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For the Bernie supporter

I will be sitting out the election if the powers that be ignore those who have voted and substitute their establishment loser of the quadrennium.
 
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imprimis said:
I will be sitting out the election if the powers that be ignore those who have voted and substitute their establishment loser of the quadrennium.
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I understand this argument and I'm sure a lot of others will follow suit. However, strictly speaking, if Trump (or Cruz) doesn't garner the required delegates to gain the nomination on the first ballot, the party is not "cheating" Trump out of anything. Those are the rules of the nominating process. If they try to screw Trump out of it even if he DOES gain the 1,237 delegates, then anyone would be rightly justified in being outraged. I don't think that will happen. Of course they could follow the rules and then pick any of a number of milquetoast losers.
 
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syskatine said:
Why Cruz? The Goldman/philandering narratives bother you?
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Honestly, I haven't looked at the philandering stories enough to judge their merit. If he comes out and admits it or more clear evidence emerges, yes it would bother me. I do know the publisher of the NE is a LONG time friend of Trump. The Goldman thing doesn't bother me one whit. He did what he said he would do when he was elected, to a very high degree.
 
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Marshal Jim Duncan said:
I understand this argument and I'm sure a lot of others will follow suit. However, strictly speaking, if Trump (or Cruz) doesn't garner the required delegates to gain the nomination on the first ballot, the party is not "cheating" Trump out of anything. Those are the rules of the nominating process. If they try to screw Trump out of it even if he DOES gain the 1,237 delegates, then anyone would be rightly justified in being outraged. I don't think that will happen. Of course they could follow the rules and then pick any of a number of milquetoast losers.
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There is also a rule which requires only those candidates who have won a majority of the votes in 8 primary states to be submitted for nomination. No Kasich, Rubio, Bush, Christie, Paul, Graham, Gilmore, Santorum, Fiorina, Carson, Pataki, Walker, Huckabee, Jindal, or Perry and certainly not Romney or anyone else who chose not to run. Only Cruz and Trump have secured the required victories to be nominated.
 
I'm still supporting him, because I don't mind the idea of my tax dollars going towards healthcare and education, as I think those things improve society as a whole, and I think that should be ultimate goal of an administration. And even with that, I don't think there is any chance any of his stuff makes it through a GOP-dominated house, at least to the extent he is planning now.

I think Cruz and Trump's tax plans would be disasters. I don't think cutting spending and social services in the 3rd most populated country, where childhood poverty, functional illiteracy are running rampant (which they are in many school districts/cities) is a good idea. I don't think there is a switch that will get flipped when certain people lose their entitlements and all of a sudden they develop a work ethic. I think they fall further into this poverty cycle, which perpetuates ignorance, crime and divisions amongst people. Does that perpetuate the welfare state? Sure, but I also believe the only way out of the poverty cycle is liberation through education.

Also, if my choices are a lying rat of a politician in Hillary. A misognyist buffoon in Trump, and a guy who I disagree with ideologically on most things in Cruz, then yes, Sanders seems the best choice in my mind.
 
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SMemmett said:
Does that perpetuate the welfare state? Sure, but I also believe the only way out of the poverty cycle is liberation through education.
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How many more decades of liberation through education before this problem is solved?
 
SMemmett said:
3rd most populated country, where childhood poverty, functional illiteracy are running rampant (which they are in many school districts/cities) is a good idea.

I don't think there is a switch that will get flipped when certain people lose their entitlements and all of a sudden they develop a work ethic.
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What do you think eliminating waste, fraud, idiotic tax laws, and cronyism in an incredibly inefficient and bloated government would do for available money to go toward education? If Bernie had any plans to address those issues before taking more of my money, he might just be my guy. As it stands, a continued policy of blank checks on an "infinite" checking account is something I can't support.

To your other point, in some cases I agree. But recently some moves back to the suspended work for welfare have resulted in some remarkable results for able bodied dependentless adults. Every dollar wasted on someone who doesn't actually need it is a dollar not available to someone who does. Nobody on the left appears to have the balls to address fraud and make reforms to our welfare systems, so they won't get my vote.

Again, a plan of accountability and waste elimination might make Bernie's ridiculous tax plan something that isn't actually needed to fund his ideas.
 
wyomingosualum said:
How many more decades of liberation through education before this problem is solved?
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I don't believe we've had even one decade of that yet. I can only speak to my experiences as a teacher in Oklahoma, but there is a huge disparity in the quality of facilities, technology, teacher quality, materials, etc... between some school districts. I currently teach at a district that ranks near the top in average income in the state as far as the people who live in-district. They have great booster support and several bonds have been passed the last few years and they have amazing facilities, fantastic access to technology, great extra-curricular activities and support, and logically good teachers flock there (at least the ones that haven't fled the state).

My first teaching job was in a place the exact opposite. There was constant turnover at these schools and students at these schools did not have equal educational opportunities, in my opinion.

Even when I was at OSU, we had to log 48 hours of observation of classroom instruction at an 'urban' schools and also had rural schools. I spent time at a total of 4 districts. OKC, Pawnee, Mid-Del and Mulhall-Orlando. Two were awesome and two were certainly not, even though there wasn't much geographical distance between (IMO) the good and sub-par districts.
 
If educational funding was the answer then we would have the best schools in the world. We've tossed massive amounts of money into education and gotten worse. The problem is not the lack of spending.
 
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SMemmett said:
I don't believe we've had even one decade of that yet. I can only speak to my experiences as a teacher in Oklahoma, but there is a huge disparity in the quality of facilities, technology, teacher quality, materials, etc... between some school districts. I currently teach at a district that ranks near the top in average income in the state as far as the people who live in-district. They have great booster support and several bonds have been passed the last few years and they have amazing facilities, fantastic access to technology, great extra-curricular activities and support, and logically good teachers flock there (at least the ones that haven't fled the state).

My first teaching job was in a place the exact opposite. There was constant turnover at these schools and students at these schools did not have equal educational opportunities, in my opinion.

Even when I was at OSU, we had to log 48 hours of observation of classroom instruction at an 'urban' schools and also had rural schools. I spent time at a total of 4 districts. OKC, Pawnee, Mid-Del and Mulhall-Orlando. Two were awesome and two were certainly not, even though there wasn't much geographical distance between (IMO) the good and sub-par districts.
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I understood you to be for increased social and education spending, that's why I asked the question that I did. I was going to refer you to the amount of money spent on the War on Poverty and similar programs and then show you that the percentage of people living in poverty hasn't really changed much. Anyway, maybe I just misunderstood where you were coming from.

If you had to rank the variables of what makes a good education, what would be nearest the top of the list?
 
imprimis said:
If educational funding was the answer then we would have the best schools in the world. We've tossed massive amounts of money into education and gotten worse. The problem is not the lack of spending.
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Per pupil we do not have the highest education funding in the world for K-12 schools. And per % of GDP, we are also not 1st. And funding is not equal district to district, some students receive lower quality educations than others solely because the district they reside in and the property tax revenue, among other factors.

And sure, throwing money at a problem doesn't fix it. There are many failings with the current education system. Ever changing standards, inefficiency, low teacher quality due to lack of pay/autonomy, bloated administrative payrolls, etc... Those problems need to fixed as well.

But, what would your ideas be as far as improving the infrastructure of poor school districts, if the answer is not to increase funding? Educational opportunities are not equal at public schools right now and I think fixing that would be very beneficial.
 
wyomingosualum said:
I understood you to be for increased social and education spending, that's why I asked the question that I did. I was going to refer you to the amount of money spent on the War on Poverty and similar programs and then show you that the percentage of people living in poverty hasn't really changed much. Anyway, maybe I just misunderstood where you were coming from.

If you had to rank the variables of what makes a good education, what would be nearest the top of the list?
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I don't know if could rank them 1-5, or anything. But the important ones for me, off the top of my head.

  • A safe, stable environment.
  • Putting more importance on trade schools, especially for students who continually struggle with reading and math all through school. Quit forcing along kids when they are 16 years old, learning things that everyone knows will not apply to them, later in life. In short, reducing snowflake syndrome which is running rampant through American culture now, and is only being perpetuated by the educational system.
  • Finding ways to increase the autonomy of the student and their family as far as their education goes, especially from ages 15-18.
  • Increasing extra-curricular opportunities.
  • Smaller class sizes, especially for K-3.
  • Finding ways to reduce turnover at schools both in faculty and administration to promote a consistent culture, especially at low-income schools. A kid having 3 different principals in 3 years at his middle school is not uncommon in some districts.
Right now the mentality of public education is simply to push them through, push them through. It's amazing how few kids are held back, despite how poor their performance is. That above all needs to change, which would allow rigor to increase, and then we would start to see true progress.
 
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SMemmett said:
I don't know if could rank them 1-5, or anything. But the important ones for me, off the top of my head.

  • A safe, stable environment.
  • Putting more importance on trade schools, especially for students who continually struggle with reading and math all through school. Quit forcing along kids when they are 16 years old, learning things that everyone knows will not apply to them, later in life. In short, reducing snowflake syndrome which is running rampant through American culture now, and is only being perpetuated by the educational system.
  • Finding ways to increase the autonomy of the student and their family as far as their education goes, especially from ages 15-18.
  • Increasing extra-curricular opportunities.
  • Smaller class sizes, especially for K-3.
  • Finding ways to reduce turnover at schools both in faculty and administration to promote a consistent culture, especially at low-income schools. A kid having 3 different principals in 3 years at his middle school is not uncommon in some districts.
Right now the mentality of public education is simply to push them through, push them through. It's amazing how few kids are held back, despite how poor their performance is. That above all needs to change, which would allow rigor to increase, and then we would start to see true progress.
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Bravo! Outstanding post. The reasons you listed are most of the reasons I took my daughter out of public school in the first 9 weeks of the first grade and haven't looked back. She's a sixth grader now and performs well above her peers on standardized testing.
 
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SMemmett said:
A safe, stable environment.
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At home, school or both?

Agree with some things you have there. Add parental involvement (make sure the kid gets his homework done, gets to bed at a reasonable time, brings additional food to supplement reduced serving sizes nowadays, regular communication with teachers, etc.).

Like you said, just shooting from the hip here.
 
I'd be interested to see a breakdown of how we spend money on education vs other developed nations. I'm very interested in the percentage of total education spend that goes to admin costs.

My thoughts are (at state level where it belongs anyway) is reorganize the entire state structure. Get rid of every district having their own superintendent and break districts into regions each with a head (not sure how many regions are needed). From there, you would be able to essentially share a lot of the smaller districts and combine them from an admin standpoint. You could cut a lot of top level admin wages and cost and push the money down to student levels.

I'd much rather have fewer administrative staff and pay teachers more, more supplies, etc. I see an incredible amount of waste on admin.

Granted, I take this from a corporate POV, where my company (very large oilfield service company) has spent the last 18 months gutting SG&A and essentially flattening out our org structure. We are very much a leaner organization, and most of the admin staff isn't missed at all.
 
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wyomingosualum said:
Percentage of GDP, we aren't spectacular because we're wealthy. Individual spending per student, however, puts us very close to the top. Over $10,000 per student annually.
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Not how much, rather the breakdown of where the dollars actually go. I think school districts (all government entities really) should be forced to provide financial reporting at the same level or greater than publicly treated companies. I want to see HOW schools spend their money.
 
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In my school district there are over 15 administrators earning well north of $100,000 per year. That's assinine. In the HS I graduated from, we had over 1,000 students in my graduating class and over 3,500 in grades 10-12. We had only 1 principal, 1 vice principal and 1 counselor. Nor did we have any coaches making hundreds of thousands of dollars. In the HS in my school district there is 1 principal, 9 assistant principals, 1 Dean of Instruction and numerous counselors. The amount of money available for spending is not the problem. Where the money is being spent is. The pyramid is upside down.

The lack of involvement by parents is also a problem. Many of them think the school system is their day care center.

Get rid of the social engineering politically correct namby pamby feel good curriculum and get back to teaching the fundamentals of reading, writing and arithmetic until they are mastered. Get the federal government and Michelle Obama's menu out of public education. Let local districts determine what is best for their students and then hold those people accountable.

I know this will never happen, but, I'd make people write a check for their school taxes directly to the school district rather than have it removed and escrowed with their mortgage payments. When the people see what they are paying for these abysmal results they may demand more accountability. (I would urge the same for income taxes to be paid directly versus withheld from their checks. But, that's a discussion for another time.)
 
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imprimis said:
In my school district there are over 15 administrators earning well north of $100,000 per year. That's assinine. In the HS I graduated from, we had over 1,000 students in my graduating class and over 3,500 in grades 10-12. We had only 1 principal, 1 vice principal and 1 counselor. Nor did we have any coaches making hundreds of thousands of dollars. In the HS in my school district there is 1 principal, 9 assistant principals, 1 Dean of Instruction and numerous counselors. The amount of money available for spending is not the problem. Where the money is being spent is. The pyramid is upside down.

The lack of involvement by parents is also a problem. Many of them think the school system is their day care center.

Get rid of the social engineering politically correct namby pamby feel good curriculum and get back to teaching the fundamentals of reading, writing and arithmetic until they are mastered. Get the federal government and Michelle Obama's menu out of public education. Let local districts determine what is best for their students and then hold those people accountable.

I know this will never happen, but, I'd make people write a check for their school taxes directly to the school district rather than have it removed and escrowed with their mortgage payments. When the people see what they are paying for these abysmal results they may demand more accountability. (I would urge the same for income taxes to be paid directly versus withheld from their checks. But, that's a discussion for another time.)
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This is why I want districts to provide detailed financial reports. More money is not needed, spending the current money on the right stuff is what is needed.
 
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poke2001 said:
Not how much, rather the breakdown of where the dollars actually go. I think school districts (all government entities really) should be forced to provide financial reporting at the same level or greater than publicly treated companies. I want to see HOW schools spend their money.
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OOPS!
 
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poke2001 said:
This is why I want districts to provide detailed financial reports. More money is not needed, spending the current money on the right stuff is what is needed.
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They do, you can find information on just about every district website, I'd guess. They have to make them public by law, I think.

Here's an example of a breakdown on the Mid-Del website, and I'm sure there is more detailed information available.

"
Our General Fund Budget for Fiscal Year 2014 was $88,304,152, with more than 80% of expenditures going to salaries and benefits.

In Fiscal Year 2014, we spent:

  • $2,400,000 for computers, laptops, printers, and smartboards, and technology infrastructure
  • $68,000 for instructional, art and copy paper.
  • $720,000 for property insurance
  • $225,000 for diesel fuel
  • $2,700,000 for custodial services
  • $2,000,000 for utilities
"
 
If he's talking business like I think he is, he'll probably want that broken out considerably more.
 
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