Elk

[panhndlpoke]

Pictures pictures pictures

Ok, There's all my shooting shots from Saturday. The first pic is my fouling shots. Shot from the bipod, only two hit paper. I'm going to need to work on that.

Next three pictures are of the first three 5 shot groups from the Federal Trophy Bonded Tip 180 grain ammunition. After the first three groups, I was pretty sure I had my hunting ammunition, but I wanted to give the Trophy Copper and Nosler Trophy Grade Accubonds a chance. While both shot well and I think either could have grouped very close to what the Trophy Bonded Tip's did, I decided the search was over.

I had 5 rounds of Federal Trophy Bonded Tip's left and was curious about my opening bipod shots and how high and right they were so I loaded up 3 rounds of the 150 grain Winchesters and shot them off the bench. I didn't try to shoot perfection and just got lined up and squeezed the trigger. I was mostly checking to see if the gun was slinging them right or if my shooting style was doing it. You can see on the last picture that it is definitely my shooting style with the bipod. Like I said, I'm going to have to work on that.

Then, Since I had shot quite a few rounds through the rifle that morning and was curious if the group would suffer as a result of a dirty barrel (I was on round count 31 for the day) I loaded up the remaining 5 Federal Trophy Bonded Tip rounds and punch the paper 5 more times. That's the 2nd to the last photo, and the accuracy didn't seem to have changed.

Ok, so the first is my normal overlay of all 20 rounds onto the target. There are two high shots and 3 low shots, or 25% of the total. If you ignore those impacts, the group is a pretty nice tight area about the size of a half dollar. In the second photo, I gridded the overlay in 1/4" increments. I then plotted the 20 shots on an X,Y coordinates to get an average impact point which you can see just to the right of the number 13. It was about .25" left of center and about .85" high. While if I removed the 2 high and 3 low shots, it would have moved the center a little, I think it is still pretty representative of the center mass of the 15 rounds. As a result of this, I moved 1 click right and 9 clicks up. That should be close to 250 yards for a zero and a rough Maximum Point Blank Range of +/- 4" out to 325 yards or so. I'll test this extensively over the next couple weeks to get a better feel for it. I plan to be prepared for 400 yards or less, but can only do the MPBR out to around 325ish. I have ordered my CDS for the scope (https://www.leupold.com/resources/custom-dial-system/) but I do not know that it will arrive in time. If it does, I can easily sight for 200 yards and be plenty accurate to 400 with the dial, but until it does arrive, I'm relying on MPBR.

I'm pretty excited about the Trophy Bonded. It seems to feed better in the rifle than anything else and was dang sure plenty accurate for my needs. I've ordered 10 more boxes of it to play with, but will probably be practicing with some of the less expensive stuff after I go out to 250 and see how close I am with some of the Federal Trophy Copper or Nosler Accubond. If I'm there, then it will just be practice, practice practice. And less gun cleaning, thank goodness!

What do you all think?

 

[pokem]

excellent work. I most likely need to read in a little more detail, but I am confused on whats going on here... Are you adjusting powder and/or scope? Would expect grouping to be more consistent.

 

[panhndlpoke]

excellent work. I most likely need to read in a little more detail, but I am confused on whats going on here... Are you adjusting powder and/or scope? Would expect grouping to be more consistent.

Certainly. That's why I'm practicing. I'm going on an elk hunt and was trying to figure out which factory load with appropriate bullets for elk shot the best out of my rifle. I haven't shot a lot of heavier recoiling rifles and haven't shot any rifles regularly in a while. I purchased a new rifle so I was starting from scratch and breaking any bad habits I've developed over the years. Simply put, I'm not a very good shot any more. I started showing everyone what I was doing and just sort of kept on. It's been fun documenting the slow learning I've been going through, but I realize the groups are not as tight as they should be. That's part of the process. I do wish I had more time to practice, though.

 

[pokem]

Certainly. That's why I'm practicing. I'm going on an elk hunt and was trying to figure out which factory load with appropriate bullets for elk shot the best out of my rifle. I haven't shot a lot of heavier recoiling rifles and haven't shot any rifles regularly in a while. I purchased a new rifle so I was starting from scratch and breaking any bad habits I've developed over the years. Simply put, I'm not a very good shot any more. I started showing everyone what I was doing and just sort of kept on. It's been fun documenting the slow learning I've been going through, but I realize the groups are not as tight as they should be. That's part of the process. I do wish I had more time to practice, though.

10-4. My message reads pretty messed up. My apologies. Your groupings, espically considering your using factory loads, are pretty damn legit.

And your bteaking in a new rifle!!! Much respect.

Also enjoying the documentation.

I enjoy the range myself, and also wish I had more time for it.

My dream is to go on a bad ass Elk hunt someday myself. I look forward to hearing about yours.

 

[dtspoke]

Groups look good. I wouldn't hesitate shooting an elk out to 400 with those groups.

Minute of elk for sure.

 

[panhndlpoke]

10-4. My message reads pretty messed up. My apologies. Your groupings, espically considering your using factory loads, are pretty damn legit.

And your bteaking in a new rifle!!! Much respect.

Also enjoying the documentation.

I enjoy the range myself, and also wish I had more time for it.

My dream is to go on a bad ass Elk hunt someday myself. I look forward to hearing about yours.

No worries. You didn't insult me at all. I just wish I had some bad ass shooter to take the rifle and put a few rounds through it to tell me how much of the problem is me and how much is the rifle. Then I would have something to compare. As it is, I have to assume I'm shooting the best I can each time and hope I get better.

The elk trip is pretty lucky. My company does business with a firm that gives away a hand full of elk trips per year. Usually, we turn down "freebies" of this nature since they use it as a sales tactic to get more business. Since we already had an established relationship, we accepted the trip. I actually offered it to my brother for his son but was turned down. My brother and I flipped for it and I won. This is the outfitter: https://www.heycoloradobuck.com/rocky-top-outfitters.html You can see the hunt in New Mexico I'm going on Oct 1. I've spoken with Colorado Buck 2x, and he's actually a great conversation. At first, he tried to steer me to his rifles but realized we just didn't have time to put a package together before the hunt. I live 3 hours from the hunt I'm going on, so its also really convenient. Also, the hunting area I in is next to Vermejo Ranch and I've seen the bulls on that place before. Huge.

Anyway, I've had a sick baby all this week so I've been spending my morning with my wife to help with the twins instead of shooting. Hopefully I'll punch a few more holes in the next couple days.

 

[panhndlpoke]

I went and shot this morning. The rifle was all over the place. I had my 243 there as well, and while I wasn't awesome, I was shooting decent. The 300 WSM was terrible. At 200 yards, 1/2 the shots were off the plate. I've given the rifle to a friend who was in town that is a much better shot than I for testing. He will shoot it as is. If it shoots, it is me. If it shoots poorly, he'll swap out scopes to one of his. If it still shoots poorly, he'll try some different ammunition. If it still doesn't shoot, I'm sending it to Christensen.

 

[dtspoke]

Have you talked to anyone that has owned a Christensen? The reason I ask is that I know of one instance where he had all kinds of problems with his gun and I think it had to do with the Shilen barrel and the carbon fiber mating. It was in a 30-378. He could shoot lights out one day, then the next time he goes out the accuracy would fall apart.

I don't know for sure, but that's what i remember.

Of course that Leupold may have blown up. Lord knows I've ruined more scopes than I can count.

 

[TexasCowPoke]

If your .243 was shooting pretty well, it's not you with the 300 unless it's a flinch. I doubt that. Could be the scope or that the mounts have gotten loose. Seems it was doing pretty well before so I'd bet it's not the gun.

 

[panhndlpoke]

Very interesting. I shot well at 100 and couldn't get it to group at 200. He shoots this at 200:

It's a little higher than I want but pretty damn tight. That's about a .65" group or about .325" MOA. better than I shot but I was decent enough. And it grouped. How high it was could explain why I wasn't on paper. I may have adjusted the scope up too much but if 1/4 MOA = 1/4" at 100 yards, then I didn't.

Here's 300 yards best group:

Same set up a few minutes after the previous group. 4.5" maybe? So about 1.5" MOA or so. To be clear, that is nearly 5x as bad as his previous group, and this guy doesn't shoot 5x as bad time after time. If it had followed his previous group, all 3 shots would have fallen in less than 1 1/2 of those squares furthest. 1.5" from outside edge to outside edge of the two least close shots of the three. Instead, it is nearly 5" outside to outside.

I think something is up with the scope. I am going to swap scopes if he does not and see how I shoot.

So many times I would shoot and KNOW I shot EXACTLY like the previous shot and it would be 2" off at 100 yards. I no longer think I'm just rusty. I think my rifle has a glitch as well. Rifle, scope or something besides just me is up. Thank God. I was beginning to think I was crazy and a terrible shot. Crazy I can live with. Been that for years.

 

[Rulz]

Before I say this, let me preface by saying I am not an expert at all, and have little experience with long distance shooting....but what do you think is going on? A bit of lead fouling? Barrel heating up and throwing off the shot? Perhaps the barrel wasn't "bedded" properly?

I'm just curious since I am starting to explore this myself and my only experience is with my old 30-06 and a few turns with some buddies guns of lesser caliber. But as stated above, many thanks for the time you have spent on this project with the documentation here.

 

[dtspoke]

I think scope is the low hanging fruit, then it's going to be barrel whip. They turn down those barrels for the carbon fiber and occasionally they exhibit some inconsistencies from the resulting harmonics.

It's certainly not all of their barrels, but it does happen.

 

[TexasCowPoke]

That top group is great! I hope you can put new glass on there and the problem is solved.... DTS, I always "read" where the carbon fiber was supposed to help tame vibration while also making the barrel actually stiffer. Thoughts on that? ( I have to wonder if too much heat (from shooting repeatedly) might break down the resin in the carbon fiber matrix? That would be no bueno for the manufacturer)

 

[panhndlpoke]

Carbon fiber is stiffer than steel on a per pound basis. I am not sure that carbon fiber is stiffer on a volumetric basis too.

Honestly, if swapping scopes doesn't fix the problem, I am too far out of my depth, I wouldn't know what to do except send it back. Meanwhile, I'll have a hunt looming so I will be shooting another rifle in the mornings for practice.

 

[TexasCowPoke]

Agreed, You shouldn't have to mess with the rifle, especially with what those things cost, it should be problem free. Let us know how she does after the scope change.

 

[dtspoke]

Carbon fiber is stiffer than steel on a per pound basis. I am not sure that carbon fiber is stiffer on a volumetric basis too.

Honestly, if swapping scopes doesn't fix the problem, I am too far out of my depth, I wouldn't know what to do except send it back. Meanwhile, I'll have a hunt looming so I will be shooting another rifle in the mornings for practice.

Yep, by weight its stiffer but the steel is the spine of the barrel. When a barrel gets turned down its resilience to movement as the inertia travels the length of the barrel can be diminished

 

[panhndlpoke]

So I mounted a Nightforce scope I had on a 22 onto the rifle. It even had the same Nightforce rings on it that Leupold had. I will be out of town until Saturday so no shooting until Sunday

 

[panhndlpoke]

I was able to shoot in the scope this morning. Much easier than the previous scope. I'll upload the pictures and write up some comments later. At 300 yards I could not see the point of impact so I don't know the order of my shots. The rifle exhibited none of the strange changes in point of impact it had previously except when I threw a flier out there. I am out of town again until Friday so no more shooting for a day or two. I adjusted the scope once at 100 yards and then I moved it three clicks to the right after the last group at 300 yards. That may be 1 click too far. I'm comfortable with the rifle as it is to hunt elk now. Let's hope it stays that way.

Thoughts on the groups?

 

[panhndlpoke]

First pic: I shot the group on the right side. I moved the scope and shot 5 more rounds to see if it appeared right. It did, so I moved to 200 yards.

Second pic: I shot the first two shots. Saw that I was shooting left and reset. I got up, reset the sand bags and my position on the bench. I shot one of the centered shots, then the low and left shot then the 2nd shot near center. I started to pack it in, but then decided to move to 300 yards.

Third pic: As I stated earlier, I couldn't see my hits on the paper from my scope so I don't know which shot is the flier. Other than the flier, I'm pretty satisfied with this group. I obviously need to practice more, but if I can get the shots centered, I'm good. The line of shots is about 2.25 inches below the bulls which would be perfect and get me somewhere around 325 for -4 inches. I'll go ahead and test to 400 yards, but this makes me more secure that I'm good for an elk. I'm also really glad it took only one morning to get comfortable out to 300 or so. I did adjust the scope a little to the right and may move it back one.

Why would the previous set up be off? Well, there's the obvious answer in that the scope is defective. I doubt it is, though. The likelihood of that is pretty small. Also, when mounting scope rings, it can be difficult to get them perfectly centered to where the scope is not being flexed right or left or up or down, but I checked mine, and they were. My theory is that I had the scope too far forward, and I was straining to get close enough to see clearly through the scope. That makes repeat-ability much more difficult. It wouldn't explain my friend unless he was stretched, too. I will be sending the scope back to Leupold since I have a question about it and I want the reticle replaced.

If I can shoot again this week, I'll post up the shots and will see if I'm finally done with the randomness of the previous set up.

 

[panhndlpoke]

I went out this morning with my Kidd 22 (http://www.coolguyguns.com) and the Leupold scope. I couldn't get it to zero at 50 yards. It would shoot a tight group and then I'd adjust the scope a little and it wouldn't move. Or it would move a lot. I shot 200 rounds in 5 round groups and couldn't get a zero on the gun. I think I might have have a problem scope.

 

[dtspoke]

Sounds like the adjustment rings are either bad or sticking. I have a Zeiss that had really tight adjustments and occasionally it would stick. I put it on a vise then would adjust the windage and elevation to see if the reticles moved. When it didn't, I'd adjust, then tap it with my knife to make sure it adjusted.

After a while it quit sticking.

 

[panhndlpoke]

I haven't been able to shoot much, lately but went out a bit this morning. First picture is sitting and shooting off a bipod at 200 yards. The target is supposed to be roughly the same size as a live elk. Plenty good for my needs.

The 2nd photo is sitting off the bipod at 300 yards. I can't see the shots even with my cheap ass spotting scope so I have no idea which shot was the flyer. I will be practicing all week and hunting Friday. Let's hope I can keep those to a minimum.

 

[dtspoke]

That just looks great.

 

[panhndlpoke]

Friend of mine just shot this one near Roy, NM.

 

[dtspoke]

Geez, that thing is crowned like a stag.

 

[panhndlpoke]

He said rough 325

 

[TexasCowPoke]

Awesome bull!

Your Groups look like they will do the job.

 

[panhndlpoke]

Ok. I was really short of time this morning so I only took three shots at about 320 yards. The first shot was bottom left. I'm concerned on this one for two reasons. 1. I feel like it was lower than I was expecting and I usually aim too much in the brisket and not in the vitals. I do think all the shots were close on the vertical and horizontal to where I was aiming. The first shot I was obviously low, but I do think that I might be adjusted a little low for 300+ yards. I'll have to double check that this afternoon with another cold bore shot at 300+. The placement too far into the brisket is something I know I do. I just have to trust that what I "think" is right is too far forward relative to where I actually need to be. At 300 yards, I couldn't see the lines on the target so I'm just having to shoot to where I think I need to hit.

The second shot is the lower right shot. While not perfect, I do consider this a reasonable shot. It is about the right height on the animal and is going to destroy a lot of vital organs.

The last shot is the top middle shot. I actually shot a little before I was ready. While I don't consider this shot very ideal, it would likely be enough to kill the elk, if not anchor him.

I had drank a lot of coffee and eaten some m&m's and peanut trail mix I made for the hunt. I could see my heart beat in the scope pretty plainly and didn't help with my height adjustments. I made adjustments to my shot each time based on where the previous shot went. I do believe I might need to adjust the scope slightly up for the long shots. I can hold down pretty easy for the short shots better than I can hold high for the long shots.

 

[panhndlpoke]

Ok, I'm finally back in the real world where I can actually share photos. I left on the first, hunted the 2nd-6th and came home yesterday. I shot my elk on the 3rd at about 6 or so at night. It was 343 yards across a valley but about a mile walk from shot to where the last sight of the elk was. Our guide told us to stay put because he didn't want us to have to cross the ravine at night and he went across to look for the elk. The presentation was quartering away facing to the left. My shot hit a little towards the hind quarters relative to the perfect shot but still hit lungs and who knows what else. I did hit some gut and that meat was lost. The elk ran about 200-250 yards and the bullet was lodged in the skin on the far side so he didn't bleed at all that we could find.

There were 7 hunters in our group and the previous hunt by bow hunters included 8 hunters. Everyone shot in our group, 5 killed elk, 1 hit but never recovered an elk, and one never hit an elk. All bow hunters were successful in recovering their elk. I could have shot at least 4 bulls on my trip. How the one never was able to kill an elk is sort of baffling, but all hunts include a little luck and he had none, I guess. All elk rough scored over 300 in our group, except one that had a broken main beam before the whale tail and would have scored over 300 if it had something similar as the other side. It also had several broken points. You should be able to see them from the photographs. Mine scored about 319 and was the largest and heaviest rack, but wasn't very wide. The best score was about 325 and is next to me in the group photo. All told it was a great trip and well done.

The price of the trip is $6000 for archery and $7500 for rifle. Figure an additional $1000 for tags, licenses, fees, tips, and alcohol. The rest is covered. The Philmont Boy Scout Ranch charges $10,000 and Vermejo charges $13,500. I figured up the daily costs and estimate it at about $1000/day. I actually think the $7500 is a pretty reasonable price considering lease costs and expenses. It's just a damn expensive hunt to go on, but if you're less fit or too old or physically limited, this is a great real, non-canned hunt. The animals and conditions are wild, but the conditions are good enough that folks that can't get around well have a pretty good ability to have success.

Rocky Top Outfitters and Colorado Buck. What can I say? They're great. The guides all have day jobs of one sort or another and many were leaving after our hunt so they're not full season guides. Your guides could be completely different from ours, but they're good people and know what they're doing. Colorado Buck is very committed to having pleased customers and really worked hard to keep us happy. He's also pretty damn funny and has more hilarious stories than can be recounted in a 5 day trip. The service was fantastic but the facilities are pretty basic. We had intermittent electricity and internet and the "lodge" is just a small cabin way back in the woods. It has a kitchen/dining room, some bunk rooms, shower and a small living room. It did have dish network and a nice TV when the electricity was running. My guide was an electrician and after I killed my bull, he rewired the house and all the problems with blowing up generators (well over $10,000 in generators went up in smoke during our and the archery guys' stay) went away.

The hunting lodge is about 2 hours from Cimarron, NM but only about 15-20 miles. You have to cross the Philmont Scout ranch to get to it so we were limited to when we could go in/out. The road is very rough and the trip in is very slow. You'll need to bring every dang thing you want with you the first time.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. And yes, if some folks want to go next year, I'm very seriously thinking about doing it again. It was that good.

 

[TexasCowPoke]

Very nice! Congrats! Sounds like a great hunt.

 

[longrangebunnykiller]

Really nice bull, congratulations! I just found the thread, and while late to the party, wanted to throw in my $.02. Having hunted elk in NM for nearly 20 years, I've taken over a dozen bulls with a .7MM (140 grain Nosler partition, Federal Premium) - none over 350 yards. My opinion only, but it's more fun to stalk and bust than to shoot successfully from a mile away. I passed elk at 20 yds this year and never shot...on to next year! Oh, and if someone is interested in a .300 Weatherby Accumark, I have one to sell I'll be keeping my 7MM...

 

[dtspoke]

How much for the Weatherby?

 

[longrangebunnykiller]

@dtspoke I would take $650 for it and could deliver personally around Thanksgiving (next scheduled trip to OKC/Stillwater) or ship via FFL (+ fees) prior. It's essentially this gun; 26" stainless, fluted barrel, blue synthetic stock with some wear underneath, near the forward swivel (my doing) and a scratch on the bluing near the safety (bought that way). With the Zeiss Conquest 14x scope attached (essentially new), I'd sell for $1500. I also have several boxes of Weatherby ammo ($75+ / box new) in different grains and bullet styles which I could make a killer deal on. I can put up more pictures and get exact information if anyone is interested. I haven't tried the messaging feature on the new boards, but that might be the best way to keep from completely hijacking an otherwise informative thread!

 

[panhndlpoke]

Really nice bull, congratulations! I just found the thread, and while late to the party, wanted to throw in my $.02. Having hunted elk in NM for nearly 20 years, I've taken over a dozen bulls with a .7MM (140 grain Nosler partition, Federal Premium) - none over 350 yards. My opinion only, but it's more fun to stalk and bust than to shoot successfully from a mile away. I passed elk at 20 yds this year and never shot...on to next year! Oh, and if someone is interested in a .300 Weatherby Accumark, I have one to sell I'll be keeping my 7MM...

7mm Mag is what Colorado Buck recommended, but I wanted something with little a little more knockdown power in case I hit less than optimally. I have a 7mm that I hate and have sort of sold to my brother in law, but I just don't care for it. With the 300 WSM I can hunt pretty much anything in NA except maybe big brown bear. My rifle collection will go from 17 HMR, 22 LR, 223, 6mm SPC, 243, 300 WSM with a 30/30 in there that I don't really shoot after I sell my 7mm. I'll need something to fill that gap between 243 and 300 and have not decided what I want yet (260 Remington?) to fill the hole, but may just go back with another 7mm Mag that I like better.

As far as shooting from a mile away vs stalking, that's fine if you're in what I would consider less pressured to take a bull hunt than I was. If I was on public land that was less expensive, I would be much more focused on the hunt than getting the kill, if that makes sense. That would also allow me to take a smaller rifle that I would feel comfortable shooting at shorter distances than where we were hunting. It was fairly open in many areas we were hunting which made it more difficult to get a 300 class bull, which were plentiful but spooky.

My max shot was 350 yards from the beginning. This guy was truly at my max and I seriously questioned myself at taking the shot. In the end, I had a good shot in my window and took it. When I go again, I will be less pressured to shoot than I was this time.

 

[longrangebunnykiller]

As far as shooting from a mile away vs stalking, that's fine if you're in what I would consider less pressured to take a bull hunt than I was. If I was on public land that was less expensive, I would be much more focused on the hunt than getting the kill, if that makes sense.

That makes perfect sense. Compounded by (presumably) your unfamiliarity with the area as a guided hunter. I know if we travel just 15 minutes from our hunting area we come to completely different terrain (heavily forested vs high desert scrub) which must be hunted differently. No area is like the place you are used to. I probably should have kept my commentry more general. Sorry if it came out sounding like a know-it-all jerk! Truly great bull - and from the looks of the group picture, a fairly successful hunt for all involved! Oh, and I'm jealous of your rifle collection. My wife has designs on all of my future earnings for the forseeable future so I've resigned myself to sneaking small quantity ammo purchases until I can win the lottery

 

[panhndlpoke]

Absolutely no harm done or insult taken. I was on an all expenses paid hunt that cost me nothing except the bear tags I bought, the rifle and scope, and the blisters I got on my feet, but don't think for a second I didn't feel pressure to shoot a bull. Colorado Buck had a television show needs shooters for it. Heck, they even covered my taxidermy bill!

And my wife...yeah. She just doesn't care about getting Stuff. She would buy stuff for the kids and give presents to everyone, but she just doesn't worry about things for herself which means she doesn't mind if I get myself lots of things. But guilt always settles in and I end up buying her something. Probably wall paper for the dining room for the hunt.

 

[dtspoke]

@dtspoke I would take $650 for it and could deliver personally around Thanksgiving (next scheduled trip to OKC/Stillwater) or ship via FFL (+ fees) prior. It's essentially this gun; 26" stainless, fluted barrel, blue synthetic stock with some wear underneath, near the forward swivel (my doing) and a scratch on the bluing near the safety (bought that way). With the Zeiss Conquest 14x scope attached (essentially new), I'd sell for $1500. I also have several boxes of Weatherby ammo ($75+ / box new) in different grains and bullet styles which I could make a killer deal on. I can put up more pictures and get exact information if anyone is interested. I haven't tried the messaging feature on the new boards, but that might be the best way to keep from completely hijacking an otherwise informative thread!

Definitely interested in the rifle. I've got glass for it.

How is the barrel?

 

[panhndlpoke]

Colorado Buck just emailed me to let me know a group of 8 canceled their Oct 24-28elk trip to Cimarron where I hunted. Lost their deposits so the price would be $4500 per hunter. Let him know if interested. tel:254-559-4350