Finally!!! Kudos to Morning Joe

[purkey]

those 2 knuckleheads shouldn't ever get kudos for anything...ever. And trying to put a number on each side is a bit of a joke. It's a 50/50 proposition in most cases with a few dimwits creating havoc...and it appears that it's not the WS doing the creating. Both wrong and numbers don't matter. In a dark alley I'd be more worried about antifa than ws...of course I'm white. Someone needs to get it stopped as it's just another distraction created by you know who.

 

[CowboyJD]

I would note a difference between the extreme left and right groups at least in my own perception. Groups like the KKK have been around for a long while, and while they do participate in criminal activity (can you say Meth dealer), they don't generally participate in group-based violence. You have your lone wolf individuals such as the idiot in Charlotte or Dylan Roof, but when was the last time you saw them simply congregate and start violence? Heck even the protest in Charlotte, they submitted for and received a permit to do their protest. The flip side is Antifa (and BLM before them) who don't seem to have individual bad actors. In fact, they've tried hard to distance themselves from the one-off acts, such as the Dallas Police Sniper, yet are proud to own and condone mob violence (rioting in Ferguson & Baltimore by BLM and the multiple occassions of masked mob violence in Berkeley and elsewhere by Antifa).

The two bolded statements are examples of you doing exactly what you are accusing the other side of trying to do (distance themselves from the one off acts).

I also disagree with your contention that they don't generally participate in group-based violence based upon personal experience and involvement in investigations.

 

[CowboyJD]

I would have respect for Antifa if they left the relative safety of the police and public eye and actually assaulted a white supremacist compound. Now that would be revolutionary.

Pretending everyone is a nazi and Trump is a fascist if anything waters down sensitivity to any actual criminal or terrorist threats posed by actual white nationalist violent types.

Agree completely.

 

[CowboyJD]

Nope. Purely anecdotal observation on my part. I would assume you have actual numbers at your disposal. I've never met a fascist in 47 years. But I know at least two guys who would not surprise me to see getting shot in the nuts with pepper balls at a commie protest. The Antifa seem convinced everyone is a fascist and that they represent a threat.

It reminds me of the mass hysteria over martians.

My concern is that nazis are about as relevant as they've beeen since the Blues Borithers ran them off a bridge, and that the Antifa' LARP trust fund revolutionary fantasies are being exploited to further militarize police and train people to ask for a police state.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Spencer and his ilk are aware that's the goal.

visually - the size of white nationalist rallies vs the size of Antifa mobs is what I'm mostly basing my observation on. If I'm wrong, I would be open to another explanation.

Important question though - how do you qualify a fascist?

Definitions and qualifications are definitely important.

I would probably answer you're question with a question....how did you qualify fascists in your fascists = snipe comment.

For me, the issue is less about Nazi party, KKK, fascist as it is the willingness to engage in violent and criminal acts in support of white supremacist ideology. That's the group I'm looking at. On the other side, I'm looking at those that are willing to engage in violent and criminal acts in support of warring against whatever their definition of "fascist" ideology might be.

I have friends that are active in the Antifa movement in the Pacific Northwest. They are all hardcore nonviolent passive resistors civil disobedience believers that decry the violent element of their movement. Through them (visiting them on a trip) I met some of the people willing (more accurately...desiring) to engage in violence at the drop of a hat. Those are the people I'm concerned about as well.

Not all Nazis, white supremacists, KKK are violent or criminal. Not all antifa adherents are violent or criminal. Both are far from monolithic, unified, cohesive groups. My focus is on individuals or groups of individuals actually engaging in violence or crime/conspiring to do so.

 

[aix_xpert]

The two bolded statements are examples of you doing exactly what you are accusing the other side of trying to do (distance themselves from the one off acts).

I also disagree with your contention that they don't generally participate in group-based violence based upon personal experience and involvement in investigations.

I think you misinterpreted my first post. I wasn't accusing the second group of 'distancing' themselves. I think both sides do this approrpiately. What I was referring to was that we accept that separation. There is clear media articles published that separated the Dallas Shooter from BLM even though they were glad to chant "Death to pigs" in their marches. Yet, Dillan Roof was clearly tied to the right wing group, even though he clearly acted as a lone wolf bad guy.

My bigger point though is that one side clearly advocates for mob violence and I don't see that being the case with the other. You say based on your 'investigative' background, you see them engaged in physically violent activities. I find it interesting that given the publicity these groups have currently, that none of that is being broadcast. Yet, I can find dozens of examples in the past 6 months of Antifa & BLM (the two groups that equate to the alt-left imo) using mob violence and clearly condoning acts of violence against those of the opposite side. Anyone remember the Antifa posts following the shooting of the Congressman? They celebrated the violence. Please show me the Alt-right equivalent.

 

[CowboyJD]

I think you misinterpreted my first post. I wasn't accusing the second group of 'distancing' themselves. I think both sides do this approrpiately. What I was referring to was that we accept that separation. There is clear media articles published that separated the Dallas Shooter from BLM even though they were glad to chant "Death to pigs" in their marches. Yet, Dillan Roof was clearly tied to the right wing group, even though he clearly acted as a lone wolf bad guy.

My bigger point though is that one side clearly advocates for mob violence and I don't see that being the case with the other. You say based on your 'investigative' background, you see them engaged in physically violent activities. I find it interesting that given the publicity these groups have currently, that none of that is being broadcast. Yet, I can find dozens of examples in the past 6 months of Antifa & BLM (the two groups that equate to the alt-left imo) using mob violence and clearly condoning acts of violence against those of the opposite side. Anyone remember the Antifa posts following the shooting of the Congressman? They celebrated the violence. Please show me the Alt-right equivalent.

March 20, 2017. A 28-year-old white supremacist named James Harris Jackson stabs a 66-year-old black stranger to death in midtown Manhattan.

May 26, 2017. Two men are stabbed to death on a light-rail train in Portland, Oregon by a "known local white supremacist" named Jeremy Joseph Christian.

Aug. 12, 2017. A white supremacist named James Fields Jr. attending the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, allegedly runs over and kills an anti-racism protester.

For each of these incidents, there were statements of support and encouragement of multiple white supremacists websites justifying and encouraging the same.

The Vice Documentary on Charlottesville quotes organizers endorsing the use of violence before their march. Are you really trying to argue that white supremacist groups DON'T endorse the threat and use of group violence in their protests as well? At every Antifa mob violence incident I can think of, there were equally armed inviduals on the other side at the event. Are you suggesting that groups that inspire, endorse and advocate individual racial violence as a means for change are somehow less concerning that those than Antifa group violence you see on tv?

 

[aix_xpert]

March 20, 2017. A 28-year-old white supremacist named James Harris Jackson stabs a 66-year-old black stranger to death in midtown Manhattan.

May 26, 2017. Two men are stabbed to death on a light-rail train in Portland, Oregon by a "known local white supremacist" named Jeremy Joseph Christian.

Aug. 12, 2017. A white supremacist named James Fields Jr. attending the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, allegedly runs over and kills an anti-racism protester.

For each of these incidents, there were statements of support and encouragement of multiple white supremacists websites justifying and encouraging the same.

The Vice Documentary on Charlottesville quotes organizers endorsing the use of violence before their march. Are you really trying to argue that white supremacist groups DON'T endorse the threat and use of group violence in their protests as well? At every Antifa mob violence incident I can think of, there were equally armed inviduals on the other side at the event. Are you suggesting that groups that inspire, endorse and advocate individual racial violence as a means for change are somehow less concerning that those than Antifa group violence you see on tv?

Thank you. I must have missed the armed individuals in Berkeley. I imagine Ann Coulter is known for carrying ARs and being a threat to society and the public at large. As for the Vice documentary, I saw it, and saw that they were armed. But given their history of left-leaning reporting, I took their report with a shaker of salt.

 

[CowboyJD]

Thank you. I must have missed the armed individuals in Berkeley. As for the Vice documentary, I saw it, and saw that they were armed. But given their history of left-leaning reporting, I took their report with a shaker of salt.

They quoted organizers of the event on video. Not sure why you would need a shaker of salt for that.

Do you take Breitbart, gatewaypundit, etc. with a shaker of salt given their history of right-leaning reporting? Serious question, btw.

 

[aix_xpert]

They quoted organizers of the event on video. Not sure why you would need a shaker of salt for that.

Do you take Breitbart, gatewaypundit, etc. with a shaker of salt given their history of right-leaning reporting? Serious question, btw.

I can't say that I read either of those sites. About the only right-wing sites I read are the WSJ, IBD, and FoxNews. They do link to those sites on occasion, but I don't go to those sites for my local news ingestion. I also avoid the " TV news" channels. I also read CNN, CNBC and watch the evening news (usually NBC as my wife likes Lester Holt, although we've caught them falsifying or slanting the news on several occassions, so aren't real trusting of their reports.). I've tried doing MSNBC, but they imbed too many video reports instead of giving me news stories. I'd rather read my news in 1 minute than sit and watch some 4 minute video.

I wanted to add one other thing though. In each of the examples you gave, its still lone individuals, although I will accept that the most extreme organizations do support the actions of its members as shown. My concern with Antifa and BLM is the mob mentality that they have shown, and I guess that's the difference I was trying to reflect. In the end though, you are right, both are extremist, dangerous and have no place in our society.

 

[CowboyJD]

I can't say that I read either of those sites. About the only right-wing sites I read are the WSJ, IBD, and FoxNews. They do link to those sites on occasion, but I don't go to those sites for my local news ingestion. I also avoid the " TV news" channels. I also read CNN, CNBC and watch the evening news (usually NBC as my wife likes Lester Holt, although we've caught them falsifying or slanting the news on several occassions, so aren't real trusting of their reports.). I've tried doing MSNBC, but they imbed too many video reports instead of giving me news stories. I'd rather read my news in 1 minute than sit and watch some 4 minute video.

I wanted to add one other thing though. In each of the examples you gave, its still lone individuals, although I will accept that the most extreme organizations do support the actions of its members as shown. My concern with Antifa and BLM is the mob mentality that they have shown, and I guess that's the difference I was trying to reflect. In the end though, you are right, both are extremist, dangerous and have no place in our society.

Look into the Fraternal Order of Alt Knights and Based Stickman.

Look familiar?

 

[CowboyJD]

Now you can give us a one-eye pose to complete your corporate narrative. =)
























These signs are #JustACoincidence

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus

You are incredibly full of shit.

You know that, right?

 

[NZ Poke]

Below too is #JustACoincidence


Brought to us by the same corporate media who told us:


- it's in our best interests to invade Iraq

- Hillary Clinton has a 98% chance of winning the election (despite not being able to fill up high school gymnasiums)

 

[CowboyJD]

Below too is #JustACoincidence


Brought to us by the same corporate media who told us:


- it's in our best interests to invade Iraq

- Hillary Clinton has a 98% chance of winning the election (despite not being able to fill up high school gymnasiums)

Here we go again.

You have a history of your conspiracy Red Pill nonsense getting debunked and just moving on to the next distraction.

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You are definitely a quantity over quality guy.

We were having a valid, rational, reasonable discussion until you showed up trying to derail it with off topic spam.

Just saying....

 

[aix_xpert]

Look into the Fraternal Order of Alt Knights and Based Stickman.

Look familiar?

So where did that 'mob' photo come from? Was this from the Charlotte clash? Let me guess, that's an innocent, unarmed, neutral citizen that he's shown attacking. I'd like a little context. We've agreed that both sides have shown up armed for the clashes. I don't think that's the same as the rioting we've seen from the other side, but maybe that's the difference in our perceptions.

 

[aix_xpert]

Here we go again.

You have a history of your conspiracy Red Pill nonsense getting debunked and just moving on to the next distraction.

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You are definitely a quantity over quality guy.

We were having a valid, rational, reasonable discussion until you showed up trying to derail it with off topic spam.

Just saying....

BTW JD, I just ignore NZ. Please don't associate my portions of our conversation with his positions.

 

[CowboyJD]

So where did that 'mob' photo come from? Was this from the Charlotte clash? Let me guess, that's an innocent, unarmed, neutral citizen that he's shown attacking. I'd like a little context. We've agreed that both sides have shown up armed for the clashes. I don't think that's the same as the rioting we've seen from the other side, but maybe that's the difference in our perceptions.

First one is based stickman in Berkely.

You seem to be now stating you need context for one group showing up armed and ready for combat, but not the other. I mean I could post more pictures of groups of the Alt Knights showing up in Berkeley together.

I posted these to point out and meet your challenge to show a alt-right corollary to Antifa violence doers in Berkeley .

Their tactics, rhetoric, and willingness to engage in violence are remarkably similar.

 

[CowboyJD]

BTW JD, I just ignore NZ. Please don't associate my portions of our conversation with his positions.

I wasn't. I won't.

We are having a reasoned exchange.

He is trying to derail that with his bs.

I just needed to point that out.

 

[aix_xpert]

First one is based stickman in Berkely.

You seem to be now stating you need context for one group showing up armed and ready for combat, but not the other.

Which is kinda weird to me, but okay.

I posted these to point out and meet your challenge to show a alt-right corollary to Antifa violence doers in Berkeley .

Their tactics, rhetoric, and willingness to engage in violence are remarkably similar.

This is fair. I was aware of the Charlotte and a few of the clashes around the statue debacle. I was less aware of the armed 'right' side in the Berkeley conflicts.

As for context, my point is that I consider the scenario of extreme group fighting extreme group (say KKK vs. Antifa) such as we had in Charlotte different than BLM marching the streets of Baltimore and breaking windows, burning cars and general rioting or Antifa threatening violence to an entire community just because a Republican float was in a parade. I don't see the extreme right equivalent of those things. Maybe its there and I haven't seen it but frankly their methods don't appear to be impactful to those of us who are mostly neutral in the fight, whereas BLM shutdown a baseball game (Orioles played a game with zero fan attendance because downtown Baltimore wasn't deemed safe for 'civilians') and Antifa shutdown an Ann Coultier speach at a University. These weren't confrontations with other extremists, these were "F" everyone elses' positions.

 

[CowboyJD]

This is fair. I was aware of the Charlotte and a few of the clashes around the statue debacle. I was less aware of the armed 'right' side in the Berkeley conflicts.

As for context, my point is that I consider the scenario of extreme group fighting extreme group (say KKK vs. Antifa) such as we had in Charlotte different than BLM marching the streets of Baltimore and breaking windows, burning cars and general rioting or Antifa threatening violence to an entire community just because a Republican float was in a parade. I don't see the extreme right equivalent of those things. Maybe its there and I haven't seen it but frankly their methods don't appear to be impactful to those of us who are mostly neutral in the fight, whereas BLM shutdown a baseball game (Orioles played a game with zero fan attendance because downtown Baltimore wasn't deemed safe for 'civilians') and Antifa shutdown an Ann Coultier speach at a University. These weren't confrontations with other extremists, these were "F" everyone elses' positions.

The Portland Rose Parade incident involved a single anonymous email with threats. I could easily dig up similar threats from groups on the right.

I don't know that it is fair to put the Baltimore riots that shut down a baseball game down as an organized product of BLM. Baltimore has a history of extreme civil unrest and conflicts with police before the Freddie Grey incident.

My response to announced protests attempting to shut down other speakers would be a warning that mass protests without a permit will be immediate declared an unlawful assembly that will be dispersed and ended immediately. Then I would garner the forces necessary to enforce what I said in advance. Backing down doesn't do anyone any good.

 

[aix_xpert]

The Portland Rose Parade incite involved a single anonymous email with threats. I could easily dig up similar threats from groups on the right.

I don't know that it is fair to put the Baltimore riots that shut down a baseball game down as an organized product of BLM. Baltimore has a history of extreme civil unrest and conflicts with police before the Freddie Grey incident.

My response to announced protests attempting to shut down other speakers would be a warning that mass protests without a permit will be immediate declared an unlawful assembly that will be dispersed and ended immediately. Then I would garner the forces necessary to enforce what I said in advance. Backing down doesn't do anyone any good.

You are right in the fact that I am associating both of those events (and similar ones such as the protests in Ferguson, the shutting down of interstates through sit/stand-ins, and similar acts) as all on BLM and they may not be.

As for your response, I agree. In no case should we allow the extremists from either side prevent general discourse and discussion. Members of both sides have a right to their beliefs and even the right to express them. What neither side has is the right to use or promote violence in order to suppress those views that they disagree with.