GOT 6-14 Pre-game (possible spoilers)

[Been Jammin]

Completely forgot about him.

I'm reluctantly going over to the side which is disappointed in this year's writing. I kept thinking that the last two episodes would tie everything together and Been would have to admit the show was doing fine without GRRM. But alas, t'was not to be. They not only didn't tie everything together, they let a couple more ends fray.

Since Melisandre failed Stannis so miserably, why should we think she's still powerful enough to bring Jon back? If she is that powerful, why didn't she go bring Stannis back instead of returning to the Wall looking like a whipped puppy?

Even in better days, I don't know why she'd have any interest in resurrecting Jon. He looked her right in the nipples and said, "No thanks." Was that event a foreshadowing of her power slipping away?

It's a sad state of affairs when the only storyline which doesn't make fans want to puke is Theon and Sansa holding hands and jumping 80 feet into a bank of snow.

I'm really disappointed. They won't set any season-opener Nielson ratings next year. Maybe they've made GRRM's point for him. Maybe they'll put him back in the driver's seat. IDK, they've worn me out.

You bring up some great points. But, I'm sure you knew I would agree with you. I can't remember if you have read the books or not, but am pretty sure you have.

Your point on why Mel would resurrect Jon is one that I had not thought about. I do assume that it will happen (for reasons I listed above), but I also agree that HBO has done nothing to set up that turn of events (except for establish that Thoros was able to do it for Dondarion and that Melisandre had a conversation with Thoros and knows what he was able to do).

But....In the books, GRRM has done a good job of setting up some doubts in Mel's head. At one point, she is looking in her fires to check in on Stannis. She asks the fire to show her Azor Ahai, because she believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn, but the only thing she sees is Snow. She also warns Jon multiple times of "daggers in the dark" and instructs him to keep Ghost close by. It would not take much, in the books, for Mel to realize that Jon might just be Azor Ahai (rather than Stannis) and that it is up to her to take action and try to bring him back to life.

However, in the show, we have not seen any indication that she thinks Jon is anything other than what he appears to be. With that said, all it would take is her peering into the fire and seeing something that would make her realize that she needs to do something.

The bigger question, I think, is what is going on at Castle Black after Jon dies. In the books, Jon has already dispersed most of the Wildlings to Mole's Town or to other castles along the wall, where they are already working with men of the NW. There will be some issues with Wildlings and NW in conflict with each other, but it might not dissolve into complete chaos which leaves the wall undefended. In HBO's world, everyone is at Castle Black. There is a huge group of wildlings and no one to mitigate conflict between them and the NW. It is hard to imagine Thorne, and the other Jon killers, not trying to kill all the Wildlings. With the giant there, it seems likely that the situation will devolve into near total decimation of most everyone who is at Castle Black. Who is going to play peacekeeper? Maybe Davos and Mel will recruit Tormund and most of the Wildlings to get Jon's body and hightail it away from Castle Black before things fall completely apart.

 

[JonnyVito]

I have a theory. I think that when Stannis said "go one do your duty" to Brienne what if this reminded her that her duty is to protect Sansa Stark. Maybe she didn't cut off Stannis head and will try to use him as a trading tool for Sansa (of course she doesn't know they jumped off the wall). Then Sansa and Theon meet up with Brienne and Pod and they have Stannis as a prisoner.

I really am starting to think they killed Jon Snow. I mean this guy took Ned in the first book and Rob in book 3 along with Cat. Why are we so sure that the ones who will live are the good ones? I am think the end game here is Cersei and the Night King end up ruling the realm.

 

[FMPoke]

Can't believe Jon is gone for good. The whole back story is about his parentage. That was the key question GRRM asked before signing off on the TV series. What's the payoff if he's dead? Some one tells Dani at the end "by the way your brother had this unknown son that was going to unite the north for you but he died so never mind"

Unless this is just GRRM's big F.U. to everyone. You all figured it out so now I'm going to change the whole ending and by the way that's going to take another ten years.

 

[JonnyVito]

 

[Been Jammin]

Can't believe Jon is gone for good. The whole back story is about his parentage. That was the key question GRRM asked before signing off on the TV series. What's the payoff if he's dead? Some one tells Dani at the end "by the way your brother had this unknown son that was going to unite the north for you but he died so never mind"

Unless this is just GRRM's big F.U. to everyone. You all figured it out so now I'm going to change the whole ending and by the way that's going to take another ten years.

I will be surprised if Jon is dead via HBO or via GRRM, but especially if it happens in the books. It is pretty obvious that GRRM has been setting the stage for Jon to die, which releases him from his NW vows, then be brought back to life so that he can leave the wall and join in on events that are going to take place in other parts of Westeros prior to the big showdown with the WW.

HBO showed us, this season, that without leaning on a detailed outline from GRRM, they are capable of mediocre story telling. Therefore, we can't count on them following GRRM's script for Jon. But, I think they will end up heading in the same direction and are just trying to misdirect viewers by claiming that Jon won't be back next season.

 

[TheRedSon]

Red must be on vacation, he should be all over this thread.

I haven't been keeping up with the show. I don't get HBO myself, and my friends I watched it with in the last haven't been watching this year.

I'd still be in the discussion if the show was right in line with the books. It obviously isn't though. Brienne and Sansa in the North and Jaime and Bron in Dorne... I have no point of reference to discuss either of these plot lines. I did see the episode where Selmy died. I was not particularly thrilled with that. I figured Barriston the Bold was too important to get the "blah" treatment that so many other characters have when switching media format. If they can kill him off with so much of his knowledge still not passed on to the viewer...

I'm guessing we're not going to hear about Connington and the other (potential) Targaryen at all on the show? Or anything about a Greyjoy not named Theon.

Regarding Jon... He's dead. It's extremely important that he be dead. The bastard son of Ned Stark is done. He'll be back though. He has at least two, possibly more, paths to a second life immediately available. Melisandre (who in the books is only one "a-ha!" moment from realizing Jon has been the focus of her visions for a while now), Ghost (aptly named and in the book we saw Six-skins live on through a wolf after his body died), and anything Bran can come up with (I have no doubt Bran is present at the death scene, and Benjen and a old Hands have cheated death as well).

He has to die because Ned Stark's son can't walk away from the oath. Death releases him. What's more, we're soon going to get a figurative release from Ned himself I think. Death and rebirth seem an appropriate time.

What's more interesting to me regarding Jon being alive again is "how" rather than "if." There's no way Martin is done with the character, and no way the show can deviate from him on this point. Ultimately Jon may die and fail... Not in book 5 of a 7 book series though. Not before his past is confirmed. Not before his heritage plays it's role on the main stage for good or ill. There's no reason, none, to invent him as a character and leave him here... It ruins the purpose in creating the entire Stark family to not play the Jon Snow plot to it's conclusion.

So, back to how we pass this point... Melisandre, warg or Bran? This matters I think. Melisandre thinks the Old Gods are evil. She wants to but. The weirwoods. Bran is, basically, becoming an Old God. I think the two of them maybe be in a war for his soul (or spirit... Essence... Whatever). That makes Ghost potentially important. Perhaps Jon can escape owing either god (or being owned by) with a third option.

 

[TheRedSon]

BTW, the rape of Sansa Stark (and I've only read about it in entertainment news stories) may be a step too far for me. I understand that rape happens in real life and at times should be included in any art that hopes to feel real... This is based on a book though. It's not original art. Sansa isn't raped in the books. I understand they chose to use her in this role instead of Jeyne Poole, but we don't see Jeyne raped anymore than in the books we "saw" the torture of Theon. We are simply told these things happened. Both are, I think, questionable, even for HBO, as scenes for my entertainment purposes.

 

[Been Jammin]

I haven't been keeping up with the show. I don't get HBO myself, and my friends I watched it with in the last haven't been watching this year.

I'd still be in the discussion if the show was right in line with the books. It obviously isn't though. Brienne and Sansa in the North and Jaime and Bron in Dorne... I have no point of reference to discuss either of these plot lines. I did see the episode where Selmy died. I was not particularly thrilled with that. I figured Barriston the Bold was too important to get the "blah" treatment that so many other characters have when switching media format. If they can kill him off with so much of his knowledge still not passed on to the viewer...

I'm guessing we're not going to hear about Connington and the other (potential) Targaryen at all on the show? Or anything about a Greyjoy not named Theon.

Regarding Jon... He's dead. It's extremely important that he be dead. The bastard son of Ned Stark is done. He'll be back though. He has at least two, possibly more, paths to a second life immediately available. Melisandre (who in the books is only one "a-ha!" moment from realizing Jon has been the focus of her visions for a while now), Ghost (aptly named and in the book we saw Six-skins live on through a wolf after his body died), and anything Bran can come up with (I have no doubt Bran is present at the death scene, and Benjen and a old Hands have cheated death as well).

He has to die because Ned Stark's son can't walk away from the oath. Death releases him. What's more, we're soon going to get a figurative release from Ned himself I think. Death and rebirth seem an appropriate time.

What's more interesting to me regarding Jon being alive again is "how" rather than "if." There's no way Martin is done with the character, and no way the show can deviate from him on this point. Ultimately Jon may die and fail... Not in book 5 of a 7 book series though. Not before his past is confirmed. Not before his heritage plays it's role on the main stage for good or ill. There's no reason, none, to invent him as a character and leave him here... It ruins the purpose in creating the entire Stark family to not play the Jon Snow plot to it's conclusion.

So, back to how we pass this point... Melisandre, warg or Bran? This matters I think. Melisandre thinks the Old Gods are evil. She wants to but. The weirwoods. Bran is, basically, becoming an Old God. I think the two of them maybe be in a war for his soul (or spirit... Essence... Whatever). That makes Ghost potentially important. Perhaps Jon can escape owing either god (or being owned by) with a third option.

Addressing most of your points...

1). I agree on Selmy. My take is HBO has basically replaced his role, as Dani's advisor on all things Westeros, with Tyrion. Tyrion is now going to pick up the pieces with Dani gone from Mereen. Maybe it was a cost cutting move so they didn't have to continue to pay the actor who played Selmy. I do agree that I wish they would have kept the character around for longer.

2). No mention of Connington or Aegon so far. I doubt either enter into the story as it seems they have missed their window.

3). They have pretty much eliminated all of the activity in the Riverlands from the plot. No LSH. Nothing for Brienne to do there, so they have moved her to the North. In making Sansa Jeyne Pool, and moving Littlefinger to KL, they have eliminated the Vale of Arryn from the story also.

4). Nothing to add on your Jon comments except that there is no ColdHands in HBO's version and there is no reason to believe that Bran is around when Jon dies (in the HBO version). Edit: I do have something to add. See number 6.

5). I agree with you about the rape of Sansa, and I wish HBO had not gone in that direction.

6). I see no realistic way for GRRM to revive Jon without Melisandre bringing him back to life. I don't see warging into Ghost as an option, as he would not be able to talk, and that would pretty much eliminate the significance of him finding out the significance of his true parentage. I think the same pertains to anything involving Bran. As to what HBO has in store. They have set the stage for Melisandre to be the key. But, I do think a lot of people are jumping to a lot of conclusions when it comes to what GRRM told HBO about how the story ends for each character. When he sat down with them, only 3 books had been written. He may have already changed paths for some characters and can still change paths more before his story is finished. I also doubt that he went into deep detail, as he had not yet written the final books. Plans change. Writing is fluid. HBO may know things that no longer apply to GRRM's version of the story.

 

[JonnyVito]

I guess I am not all that up in arms about the rape of Sansa. They didn't show the rape on screen only that it was going to happen and Theon was watching. I have seen some movies when a girl is raped and they show the act (no nudity or anything just the act) and felt sick about having seen it. I guess maybe with what I know happened to Jeyne Pool in the books I thought what happened with Sansa was mild only when you compare the two.

I also was thinking about how they basically cut out the Vale and was wondering if that story will impact the out come of ASOF&I.

 

[TheRedSon]

Don't know anything about the show... As I said. However, I believe Bran has been watching John Snow through the eyes of Mormont's raven for a while. Possible that Bloodraven was also doing this. The raven and Patchface both say things at times that seem incredibly perceptive, and I think we should always pay attention to what's going on when they speak. I'd have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure the raven says something important right before John is attacked.

Someone will cheat death as a Warg. My bet is on Arya, but it could also be John. If they don't I think it's strange that Martin spent so much time on Six-skins beyond the point that Six-skins still mattered to the plot.

Anyway, to come back with all his faculties intact his rebirth can't be the same as Dondarrion's or LSH's. Maybe some combination of Six-skins' answer and Thoros.'

 

[TheRedSon]

I think what bothers me so much about Sansa's rape is it's not necessary for the plot.

She is already firmly established as a victim.

 

[100TonsofOrangeFury]

I think what bothers me so much about Sansa's rape is it's not necessary for the plot.

She is already firmly established as a victim.

First of all, if it's possible to rape your wife on your wedding night then I guess she was. The plot point was in firmly creating her desperation to leap off a 200 foot wall to escape her tormentor. The larger significance of playing up Ramsey's sadism and Sansa's natural repulsion does somewhat escape me though. The books will surely lay out the how's and why's better if she does get sent off to Winterfell.

 

[Been Jammin]

Don't know anything about the show... As I said. However, I believe Bran has been watching John Snow through the eyes of Mormont's raven for a while. Possible that Bloodraven was also doing this. The raven and Patchface both say things at times that seem incredibly perceptive, and I think we should always pay attention to what's going on when they speak. I'd have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure the raven says something important right before John is attacked.

Someone will cheat death as a Warg. My bet is on Arya, but it could also be John. If they don't I think it's strange that Martin spent so much time on Six-skins beyond the point that Six-skins still mattered to the plot.

Anyway, to come back with all his faculties intact his rebirth can't be the same as Dondarrion's or LSH's. Maybe some combination of Six-skins' answer and Thoros.'

I would say that it can be the same as Dondarrion's. He seemed like a normal individual with full memory of his life, and normal faculties, when Arya first met him. He later said that things seemed to go south, a little bit more, each time he was revived. LSH is not a good comparison because she was dead for 2 wks prior to being revived. Assuming that he is dead for just a few minutes/hrs before Mel revives him, I would expect him to be pretty much the same guy, or maybe even stronger in some ways.

As to Sixskins. If I remember his chapter correctly, he said that if he warged into one of his wolves, he would eventually become a wolf and that which makes him human would gradually disappear. In the end, his body died and he tried to warg into the old woman, but she scratched out her own eyes and drove him out of her head. Eventually, he had no place to go and faded away. I always figured that the point of his chapter was to tell the reader that warging into an animal, remaining in that form, and retaining your human consciousness, was not an option. BBenjamin

 

[TheRedSon]

First of all, if it's possible to rape your wife on your wedding night then I guess she was. The plot point was in firmly creating her desperation to leap off a 200 foot wall to escape her tormentor. The larger significance of playing up Ramsey's sadism and Sansa's natural repulsion does somewhat escape me though. The books will surely lay out the how's and why's better if she does get sent off to Winterfell.

Well, consent is consent in our culture, wife or not. In their's, I don't know.

That's not Sansa in the book though. Sansa has not returned to Winterfell in them. Jeyne Poole is passed off as Arya (pretty sure it's not Sansa since the Queen was still blaming her for Joffrey's death). Also, I don't rember off the top of my head if Jeyne is raped or not. Certainly not beyond Ramsay's cruelty, but perhaps outside of his interest... I know she does suffer as his wife.

 

[TheRedSon]

I would say that it can be the same as Dondarrion's. He seemed like a normal individual with full memory of his life, and normal faculties, when Arya first met him. He later said that things seemed to go south, a little bit more, each time he was revived. LSH is not a good comparison because she was dead for 2 wks prior to being revived. Assuming that he is dead for just a few minutes/hrs before Mel revives him, I would expect him to be pretty much the same guy, or maybe even stronger in some ways.

As to Sixskins. If I remember his chapter correctly, he said that if he warged into one of his wolves, he would eventually become a wolf and that which makes him human would gradually disappear. In the end, his body died and he tried to warg into the old woman, but she scratched out her own eyes and drove him out of her head. Eventually, he had no place to go and faded away. I always figured that the point of his chapter was to tell the reader that warging into an animal, remaining in that form, and retaining your human consciousness, was not an option. BBenjamin

It could be the same as Dondarrion perhaps, but I'm not fond of that answer (not that it matters what I'd prefer). The thing is I believe Snow is special because of who he is (individually, not as any potential heir to the Iron Throne). I feel like any loss of his humanity could be significant to his potential.

You're correct about Six-skins regarding the fading into the animal-mind over time. It is described as gradual though... We could have a quick resurrection of the body combined with a soul that escaped whole (no soul tax to the Red God for instance) returning... Something to that effect.

Anyway, we agree he's not dead. I think if he comes back the way LSH did we may all wish he was though (I still think all of the Stark children and Dany could be on the "wrong" side in the end, and any loss of conscience makes that easier for John to wind up on the wrong side).

 

[JonnyVito]

In the books Jeyne Pool is pleasures by Theon before Ramsey bed her by Ramsey's request on the wedding night. There is some sick stuff if I remember right.

 

[Been Jammin]

First of all, if it's possible to rape your wife on your wedding night then I guess she was. The plot point was in firmly creating her desperation to leap off a 200 foot wall to escape her tormentor. The larger significance of playing up Ramsey's sadism and Sansa's natural repulsion does somewhat escape me though. The books will surely lay out the how's and why's better if she does get sent off to Winterfell.

I would say that there is less than a 3% chance that Sansa gets sent off to Winterfell while the Bolton's still control it. I think it is pretty obvious that HBO switched Sansa and Jeyne Pool because they never established Jeyne as a character in season 1 and didn't want to create a new character to fill the void. When book 5 ends, Sansa is right in the middle of the action going on in the Vale. Martin has pre-released 1 or 2 Sansa chapters from Book 6, and that trend appears to continue. Meanwhile, Martin has acknowledged that the Battle for Winterfell was cut from book 5 in order to keep the book from being too long. We should expect it to occur early in Book 6. Maybe the Bolton's defeat Stannis and retain control of Winterfell, but if that happens it is pretty clear that the Boltons will lose a significant number of their fighting men and be significantly weakened and less likely to hold Winterfell for much longer. My guess is that the Bolton's Frey army is decimated by a combination of Stannis' men and the Manderly's who join Stannis. In addition, the Umbers that are currently with Bolton seem to have been set up, by GRRM, to switch sides. That would pretty much leave the Boltons on an island with no allies in the North.

 

[TheRedSon]

In the books Jeyne Pool is pleasures by Theon before Ramsey bed her by Ramsey's request on the wedding night. There is some sick stuff if I remember right.

That sounds familiar.

 

[TheRedSon]

So having not watched the show this season I'm curious... Theon helps Sansa as he helped Jeyne in the book?

Sansa is OK with being helped by the guy she grew up with that conquered Winterfell and she believes killed her younger brothers?

 

[Been Jammin]

So having not watched the show this season I'm curious... Theon helps Sansa as he helped Jeyne in the book?

Sansa is OK with being helped by the guy she grew up with that conquered Winterfell and she believes killed her younger brothers?

So here is how it goes. When she first sees him, she is pissed off and disgusted by him. Eventually, Ramsay treats her so badly that she pleads with him to help her escape. He acts like he will help then tells Ramsay of her plans. Throughout this, she keeps trying to remind him of who he used to be and telling him that he owes a debt to her family. He actually tells her the truth about the non-killing of Bran/Rickon. Then she tries to escape again and gets caught by Ramsay's sadistic jealous girlfriend, who is planning to torture Sansa before returning her to Ramsay. At the last minute, he decides to push the girlfriend off the wall and save Sansa. The two of them then jump off the wall together.

 

[TheRedSon]

Well, I guess that's really as good as it's going to get when you screw with plot lines this much... Thanks for the answer.

This whole new path for Sansa was dumb from the start. Granted, she's probably the most difficult of the main (close-to-main?) characters to deal with since no one likes her for three whole seasons (or still), she's stuck in the place where, visibly at least, the absolute least stuff is happening in the books and moving her to Winterfell gets rid of several difficult to explain plots/characters from the books... Still, in the Vale she is on the verge of becoming powerful for the first time in her life in the books... In the show's plot, she has become a victim... Again.

 

[FMPoke]

So having not watched the show this season I'm curious... Theon helps Sansa as he helped Jeyne in the book?

Sansa is OK with being helped by the guy she grew up with that conquered Winterfell and she believes killed her younger brothers?

It's not like Sansa has a lot of options. It's more that Sansa manipulates Theon into helping her.

 

[nathajw]

I would like Ramsey to be flayed. About to start it hope it is all I have been wishing for.

 

[Ostatedchi]

I have a feeling that Sansa makes her way back to the Vale and when Little Finger finds out what happened to her that all hell is going to rain down on Winterfell.

 

[Renegade Bullet]

So, the all these brothers of the wall that have been fighting the walking dead AREN'T going to burn Jon after killing him?

Melisandre must get to him quick. I'd be sitting there with a Kingsford and a Bic.

 

[Been Jammin]

I figure Mel will get Ghost to keep them at bay. That, or Jon will just be one of many bodies when the Crows and Wildlings slaughter each other.

 

[Orange Jennyslipper]

I honestly laughed out loud at that gif. Iwan Rheon, who plays Ramsey also appeared this year in a British comedy with Ian McKellan and Derek Jacobi. I can't see one character without thinking of the other and since they are such polar opposites, it's very distracting. Jacobi and McKellan are aging gay stage actors who've lived together for decades and they AND their old biddy straight female friend are always hitting on Rheon, the handsome, muscular, straight neighbor. It's hilarious sometimes because his character either doesn't understand or doesn't know that all three of them are hitting on him.

Sorry, had nothing to add to GoT. It's actors are showing up everywhere. Rheon does a good job with comedy; the previews of Harrington playing a comedic tennis player on an HBO show don't look overly funny. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[CowboyJD]

I honestly laughed out loud at that gif. Iwan Rheon, who plays Ramsey also appeared this year in a British comedy with Ian McKellan and Derek Jacobi. I can't see one character without thinking of the other and since they are such polar opposites, it's very distracting. Jacobi and McKellan are aging gay stage actors who've lived together for decades and they AND their old biddy straight female friend are always hitting on Rheon, the handsome, muscular, straight neighbor. It's hilarious sometimes because his character either doesn't understand or doesn't know that all three of them are hitting on him.

Sorry, had nothing to add to GoT. It's actors are showing up everywhere. Rheon does a good job with comedy; the previews of Harrington playing a comedic tennis player on an HBO show don't look overly funny. Hope I'm wrong.

I first saw Iwan Rheon in the British TV show "Misfits". He's a good actor...very versatile.

 

[TheRedSon]

So, the all these brothers of the wall that have been fighting the walking dead AREN'T going to burn Jon after killing him?

Melisandre must get to him quick. I'd be sitting there with a Kingsford and a Bic.

I figure Mel will get Ghost to keep them at bay. That, or Jon will just be one of many bodies when the Crows and Wildlings slaughter each other.

Is the giant present when it happens in the show? When I read it the first time my immediate thought was that Bran would warg the giant (in the book he has already controlled Hodor by that point) and save the body.

 

[Been Jammin]

Is the giant present when it happens in the show? When I read it the first time my immediate thought was that Bran would warg the giant (in the book he has already controlled Hodor by that point) and save the body.

In the show, you see the giant go through the Castle Black gate, into Castle Black, 1 or 2 episodes prior to the episode where Jon is stabbed. You don't see him after that. It can be assumed that he is still at Castle Black somewhere, as there is no reference to sending him anywhere else. In truth, HBO has made no mention of Jon sending Wildlings to Mole's Town, to other castles along the wall, or anywhere else.

As to the books, Wun Wun is definitely there, as he tears one of Selyse's knights into pieces about 2 minutes prior to Jon getting stabbed. The knight has injured Wun Wun (from the description, it sounds like mostly superficial cuts to the arms) and Wun Wun is basically out of control and throwing a tantrum. Jon tells Leathers (a wildling who has joined the Night;s Watch) to talk to him and try to calm him down. Immediately after that is when the first traitor slashes Jon across the neck.

Also present, at Castle Black are the following:
-Tormund with 50 of his wildling warriors.
-Approximately 8 knights who were left by Stannis to keep Selyse and Shireen safe
-Selyse and Shireen
-Melisandre
-Approximately 10 men left by Stannis to guard Melisandre. They are all too young, too old, or too fond of getting drunk to have been deemed useful in Stannis' army. One is Davos' oldest living son (Stannis' squire)
-An unknown number of Wildlings, including a Warg and his Giant Boar
-Ghost
-An unknown number of NW conspirators who agreed that Jon needed to die
-An unknown number of NW who are loyal to Jon and going to be pissed off at the conspirators
-An unknown number of NW who probably don't know what to think and what to do now.

Sounds like a huge clusterF. Who knows what will come out of that situation? (other than GRRM)

 

[JonnyVito]

Well I have finally started the WoIaF and then I am going to re-read books 4 and 5. So far I am starting to think that Jon will be revived by Bran and not Mel. This Andals, First Men, Valyrian and Rhoynar IMO are more important then Stark and Targaryen. Also with thinking this I wonder if Stannis might still be alive and in fact is "reborn" from the death of his daughter, wife and soldiers and become AA. There are several ways this could happen maybe Breinne kills him and with Jon's blood being spilt will bring him back (Jon is brother of the King of the North (Rob)). Also he could already be AA and Breinne spares his life but he is reborn from all the death and is a changed man.

 

[Cowpoke]

Well I have finally started the WoIaF and then I am going to re-read books 4 and 5. So far I am starting to think that Jon will be revived by Bran and not Mel. This Andals, First Men, Valyrian and Rhoynar IMO are more important then Stark and Targaryen. Also with thinking this I wonder if Stannis might still be alive and in fact is "reborn" from the death of his daughter, wife and soldiers and become AA. There are several ways this could happen maybe Breinne kills him and with Jon's blood being spilt will bring him back (Jon is brother of the King of the North (Rob)). Also he could already be AA and Breinne spares his life but he is reborn from all the death and is a changed man.

Well there would have to be a red preist/priestess there to do the job, and there isn't one.

Stannis is dead and gone IMO. I see no role for him after killing his kid. Who would follow him? He aint wining the crown now, and there is no need for him from Sansa. Her, Theon, Brienne and Pod will be the new odd quad.

Red Lady and Davos have new duties and are removed from him.

I bet we see the odd quad in the show go get Rickon instead of Davos doing it. Davos stays with Red and reborn Jon. Davos doesn't even know he's alive in the show, much less where to go get him unless Red sees it in the flames. Sansa knows he's alive and they probably bump into somone that saw where Rickon and uhhh..umm...wildling chick were headed .

 

[Cowpoke]

Oh and Briene and Theon fall in love and find some weird way to bump really, really, ugly uglies.

 

[JonnyVito]

I will agree there is a slim chance on the stannis stuff other then him just living and being an adviser to either Sansa or Jon. I highly doubt he is AA I am just trying to cast someone else as AA since I think Jon isn't him. Maybe Bran is AA since he did kinda almost die???

 

[Cowpoke]

Danni was sort of "reborn" when she walked out of the fire.

 

[Been Jammin]

Just to clarify...

I don't think any of the characters, in the books, need to be "reborn" to be Azor Ahai. Melisandre talks about Stannis being "AA reborn" Supposedly, AA was a hero who lived hundreds of years ago. He was born the day his mother gave birth to him. If Stannis, Jon, Dani, or someone else is the second coming of AA, then AA was "reborn" on the day that character's mother gave birth to him/her. There is no need for Stannis or Jon to die and come back to life for him to fit the prophecy and be named AA Reborn. There is no need to extrapolate Dani's survival of the fire in order for her to fit the prophecy.

 

[JonnyVito]

Ok then that would fit with what I am thinking and Jon could still be AA with out having Mel revive him and having a debt to R'hllor for being brought back to life. With the talk that Brann will have his powers and be trained next time we see him I think he will be the key to Jon survival.

 

[Been Jammin]

Ok then that would fit with what I am thinking and Jon could still be AA with out having Mel revive him and having a debt to R'hllor for being brought back to life. With the talk that Brann will have his powers and be trained next time we see him I think he will be the key to Jon survival.

In DWD, there is a Mel chapter where she tells the reader that it has been a long time since she has been able to see Stannis when she stares into her fires. I am paraphrasing, but she states that she "keeps asking for a vision of AA reborn, but all she sees is Snow". My suspicion is that early in TWOW, she decides that Jon Snow is AA reborn and Stannis is not. That is the impetus behind her deciding to revive JS. Maybe she burns Shireen alive as part of that process. (similar to the way Miri Maz Dur had to be burned alive in order for the dragon eggs to hatch.) Maybe burning Shireen will not only allow Jon to not lose part of himself (Dondarion lost some and LSH lost a lot), but will grant Jon some additional abilities that he didn't have before.

One part of the AA prophesy is that he/she wields the mystical sword Lightbringer. Maester Aemon stated that Stannis's sword gives off light, but no heat, and therefore, does not fit into the prophecy. Where Jon would get such a sword remains a mystery, but I do think that GRRM has set the stage for AA reborn to wield a bad ass sword regardless of who turns out to be the one to fulfill the prophecy. Since Rhlorr is the lord of light and fire plays such a key part in his worship, I think it makes sense for Lightbringer to somehow be tied to him.

For those reasons, it seems to make the most sense that Jon is AAR and that Mel will bring him back to life. Also, if he dies, he is released from his vow to TNW and would be free to leave the Wall without being labeled a deserter.

 

[JonnyVito]

Oh I think he dies like what you are saying so he can be released from the TNW but we have no clue to Brann's powers and I am thinking Jon's revival will show case Bran's powers and what he has learned from the three eye raven. I just think to much has been put on that Raven talking to Jon and IMO the Raven was skin changed by the three eyed raven watching Jon.

I think Mel has lost some powers and other then Renly B what has she really done to prove she is powerful. Robb and Joferry deaths are very explainable. IMO bringing Jon back like LSH or Dondarion is not the answer.

 

[JonnyVito]

I meant BloodRaven even though BR and 3EC are really the same person.