlock is good, IMO. The less they can get done in D.C., the better off the rest of the nation is. Maybe I've become too cynical in my old age.
 
Wow this thread stays civil and there is no show ignored content. Imagine that...
 
I think everyone can acknowledge the current spending to elect our officials is out of control and is the basis for much of the corruption. That said, changing Freedom of Speach laws isn't how you fix it.

You attack the reason why money can lead to so much corruption and that is the power the government has. If we reduce the government's power, people wouldn't try to buy politicians. The ways you do this:

Term limits for Congress

Stop increasing, and start removing regulations.

Send the power back to the states where it was intended.
 
I'm for funding EDUCATION. When a child walks in the door in an American classroom, he/she should be getting an education as good as any nation in the world. Which is not even remotely the case in many parts of this country.

When it comes to education, let's get this on the table right off the bat: The reason we rank behind some countries is because ALL American kids go to school, not just the best and the brightest, as is the case in some countries. Secondly, because of our freedoms, our kids have lots of reasons not to care about their education. Drugs, television, video games and other technology, as well as having parents who don't care or can't stay on their kids to do their work as well as an assortment of many other things play a large part.

Also, our schools put one thing in front of everything else: money. Our schools now bend over backwards to keep kids in school. In my 20 years as a teacher, I can't remember a student being expelled for more than three days. Now we place them in alternative schools, which waters down their education.

If a student has a baby (I've had three thus year so far that I know of. I'm sure there are others who have already had children), and struggles to make it to school because their duties as a parent, we cater to them by creating another type of alternative school where they can come and take their core classes and attend school maybe four hours a day (it differs). This further waters down an education. All so our school districts can keep their attendance numbers up, because dropouts and lower attendance means less federal dollars coming in.

Then, of course, we have systems in place for kids who skip on a regular basis or are too slow to be able to pass a class with any rigor whatsoever. I have just over 110 students. Of those, I have seven who have over 50 absences. But guess what? If they go to attendance school, they can make up those absences. This further waters down the system.

Kids who can't pass the class? They can take "credit by exam" and magically pass after not learning diddly squat in my class. It happens a lot. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a kid graduate and wonder "how the heck did he get a diploma." Once again, watering down the system in the name of money.

You want to know what's the most important thing we do for our students in the minds of our administration? Make sure kids are fed. This is at a high school. We were in the middle of sending students home last year due to a severe snow storm and our administration waited until after lunch to make sure students got to eat.

When your priorities are out of whack, you're going to end up with a broken education system like ours. And it's not due to too little funding, it's due to districts administrators not wanting to lose the money they have coming in from the Feds. And speaking of district administrators, you ought to see how many people work in the admin buildings at some districts. It's astronomical how much money is being poured into administration for people who don't even teach.
 
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I felt the Burn this morning but I think it was from the jalapenos I ate last night.
 
Walls-600-LI-594x425.jpg
 
Strong to quite strong


A tech CEO feels Berned.

I agree with Bernie Sanders. The economy is rigged. In fact, it’s what my father, who is very conservative, taught me about life. Some find it surprising because the general position of liberals seems to be that conservatives don’t realize, or won’t acknowledge, this rigged economy. But my dad’s advice to me time and time again was that the world was rigged and the only way I could make it was to work harder than the people who were in charge of the rigging.

A few years ago I was walking through Harvard Square when a woman holding flyers for Elizabeth Warren stepped in front of me. She asked if I thought the government should pay off student’s debts. I don’t think the government should, but, then again I never had student loans. No, it wasn’t because I was from a wealthy family. I never had student loans because I worked every semester I was in college, and during some summers, I worked two jobs. I did this because I thought the world was rigged against me.

I missed out on a lot, because I worked so much. I didn’t have the life like many of the college students I’ve hired in the last few years. They study what they love — philosophy, political science, art, regardless of whether or not they have good job prospects. They travel. Mostly they seem to go to Vietnam and Cambodia. They eat out a lot more than I did at their age. They know all the trendy restaurants and hot bars.

When I got out of college, I lived well below my means, saving $25,000 so I could start my first business. That business failed miserably. I ended up losing over $50,000 total. It took three years to pay off the credit card debt I wracked up.

Over the next decade, I started three more businesses. Two of which failed. For one of them, a video yellow pages product I built with a friend in 2007, I used to take my vacation days from my “real” job and go door to door, selling video listings to small businesses. I lost a lot of my own money, as my disposable income never went to travel or luxury goods of any kind. It went to business ideas.

I kept at it because I believe, much like Bernie, that the world was rigged against me. I spent every evening after my day job working on side projects, learning new skills, reading. I didn’t own a TV for a long time and, even to this day, I’ve never seen any of the classic shows people like to discuss: The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, Game Of Thrones. I was working while they were on.



When I finally had a company that was successful, the experience of running it was more stressful than you could ever imagine. I had to deal with some really rough things. There was the time when, on the day we were supposed to close our Series C funding round, the lead investor called and said they weren’t going to wire the money. We had six weeks of cash left, and now I had to figure out what to do. There was the time when two of my executives quit within 10 days of each other, making my board and employees all wonder what was going on, and if there was something detrimental going on at the company that I wasn’t telling them.
There was a board meeting where, I took so many rapid fire shots from board members that one of my executives told me afterwards that he would never want to be a CEO and go through something like that. There were things that I can’t write about publicly, but that, if you have ever run a company, you know what I’m talking about. It really sucks to be in charge sometimes.

Despite the strain that entrepreneurship put on my finances, my health, and my personal relationships, I kept at it because I wanted to be successful. And eventually, yes, I became a millionaire. It only took 15 years.

Along the way, I learned a lot. I created over 100 jobs. And in the end I helped build something useful for thousands of companies around the world. But when I hear Bernie speak, I feel like I’m the problem with America. I’m one of those millionaires he mentions who should pay more taxes. I’m the bad guy. I’m the white male who is only successful because everything was handed to me. I don’t deserve the money I made. All the things I sacrificed don’t matter. The additional stress I was under doesn’t matter. The risks I took don’t matter. According to Bernie, the world needs fewer people like me, and more people like the smart Yale student who majors in something useless, travels the world, and then graduates with $100,000 in debt that people like me should pay off via higher taxes.

Yes, the economy is rigged. Any economic structure will favor some at the expense of others. But the wonderful thing about America is that if you are willing to make the right sacrifices, you can achieve whatever you want. Unfortunately, we’ve come to believe that achievement should be easy. Changing that attitude is the first step towards making yourself more successful.

Rob May is the co-founder and CEO of Talla, a Massachusetts-based developer of an intelligent virtual assistant for recruiting teams.
 
I’m the white male who is only successful because everything was handed to me. I don’t deserve the money I made. All the things I sacrificed don’t matter.

This is getting real damn old real damn fast.
 
When it comes to education, let's get this on the table right off the bat: The reason we rank behind some countries is because ALL American kids go to school, not just the best and the brightest, as is the case in some countries. Secondly, because of our freedoms, our kids have lots of reasons not to care about their education. Drugs, television, video games and other technology, as well as having parents who don't care or can't stay on their kids to do their work as well as an assortment of many other things play a large part.

Also, our schools put one thing in front of everything else: money. Our schools now bend over backwards to keep kids in school. In my 20 years as a teacher, I can't remember a student being expelled for more than three days. Now we place them in alternative schools, which waters down their education.

If a student has a baby (I've had three thus year so far that I know of. I'm sure there are others who have already had children), and struggles to make it to school because their duties as a parent, we cater to them by creating another type of alternative school where they can come and take their core classes and attend school maybe four hours a day (it differs). This further waters down an education. All so our school districts can keep their attendance numbers up, because dropouts and lower attendance means less federal dollars coming in.

Then, of course, we have systems in lace for kids who skip on a regular basis or are too slow to be able to pass a class with any rigor whatsoever. I have just over 110 students. Of those, I have seven who have over 50 absences. But guess what? If they go to attendance school, they can make up those absences. This further waters down the system.

Kids who can't pass the class? They can take "credit by exam" and magically pass after not learning diddly squat in my class. It happens a lot. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a kid graduate and wonder "how the heck did he get a diploma." Once again, watering down the system in the name of money.

You want to know what's the most important thing we do for our students in the minds of our administration? Make sure kids are fed. This is at a high school. We were in the middle of sending students home last year due to a sever snow storm and our administration waited until after lunch to make sure students got to eat.

When your priorities are out of whack, you're going to end up with a broken education system like ours. And it's not due too little funding, it's due to districts administrators not wanting to lose the money they have coming in from the Feds. And speaking of district administrators, you ought to see how many people work in the admin buildings at some districts. It's astronomical how much money is being poured into administration for people who don't even teach.

This deserves a thread all to itself. You're speaking with clarity, accuracy, and to points that people with an agenda, for legislation for example, omit from a truthful representation of facts and/or positions.
 
My feverant hope is that either Trump or Bernie gets elected and the system implodes. The US Balkanizes to a degree (minus military, transportation ie FAA and interstate commerce), and like regions break off into working functioning districts. I don't care about say NY or CA and can almost guarantee the reverse is true. If they want to issue illegals drivers liscense that's their prerogative, doesn't mean OK or TX should honor them, and so on.

.


This would be the best thing to have happen in our country. That, or something radical like "States' Rights" being implemented.
 
When it comes to education, let's get this on the table right off the bat: The reason we rank behind some countries is because ALL American kids go to school, not just the best and the brightest, as is the case in some countries. Secondly, because of our freedoms, our kids have lots of reasons not to care about their education. Drugs, television, video games and other technology, as well as having parents who don't care or can't stay on their kids to do their work as well as an assortment of many other things play a large part.

Also, our schools put one thing in front of everything else: money. Our schools now bend over backwards to keep kids in school. In my 20 years as a teacher, I can't remember a student being expelled for more than three days. Now we place them in alternative schools, which waters down their education.

If a student has a baby (I've had three thus year so far that I know of. I'm sure there are others who have already had children), and struggles to make it to school because their duties as a parent, we cater to them by creating another type of alternative school where they can come and take their core classes and attend school maybe four hours a day (it differs). This further waters down an education. All so our school districts can keep their attendance numbers up, because dropouts and lower attendance means less federal dollars coming in.

Then, of course, we have systems in lace for kids who skip on a regular basis or are too slow to be able to pass a class with any rigor whatsoever. I have just over 110 students. Of those, I have seven who have over 50 absences. But guess what? If they go to attendance school, they can make up those absences. This further waters down the system.

Kids who can't pass the class? They can take "credit by exam" and magically pass after not learning diddly squat in my class. It happens a lot. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a kid graduate and wonder "how the heck did he get a diploma." Once again, watering down the system in the name of money.

You want to know what's the most important thing we do for our students in the minds of our administration? Make sure kids are fed. This is at a high school. We were in the middle of sending students home last year due to a sever snow storm and our administration waited until after lunch to make sure students got to eat.

When your priorities are out of whack, you're going to end up with a broken education system like ours. And it's not due too little funding, it's due to districts administrators not wanting to lose the money they have coming in from the Feds. And speaking of district administrators, you ought to see how many people work in the admin buildings at some districts. It's astronomical how much money is being poured into administration for people who don't even teach.


Great post and first-hand insight, BH!
 
When it comes to education, let's get this on the table right off the bat: The reason we rank behind some countries is because ALL American kids go to school, not just the best and the brightest, as is the case in some countries. Secondly, because of our freedoms, our kids have lots of reasons not to care about their education. Drugs, television, video games and other technology, as well as having parents who don't care or can't stay on their kids to do their work as well as an assortment of many other things play a large part.

Also, our schools put one thing in front of everything else: money. Our schools now bend over backwards to keep kids in school. In my 20 years as a teacher, I can't remember a student being expelled for more than three days. Now we place them in alternative schools, which waters down their education.

If a student has a baby (I've had three thus year so far that I know of. I'm sure there are others who have already had children), and struggles to make it to school because their duties as a parent, we cater to them by creating another type of alternative school where they can come and take their core classes and attend school maybe four hours a day (it differs). This further waters down an education. All so our school districts can keep their attendance numbers up, because dropouts and lower attendance means less federal dollars coming in.

Then, of course, we have systems in lace for kids who skip on a regular basis or are too slow to be able to pass a class with any rigor whatsoever. I have just over 110 students. Of those, I have seven who have over 50 absences. But guess what? If they go to attendance school, they can make up those absences. This further waters down the system.

Kids who can't pass the class? They can take "credit by exam" and magically pass after not learning diddly squat in my class. It happens a lot. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a kid graduate and wonder "how the heck did he get a diploma." Once again, watering down the system in the name of money.

You want to know what's the most important thing we do for our students in the minds of our administration? Make sure kids are fed. This is at a high school. We were in the middle of sending students home last year due to a sever snow storm and our administration waited until after lunch to make sure students got to eat.

When your priorities are out of whack, you're going to end up with a broken education system like ours. And it's not due too little funding, it's due to districts administrators not wanting to lose the money they have coming in from the Feds. And speaking of district administrators, you ought to see how many people work in the admin buildings at some districts. It's astronomical how much money is being poured into administration for people who don't even teach.

Thanks for the reply, Superpokes,

I agree with just about everything you wrote, except your first point. I don't think that is a reason why the U.S. ranks lower than many major countries. Of the major countries, I believe they have full enrollment. I don't think there are many Polish, Swiss, Japanese, or S. Korean children that never enroll in school, though I could be wrong. That applies more to countries like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, but those countries don't rank above the U.S. anyways, or even come close.

But, I agree, education spending is very inefficient, just like the majority of the spending of government (and I do get the contradictory nature of me wanting MORE money for the government to spend poorly). And the systems put into place to prevent students from falling to the wayside are poorly implemented and result in an extremely watered down and rudimentary education, and it results in a high school diploma meaning far less than it used to.

And yes, if more money is pumped into the school, will that money be spent well? In some ways, sure. Will some of it go too unneeded administration that make six figures? Absolutely. I hate to be a defeatist, but government inefficiency seems a fact of life. Are there any major countries in the world with more than, oh, 20 million people (let alone 300 million +) that have very small, limited and fiscally conservative governments? I truly don't know. I would guess if they do, they don't spend billions or trillions of dollars funding wars that have no tangible goal or end game. The trillions of dollars spent in Iraq and Afghanistan, with what positive results there or here? That's inefficient too. And if the two evils are inefficient education spending and inefficient military spending, I know which one I'd prefer.

But, while politicians figure out ways to consolidate districts, to tighten budgets, and eliminate unneeded spending, it is the current students who are the collateral damage, while they sit in substandard facilities, have a lack of desks (something I am dealing with currently), a lack of textbooks (another current problem in my district), and have under qualified teachers teaching them (at least in my state, where teachers are moving out as quick as they can).

Early childhood education is the major one, to me. By the time they are 12 or 13, it is too late for many students, there is no switch you can flip, they've already made the mental decision that school isn't for them, won't result in any rewards further down the road, etc...mThey have so many gaps already, it's impossible for secondary teachers to catch them up in one semester or school year. And it takes a lot of self-determination to improve, something that is hard to generate in young people, especially when they are sitting in classes with 30 other students and one teacher. Or as you said, have tons of other stimuli to occupy their time besides school work.

Kids that grow up in a poverty stricken environment, with an undereducated single parent, already have the deck stacked against them. Are their kids who can break out of this and be extremely successful, with hard work? Of course. There are a lot of examples. But, there are many who won't, and are going to do nothing to perpetuate the system and let it grow and grow. Would diverting some defense spending to education or raising education funding by 5 or 10% fix all of these problems? Of course not. Will it allow more children to escape the poverty cycle, and put forward more productive citizens into society. I believe so. Is that worth the money? That's what is up for debate.

As an aside, I teach in Oklahoma and I've been a teacher for four years, and I have had a handful of students suspended for more than 3 days. A few for drug possession, a few for severe fights, one for striking a teacher.
 
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Legislators cannot propose legislation that gets rid of it? It is set in stone forever?
That's correct. I guess they could propose something that is a "work around". Or a constitutional amendment could be proposed.

Or some new case could come before the USSC and they could rule in a way that somehow overturns portions of Citizen's United.
 
Are you suggesting that more funding for inner city schools will solve the problem? Because if it did, me and all my conservative buddies would support it.

How about we reduce welfare by 5% and give it to teachers who merit it? Would you support that?

I kind of alluded to this in the last post. I don't think this is a problem that can be fixed. There are just too many variables with a large population. Do I believe it could improve the lives of some students, and some students would receive a better education and be able to achieve more in life? Yes. It's up to the individual to decide what the number of students impacted needs to be to rationalize the increase in funding.

In other posts you said:

1. You understand raising minimum wage doesn't really address income disparity efficiently or effectively. You even said you didn't have an objection to income disparity except as to the margins at the highest level.

2. You don't really buy off on the whole free college thing that is a center piece of his campaign.

We've addressed "repealing" Citizens United.

Here, you seemingly admit that he likely won't be able to see through any of his proposals whatsoever.....

.....and I'm sold by that argument. Gridlock is good, IMO. The less they can get done in D.C., the better off the rest of the nation is. Maybe I've become too cynical in my old age.

I think you are being pedantic about my use of the word 'repealing'. I think given his rhetoric, a Sanders presidency would have increased efforts (in whatever ways) in having Citizens United reversed. And I believe this a problem with politics in general, certainly not just a GOP problem.

And yes, I don't agree with everything Sanders proposes. I doubt there are very many U.S. citizens that fall perfectly in line with any candidates policies and platforms. But, I believe in his convictions (which I don't with many candidates), he has been consistent on his stances for decades and there is a certain je ne sais quoi to him that drew me in. Are some people voting for Sanders, because they are young, naive, and think this will create some sort of utopia funded by the wealthy? Yep. Am I one of them, I don't believe so. Am I still voting for Sanders next Tuesday?(as an independent, by the way). Yes.
 
I kind of alluded to this in the last post. I don't think this is a problem that can be fixed. There are just too many variables with a large population. Do I believe it could improve the lives of some students, and some students would receive a better education and be able to achieve more in life? Yes. It's up to the individual to decide what the number of students impacted needs to be to rationalize the increase in funding.



I think you are being pedantic about my use of the word 'repealing'. I think given his rhetoric, a Sanders presidency would have increased efforts (in whatever ways) in having Citizens United reversed. And I believe this a problem with politics in general, certainly not just a GOP problem.

And yes, I don't agree with everything Sanders proposes. I doubt there are very many U.S. citizens that fall perfectly in line with any candidates policies and platforms. But, I believe in his convictions (which I don't with many candidates), he has been consistent on his stances for decades and there is a certain je ne sais quoi to him that drew me in. Are some people voting for Sanders, because they are young, naive, and think this will create some sort of utopia funded by the wealthy? Yep. Am I one of them, I don't believe so. Am I still voting for Sanders next Tuesday?(as an independent, by the way). Yes.

Words have meaning....you used "repeal". I didn't. Your use of that word reflects a lack of understanding about the process and the SCOTUS decision, IMO.

If you really understand the basis for the decision in Citizens United, you also understand that there isn't a legislative "work around" to the core holding based upon the 1st Amendment. There's either Constitutional Amendment or reversal based upon a new case before the court.

I'd propose that choosing a candidate based upon a certain je ne sais quoi that captivates you is just as naive as voting for someone because you think they will create some sort of utopia funded by the wealthy. Vote for whomever you want. That's one of the things that makes America great. I don't know whom I'll be voting for on Super Tuesday in the Democratic presidential primary (as an Independent/unaffiliated voter registrant as well). I do appreciate the Democrats opening their primaries to Independents here. Wish the Republicans would do the same.
 
Again, maybe I'm using the wrong verbs to get my point across. There have already been proposed amendments (some filed by Sanders) to overturn it. Obviously they have failed.

I don't think you're using the wrong verbs....I just think you don't fully understand the core holding of the SCOTUS decision and really believe there is some other legislative way to work around the decision other than Constitutional Amendment (which has already failed and is doomed to further failure if advanced again, IMO) or further SCOTUS decision in a new case overruling Citizens United.
 
Words have meaning....you used "repeal". I didn't. Your use of that word reflects a lack of understanding about the process and the SCOTUS decision, IMO.

If you really understand the basis for the decision in Citizens United, you also understand that there isn't a legislative "work around" to the core holding based upon the 1st Amendment. There's either Constitutional Amendment or reversal based upon a new case before the court.

I'd propose that choosing a candidate based upon a certain je ne sais quoi that captivates you is just as naive as voting for someone because you think they will create some sort of utopia funded by the wealthy. Vote for whomever you want. That's one of the things that makes America great. I don't know whom I'll be voting for on Super Tuesday in the Democratic presidential primary (as an Independent/unaffiliated voter registrant as well). I do appreciate the Democrats opening their primaries to Independents here. Wish the Republicans would do the same.


Of all the things I've brought up in this entire thread, you pick out one phrase and decide that is the sole reason why I am voting for him? Not in fighting extreme income inequality, not in his promotion of public education over private, or the increase to the minimum wage. Or his consistent stance on many problems (for decades) that are important to me (mass incarceration, the failure of the drug war, systemic prejudice in America, fighting childhood poverty, his vote not to invade Iraq in 2003, my hope that he'll be a candidate who won't spend trillions of dollars on a war that can't be won, improving the United States' infrastructure, and creating jobs). Are those good enough reasons for you? Can we discuss those?

I don't think you're using the wrong verbs....I just think you don't fully understand the core holding of the SCOTUS decision and really believe there is some other legislative way to work around the decision other than Constitutional Amendment (which has already failed and is doomed to further failure if advanced again, IMO) or further SCOTUS decision in a new case overruling Citizens United.

Obviously, I won't change your mind on my understanding of the whole thing. And that's fine, I'm not all that interested in doing so. But, given that several states are calling for an amendment, and the rhetoric against it is increasing, I don't think any proposed amendments are as doomed to fail as you do.
 
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Of all the things I've brought up in this entire thread, you pick out one phrase and decide that is the sole reason why I am voting for him? Not in fighting extreme income inequality, not in his promotion of public education over private, or the increase to the minimum wage. Or his consistent stance on many problems (for decades) that are important to me (mass incarceration, the failure of the drug war, systemic prejudice in America, fighting childhood poverty, his vote not to invade Iraq in 2003, my hope that he'll be a candidate who won't spend trillions of dollars on a war that can't be won, improving the United States' infrastructure, and creating jobs). Are those good enough reasons for you? Can we discuss those?



Obviously, I won't change your mind on my understanding of the whole thing. And that's fine, I'm not all that interested in doing so. But, given that several states are calling for an amendment, and the rhetoric against it is increasing, I don't think any proposed amendments are as doomed to fail as you do.


I don't recall where I said, decided or implied that his je ne sais quoi was the SOLE reason you are voting for him. You did, however, say it was A reason.

I've addressed other reasons you have said you are voting for him. Others have addressed some of your others.

Seems that you want to fashion and control not only the terms of the debate, but the arguments and points other people get to make in that debate. That's not how debate typically works.

Sanders's proposed amendment didn't pass in Congress and the United States has never held an Article V Convention of the States to amend the Constitution. I think my view on the likelihood of success for a Citizens United constitutional amendment is more grounded in history and fact than your optimistic viewpoint on those chances. We're just going to disagree. I'm okay with that. You seem at least a little offended by it.
 
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