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Epiphany

MegaPoke

MegaPoke

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saw Terry Schappert - former special forces guy on Guttfield tonight.

He said 'I wasn't a Trump guy, you weren't a Trump guy, but we are now reflexively defending Trump because we are reflexively defending ourselves.' - in explanation of the problem of identity politics tribalizing and hating people who voted for the guy for any reason.

I found the statement profound and the crowd seemed to also.
 
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The heart of populism - create the illusion of the pure being under attack from the elitists. Talk about identity politics...
 
MegaPoke said:
saw Terry Schappert - former special forces guy on Guttfield tonight.

He said 'I wasn't a Trump guy, you weren't a Trump guy, but we are now reflexively defending Trump because we are reflexively defending ourselves.' - in explanation of the problem of identity politics tribalizing and hating people who voted for the guy for any reason.

I found the statement profound and the crowd seemed to also.
Click to expand...

I never heard of Guttfield so looked him up. Still getting your stimulation from Fox I see. GIGO. Does he advocate anything constructive or just criticize other people for ratings?

How do you use "identity politics?" I looked it up and the definition (here we go again) is "a tendency for people of a particular religion, race, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics." Is that how you're using the phrase "identity politics?" If so, hasn't politics in practice always been about identity politics?

He has a point. The opposite is also true. I actually found myself empathizing with Hillary last year. I'm so offended by the corruption and constant lies and disinformation from her critics that I actually voted for her. The pizzagate deal was such a preposterous, published, unfair lie and I never heard a peep objecting to it from the right.
 
syskatine said:
I never heard of Guttfield so looked him up. Still getting your stimulation from Fox I see. GIGO. Does he advocate anything constructive or just criticize other people for ratings?

How do you use "identity politics?" I looked it up and the definition (here we go again) is "a tendency for people of a particular religion, race, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics." Is that how you're using the phrase "identity politics?" If so, hasn't politics in practice always been about identity politics?

He has a point. The opposite is also true. I actually found myself empathizing with Hillary last year. I'm so offended by the corruption and constant lies and disinformation from her critics that I actually voted for her. The pizzagate deal was such a preposterous, published, unfair lie and I never heard a peep objecting to it from the right.
Click to expand...

Lies like direct quotes from Hillary's emails?
 
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AC2017 said:
Lies like direct quotes from Hillary's emails?
Click to expand...

Like Biff denying Russian involvement in getting the emails over and over. Then admitting it, but only to criticize Obama. Like McConnell defeating any attempt to do something about it, back to September.



Like a tape of the Speaker and McCarthy knowing about it last summer and laughing, but they didn't know about it because they were laughing. And nobody on that side of the aisle doing shit in the meanwhile. And all of them taking Russian money.

Ssshhhhhhh, the emails.
 
MegaPoke said:
saw Terry Schappert - former special forces guy on Guttfield tonight.

He said 'I wasn't a Trump guy, you weren't a Trump guy, but we are now reflexively defending Trump because we are reflexively defending ourselves.' - in explanation of the problem of identity politics tribalizing and hating people who voted for the guy for any reason.

I found the statement profound and the crowd seemed to also.
Click to expand...
The guy has my thoughts spot on. I am not a Trump person (but certainly voted for him over Hillary), I detest the majority of his texting, and his public speaking skills do not wow me. But I agree with most all of his policies.
The anti-Trumpers are in full force and especially in the media. I've never seen such a widespread campaign to attack a President. CNN has jumped the shark.

I find myself actively rooting for Trump and against the media instinctively now. I would have never cared or thought much about the 6th district of GA vote in June, but I followed that closely because the media was dead set to make that an anti-Trump story. The wife and I actually high fived when Handel was announced the winner.

There is no doubt we are in an era of fake and/or biased news like we have never seen before (not just due to Trump, also it is due to the 24/7 news cycle from multiple media).

Other news: Millenials aren't all liberals. My daughter, who just finished her freshman year at OSU, told me that she only knows of one of her friends that voted for Hillary.
 
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cableok said:
The guy has my thoughts spot on. I am not a Trump person (but certainly voted for him over Hillary), I detest the majority of his texting, and his public speaking skills do not wow me. But I agree with most all of his policies.
The anti-Trumpers are in full force and especially in the media. I've never seen such a widespread campaign to attack a President. CNN has jumped the shark.

I find myself actively rooting for Trump and against the media instinctively now. I would have never cared or thought much about the 6th district of GA vote in June, but I followed that closely because the media was dead set to make that an anti-Trump story. The wife and I actually high fived when Handel was announced the winner.

There is no doubt we are in an era of fake and/or biased news like we have never seen before (not just due to Trump, also it is due to the 24/7 news cycle from multiple media).

Other news: Millenials aren't all liberals. My daughter, who just finished her freshman year at OSU, told me that she only knows of one of her friends that voted for Hillary.
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Your daughter and her friends aren't millennials. People born after 1995 are part of "Generation Z." They are turning out to be the most conservative generation since the WW II generation. In the last election their guys voted for Trump in a 4:1 ration and the women voted for Trump at a 60:40 ratio. Bad, bad news for the Democrats in 2020. The young ones see "progressivism" for what it is.
 
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Cableok agree completely with what you said. The libs/dems can't get out of their own way because the media has been carrying their water for them for decades. Now the lies, innuendo and piling on are doing the reverse mojo on them and they still want to try and relentlessly hammer the guy even though to just a causal observer it isn't working. All they are doing is ensuring Trump another term. But hey, this is the same group of people that declared the ex-rodent in chief "the smartest president ever....blah blah blah." So they can't be that intuitive.
 
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I liken it to my disregard for Rand Paul because I don't want to be in a situation to have to be lumped in with his crazy ass supporters.
 
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HRC tried to borrow from DJTs playbook and lost over credibility --- her message was essentially the same just "I'm purer" which proved to be a lousy idea.

Populism is about galvanizing an identity group as the pure v. elites who have usurped control. This is precisely the Trump message.
 
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davidallen said:
HRC tried to borrow from DJTs playbook and lost over credibility --- her message was essentially the same just "I'm purer" which proved to be a lousy idea.

Populism is about galvanizing an identity group as the pure v. elites who have usurped control. This is precisely the Trump message.
Click to expand...

Sounds about right David.
 
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davidallen said:
HRC tried to borrow from DJTs playbook and lost over credibility --- her message was essentially the same just "I'm purer" which proved to be a lousy idea.

Populism is about galvanizing an identity group as the pure v. elites who have usurped control. This is precisely the Trump message.
Click to expand...

As was Obama's
 
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davidallen said:
HRC tried to borrow from DJTs playbook and lost over credibility --- her message was essentially the same just "I'm purer" which proved to be a lousy idea.

Populism is about galvanizing an identity group as the pure v. elites who have usurped control. This is precisely the Trump message.
Click to expand...

Her message was the same? Seriously?

Many that voted for Trump just agreed with Trump's position on the issues. I know of no one that voted for Trump that liked him and some hated him even. But Trump had a clear message and clear policies he ran on, I do not have to repeat them because we ALL know what they were, even Democrats can repeat them.

Tell me what Hillary ran on? More of the same and hate Trump.

The sooner the democrats realize and admit they lost the election because they lost on the issues and they had a bad candidate, the better off the democrats will be.

Clinton was a poor candidate with no clear messaging and policies. Trump was a poor candidate with very clear messaging and clear policies. Trump was hated by the dems for his policy positions and being Trump, Hillary was hated because she was pardon the term, part of the swamp, even the dems knew she was a worn out lifetime political bureaucrat with huge baggage, but it was more important to break the "glass ceiling" against a candidate they believed they could have ran a dog against and won.
 
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OKSTATE1 said:
Her message was the same? Seriously?
Click to expand...
At a high level both candidates tried to personalize their campaigns - "I'm with her" - the campaign slogan itself eschewed a focus on issues and instead tried to make it personal in the same way the Obama did in '08. Now you can argue that is polar opposite from the outsider run of DJT - but at the heart of all three of those campaigns is the notion that someone outside the typical elite will bring the change that people want and need. Those are identical strategies that formed the core of all three campaigns messages.
OKSTATE1 said:
Many that voted for Trump just agreed with Trump's position on the issues. I know of no one that voted for Trump that liked him and some hated him even. But Trump had a clear message and clear policies he ran on, I do not have to repeat them because we ALL know what they were, even Democrats can repeat them.
Click to expand...
Trump was intentionally vague on policy detail. He stated very broad tenants - the slogan being the most notable - "Make America Great Again" - the sub tenets "America First" were what people were attracted to. Very few details were actually presented - a consistent critique by the media and others - by the Trump campaign.

Part of what dealt HRC a blow was she wanted it both ways - she did provide much deeper, wonkishly so, policy detail on her website and when she realized that her message wasn't competing with Trumps made a decent attempt to pivot to detail - but by that point it was much too late.
OKSTATE1 said:
Tell me what Hillary ran on? More of the same and hate Trump.
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I think I just did... but of course could go into much greater detail. Her politics mimics what made WJC and Tony Blair so successful - a pragmatic mix of social liberalism and financial conservatism - the Third Way. Trump did a very good job of characterizing that as more of the same focus on globalism at the expense of America.

Hate for Trump - that is never where a candidate wants to play from - it is a desperation move. The people who ran the campaign, if not the candidate, understood that well.
OKSTATE1 said:
The sooner the democrats realize and admit they lost the election because they lost on the issues and they had a bad candidate, the better off the democrats will be.
Click to expand...
You are restating the obvious - something almost everyone who was a Clinton supporter here has agreed with.
OKSTATE1 said:
Clinton was a poor candidate with no clear messaging and policies. Trump was a poor candidate with very clear messaging and clear policies. Trump was hated by the dems for his policy positions and being Trump, Hillary was hated because she was pardon the term, part of the swamp, even the dems knew she was a worn out lifetime political bureaucrat with huge baggage, but it was more important to break the "glass ceiling" against a candidate they believed they could have ran a dog against and won.
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The thing that made HRC unable to execute on her own version of the identity/populist message was the email releases. You could argue if it wasn't that, it would have been something else, but without a doubt, the insider baseball exposed by the emails was something she could not overcome.
 
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MegaPoke said:
That's actually a good example of why I found this quote spot on.

You reverse identity politics from the obvious source and then call my observation an illusion.

Pure was never implied or mentioned ITT.

Neither were elites.
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I don't think we actually disagree much... I am just pointing out the similarity of the Trump approach and HRC (actually a theme for many campaigns since WJC reunited the middle and liberal wing of the Dems).
 
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davidallen said:
I don't think we actually disagree much... I am just pointing out the similarity of the Trump approach and HRC (actually a theme for many campaigns since WJC reunited the middle and liberal wing of the Dems).
Click to expand...

And this follows my line of thought in another thread that we are basically all much closer on many topics than it seems. It's fun to argue and pontificate but at the end of the day very few people are extreme right or left.
 
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davidallen said:
Wrong. Just because it didn't resonate with you doesn't mean it didn't resonate with the majority of US voters.
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She's the ultimate sore loser. Had every advantage going into the campaign and blew it. Her remaining few years on this earth will be bitterly spent.
 
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davidallen said:
Wrong. Just because it didn't resonate with you doesn't mean it didn't resonate with the majority of US voters.
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I agree that she had something resembling a message in the primaries when she was in a race to be more progressive than Bernie. It was lost to "Not Trump" in the presidential race. I know I'm not the only one who noticed it. The interwebs are littered with Democrat commentary on it.
 
MegaPoke said:
And this follows my line of thought in another thread that we are basically all much closer on many topics than it seems. It's fun to argue and pontificate but at the end of the day very few people are extreme right or left.
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"...we are all basically much closer..."

I couldn't agree with you more. The argument between Republican and Democrat, right wing vs left wing, et al has always been a dispute between two statist philosophies. Neither side disputes the roll that government should play in our society. They both advocate a massive intrusion of the state into the lives of the individual. Their only disagreement is over who gets to control the levers of power. Those of us who argue on behalf of individual liberty are few and far between.
 
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Been Jammin said:
Fake news.
Click to expand...

Not really, just a bunch of liberals who got their jimmies rustled when a recent study by Old Dominion University profs indicated that a lot of illegals voted.

Check out the linkage:

http://www.heritage.org/election-integrity/commentary/do-illegal-votes-decide-elections

A 2014 study by three professors at Old Dominion University and George Mason University used extensive survey data to estimate that 6.4% of the nation’s noncitizens voted in 2008 and that 2.2% voted in 2010. This study has been criticized by many academics who claim that voter fraud is vanishingly rare. Yet the Heritage Foundation maintains a list of more than 700 recent convictions for voter fraud.

A postelection survey conducted by Americas Majority Foundation found that 2.1% of noncitizens voted in the Nov. 8 election. In the battleground states of Michigan and Ohio, 2.5% and 2.1%, respectively, of noncitizens reported voting. In 2013, pollster McLaughlin & Associates conducted an extensive survey of Hispanics on immigration issues. Its voter-profile tabulation shows that 13% of noncitizens said they were registered to vote. That matches closely the Old Dominion/George Mason study, in which 15.6% of noncitizens said they were registered.

Per the liberal Washington Times, 5.7 million non-citizens may have cast illegal votes.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/19/noncitizen-illegal-vote-number-higher-than-estimat/
 
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AC2017 said:
Not really, just a bunch of liberals who got their jimmies rustled when a recent study by Old Dominion University profs indicated that a lot of illegals voted.

Check out the linkage:

http://www.heritage.org/election-integrity/commentary/do-illegal-votes-decide-elections

A 2014 study by three professors at Old Dominion University and George Mason University used extensive survey data to estimate that 6.4% of the nation’s noncitizens voted in 2008 and that 2.2% voted in 2010. This study has been criticized by many academics who claim that voter fraud is vanishingly rare. Yet the Heritage Foundation maintains a list of more than 700 recent convictions for voter fraud.

A postelection survey conducted by Americas Majority Foundation found that 2.1% of noncitizens voted in the Nov. 8 election. In the battleground states of Michigan and Ohio, 2.5% and 2.1%, respectively, of noncitizens reported voting. In 2013, pollster McLaughlin & Associates conducted an extensive survey of Hispanics on immigration issues. Its voter-profile tabulation shows that 13% of noncitizens said they were registered to vote. That matches closely the Old Dominion/George Mason study, in which 15.6% of noncitizens said they were registered.

Per the liberal Washington Times, 5.7 non-citizens may have cast illegal votes.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/19/noncitizen-illegal-vote-number-higher-than-estimat/
Click to expand...

Even 2.5% seems significant.
 
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CBradSmith said:
With Hillary losing MI, WI, and PA with a combined number under 80,000, you'd think you would have an appreciation for the issue. Why don't you appear to?
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First off, that is water under the bridge. I'm not in favor of making excuses for her, or wasting my time wishing she was POTUS, instead of Trump.

Secondly, why do you think I don't care about illegals voting in the election? All I took issue with is AC's claim that "Millions of them voted". That implies that at least 2 Million voted in the election. I call BS on that until someone shows me some kind of convincing evidence.
 
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