customs asking for ID coming off flight

[Rdcldad]

if someone is asking for my ID coming off a domestic flight out of priniple i'm going to tell them FU

i don't know the details, backstory or the law in this case, but i am not proving who i am to anybody coming off a domestic flight unless it's the law...

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/speeches-and-statements/statement-regarding-cbp-activity-jfk

 

[HighStickHarry]

I feel like this has happened to me before. I don't remember thinking about it after I got my Id back.

What's the problem? Catch some bad guys, I'll cooperate.

 

[Headhunter]

If law enforcement is looking for someone and they need to my ID to discern I'm not who they are looking for then I don't see what the issue is.

Do you not show ID at road blocks?

 

[Cowpoke]

If its a one off type thing, where there is a specific reason they are looking for someone in particular.... fine. But would you be comfortable if police started just randomly asking to see ID with no particular cause?

I know that isn't the case here, nor saying things will go there under Trump...I'm just curious in general who would be ok with that?

 

[Rdcldad]

never been at a roadblock but as i understand driving is a privilege not a right

i have a problem with getting off a plane and showing law enforcement my id i'll admit it

gives me the ick

 

[JimmyBob]

if someone is asking for my ID coming off a domestic flight out of priniple i'm going to tell them FU

i don't know the details, backstory or the law in this case, but i am not proving who i am to anybody coming off a domestic flight unless it's the law...

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/speeches-and-statements/statement-regarding-cbp-activity-jfk

You're posting opinionated shit on the internet without a f*king clue as to "the details, backstory or the law"; ever think of seeing a proctologist to de-rectumize your head. You'll breath better, but not so sure about the thought process.

 

[squeak]

if someone is asking for my ID coming off a domestic flight out of priniple i'm going to tell them FU

i don't know the details, backstory or the law in this case, but i am not proving who i am to anybody coming off a domestic flight unless it's the law...

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/speeches-and-statements/statement-regarding-cbp-activity-jfk

Better have probable cause.

 

[Rdcldad]

You're posting opinionated shit on the internet without a f*king clue as to "the details, backstory or the law"; ever think of seeing a proctologist to de-rectumize your head. You'll breath better, but not so sure about the thought process.

dayum jimmy you added some insightful brilliance to the thread

keep up the good work!

 

[OKSTATE1]

You’ve probably seen old movies where the protagonist is approached by a Nazi or Soviet guard and ordered to “show your papers.” We know that’s a tell-tale sign of a police state. So if police ever ask you to show ID during your travels, it’s natural to feel violated.

In a free society, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to “show their papers” to police. In fact, in the United States there’s no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.

So when can police ask for ID?
Carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline. These requirements have been upheld on the slippery premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.

From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to reveal their identity when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as “stop-and-identify” statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

As of 2013, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state’s law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you’re involved in illegal activity.

But how can you tell if an officer asking you to identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. So one way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you’re free to go. You can do this by saying “Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?” If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and don’t answer any more questions.

If you’re detained, you’ll have to decide if withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you’re on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state’s laws can help you make the best choice.

Remember that the officer’s decision to detain you will not always hold up in court. Reasonable suspicion is a vague legal standard, and police often make mistakes. So if you’re searched or arrested following an officer’s ID request, you may contact an attorney to discuss the incident and explore your legal options.

 

[JimmyBob]

dayum jimmy you added some insightful brilliance to the thread

keep up the good work!

No problem, low hanging fruit.

 

[CowboyJD]

Better have probable cause.

Nope. Don't need probable cause to ask for ID. Some states, don't need much of any reason.

 

[squeak]

Nope. Don't need probable cause to ask for ID. Some states, don't need much of any reason.

Wait wait wait. You are telling me that anytime a cop asks for my ID I have to show it?

 

[CowboyJD]

You’ve probably seen old movies where the protagonist is approached by a Nazi or Soviet guard and ordered to “show your papers.” We know that’s a tell-tale sign of a police state. So if police ever ask you to show ID during your travels, it’s natural to feel violated.

In a free society, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to “show their papers” to police. In fact, in the United States there’s no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.

So when can police ask for ID?
Carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline. These requirements have been upheld on the slippery premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.

From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to reveal their identity when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as “stop-and-identify” statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

As of 2013, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state’s law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you’re involved in illegal activity.

But how can you tell if an officer asking you to identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. So one way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you’re free to go. You can do this by saying “Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?” If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and don’t answer any more questions.

If you’re detained, you’ll have to decide if withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you’re on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state’s laws can help you make the best choice.

Remember that the officer’s decision to detain you will not always hold up in court. Reasonable suspicion is a vague legal standard, and police often make mistakes. So if you’re searched or arrested following an officer’s ID request, you may contact an attorney to discuss the incident and explore your legal options.

This is accurate....with the caveat that they don't need even reasonable suspicion to ask for your ID to see if you voluntarily comply during your non-detention citizen/officer encounter.

 

[CowboyJD]

Wait wait wait. You are telling me that anytime a cop asks for my ID I have to show it?

No. That is not what I'm telling you or what I said.

 

[squeak]

No. That is not what I'm telling you or what I said.

Ok, so they don't need probable cause?

 

[squeak]

No. That is not what I'm telling you or what I said.

You mean that is not what you're telling me "nor" what you said?

 

[Cowpoke]

You mean that is not what you're telling me "nor" what you said?

I think he's saying a cop can ask you for your ID no matter what. However if he doesnt have probable cause, you aren't actually required to do so.

Heck anybody has the right to ASK for your ID.

 

[CowboyJD]

Ok, so they don't need probable cause?

Nope.

Not to ask for your ID.

They don't need any level of suspiscion to attempt to engage you in a consensual, non-detention encounter and request your id to see if you are willing to voluntarily give it it. In that circumstance, you are under no compulsion to give it to them.

An officer needs reasonable suspicion, not probable cause, to detain you. If the state has a stop and identify statute, this is the point that you can be arrested for refusing to comply.

Probable cause doesn't factor in at all. Probable cause is the standard for an arrest and warrantless searches of movable vehicles.

 

[Cowpoke]

According to wikipedia, OK is not a stop and identify state.

 

[Cowpoke]

You’ve probably seen old movies where the protagonist is approached by a Nazi or Soviet guard and ordered to “show your papers.” We know that’s a tell-tale sign of a police state. So if police ever ask you to show ID during your travels, it’s natural to feel violated.

In a free society, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to “show their papers” to police. In fact, in the United States there’s no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.

So when can police ask for ID?
Carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline. These requirements have been upheld on the slippery premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.

From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to reveal their identity when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as “stop-and-identify” statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

As of 2013, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state’s law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you’re involved in illegal activity.

But how can you tell if an officer asking you to identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. So one way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you’re free to go. You can do this by saying “Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?” If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and don’t answer any more questions.

If you’re detained, you’ll have to decide if withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you’re on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state’s laws can help you make the best choice.

Remember that the officer’s decision to detain you will not always hold up in court. Reasonable suspicion is a vague legal standard, and police often make mistakes. So if you’re searched or arrested following an officer’s ID request, you may contact an attorney to discuss the incident and explore your legal options.

Good read.

 

[CowboyJD]

I think he's saying a cop can ask you for your ID no matter what. However if he doesnt have probable cause, you aren't actually required to do so.

Heck anybody has the right to ASK for your ID.

Reasonable suspiscion and a stop and identify statute in place = actually required to do so.

No stop and identify statute in place = not actually required at all, but not doing so will increase detention time for a long time while they attempt to identify you in other ways.

 

[pcaggie]

If I don't need an ID to vote in most places, why would i need one to fly? Shouldn't I just be able to sign something that claims I paid for my flight?

 

[OKSTATE1]

If I don't need an ID to vote in most places, why would i need one to fly? Shouldn't I just be able to sign something that claims I paid for my flight?

Because you are not an illegal immigrant, they have no ID's and do not have to follow the law, just US citizens have to follow the law.

 

[CowboyJD]

According to wikipedia, OK is not a stop and identify state.

That is correct. My advice, as a former criminal defense lawyer, would be that if an officer indicates you are being detained and not free to leave at this time and then asks for your id....you probably ought to go ahead and give it to him even though you won't get arrested for refusing. You'll likely end up arrested for something at that point though. At a minimum you'll be detained for a significantly longer period of time while it is sorted out. Why cause more trouble for yourself?

 

[JimmyBob]

Gawd, I haven't had this much entertainment since I brought back elephant ivory carvings from the Ivory Coast in '84 (legal then) and got the big search from the Fish & Game crew at DFW because I declared "carvings", but not "ivory".

 

[Cowpoke]

That is correct. My advice, as a former criminal defense lawyer, would be that if an officer indicates you are being detained and not free to leave at this time and then asks for your id....you probably ought to go ahead and give it to him even though you won't get arrested for refusing. You'll likely end up arrested for something at that point though. At a minimum you'll be detained for a significantly longer period of time while it is sorted out. Why cause more trouble for yourself?

Makes sense.

So what are the requirements for detainment in general (unrelated to id question)?

 

[JimmyBob]

Makes sense.

So what are the requirements for detainment in general (unrelated to id question)?

You tee'd it up - :

 

[CowboyJD]

1.Gotchya. So in Oklahoma, an non stop and identify state, if a cop just randomly asks for ID, with no apparent reason... I'm not required to present my id.....but can they detain me?





Makes sense.

2.So are there no requirements for detainment in general (unrelated to id question)?

This is the way I explain it to cops.

There are typically three types of citizen/police encounters:

1. Mutually consensual encounters
2. Investigatory detentions, also know as Terry stops after the SCOTUS case that set the standard
3. Arrests

The first requires no level of suspiscion to engage in, but the citizen is free to end it and is under no compulsion to comply with any request from police made during it.

Second requires reasonable suspiscion that the citizen is engaged in criminal activity. You can restrict their movement for the period of time to complete the investigative activity.

Arrest requires probable cause.

The three different situations are pretty fluid in that they can develop into the next one if the required standard is established. A voluntary encounter may lead to receiving information that leads to a reasonable suspiscion which means that the officer can detain the citizen during the Terry stop which could lead to evidence establish enough probable cause for arrest.

If a cop randomly asks you for your id, you may or may not be detained at that time. If you want to know if you are being detained ask the officer if you are free to go. If you aren't detained, refusal to present id as requested (alone) can't properly lead to you being detained. If you are already being detained, refusing to present id when requested doesn't lead to arrest (in a non-stop and identify state), but will likely increase the time of your detention while they make further efforts to identify you.

 

[Cowpoke]

This is the way I explain it to cops.

There are typically three types of citizen/police encounters:

1. Mutually consensual encounters
2. Investigatory detentions, also know as Terry stops after the SCOTUS case that set the standard
3. Arrests

The first requires no level of suspiscion to engage in, but the citizen is free to end it and is under no compulsion to comply with any request from police made during it.

Second requires reasonable suspiscion that the citizen is engaged in criminal activity. You can restrict their movement for the period of time to complete the investigative activity.

Arrest requires probable cause.

The three different situations are pretty fluid in that they can develop into the next one if the required standard is established. A voluntary encounter may lead to receiving information that leads to a reasonable suspiscion which means that the officer can detain the citizen during the Terry stop which could lead to evidence establish enough probable cause for arrest.

If a cop randomly asks you for your id, you may or may not be detained at that time. If you want to know if you are being detained ask the officer if you are free to go. If you aren't detained, refusal to present id as requested (alone) can't properly lead to you being detained. If you are already being detained, refusing to present id when requested doesn't lead to arrest (in a non-stop and identify state), but will likely increase the time of your detention while they make further efforts to identify you.

Ahh that clarifies it, thanks. Good stuff to know.

 

[CowboyJD]

Ahh that clarifies it, thanks. Good stuff to know.

This is the game plan at the end of traffic stops where an officer thinks there might be something more going on....

1. Do you mind answering a couple of questions before you leave (request for a consensual encounter);
2. Ask questions;
3. Develop reasonable suspiscion based upon answers (at that point you can keep them from leaving while you ask more) or probable cause leading to the authority to search the vehicle.

 

[Ostatedchi]

I've basically always taught my kids to ask two questions when talking to a cop.

Am I free to leave? IF yes leave.
IF no, ask for a lawyer.
End conversation.

 

[Rdcldad]

Gawd, I haven't had this much entertainment since I brought back elephant ivory carvings from the Ivory Coast in '84 (legal then) and got the big search from the Fish & Game crew at DFW because I declared "carvings", but not "ivory".

dang jimmy that's cool!!!

next anecdote you gonna tell us you're swinging 14 or have one of those little flippy badges in the back pocket of your tactical pants?