Cliffs on this right to farm 777 bill
- Thread starter Alpha Poke
- Start date
A few comments and observations from someone who has been in the agriculture industry their entire life:
1. If passed it will not change any existing laws or regulations.
2. If passed it will make it much more difficult to regulate any existing farming/ranching practices.
3. The 2 largest farmer groups in the state (Farm Bureau and American Farmers and Ranchers) are both for it.
4. Farm Bureau has spent the most money campaigning for it and also helped craft the language of the bill.
5. The intent of the bill was to stop future nuisance laws from being passed like have been happening on the east/west coasts. (i.e. banning farrowing crates, reducing livestock emissions)
6. The primary group in opposition and who is paying for the no advertisements is the Humane Society of the U.S.
7. Some of the no ads are laughable and pretty much not true. For example, their is no threat of Chinese corporations taking over farms in Oklahoma because current state law prevents it.
8. If passed the Oklahoma Supreme Court will eventually have to decide what a "compelling state interest" actually means.
9. Every farm/rancher I have talked to is for it.
10. I have talked to a lot of other people who are opposed but make some valid points against passage.
1. If passed it will not change any existing laws or regulations.
2. If passed it will make it much more difficult to regulate any existing farming/ranching practices.
3. The 2 largest farmer groups in the state (Farm Bureau and American Farmers and Ranchers) are both for it.
4. Farm Bureau has spent the most money campaigning for it and also helped craft the language of the bill.
5. The intent of the bill was to stop future nuisance laws from being passed like have been happening on the east/west coasts. (i.e. banning farrowing crates, reducing livestock emissions)
6. The primary group in opposition and who is paying for the no advertisements is the Humane Society of the U.S.
7. Some of the no ads are laughable and pretty much not true. For example, their is no threat of Chinese corporations taking over farms in Oklahoma because current state law prevents it.
8. If passed the Oklahoma Supreme Court will eventually have to decide what a "compelling state interest" actually means.
9. Every farm/rancher I have talked to is for it.
10. I have talked to a lot of other people who are opposed but make some valid points against passage.
Great post, thank you. I also have LOL'd about the Chinese corporations. And "permanently" changing the OK Constitution...
Can you share some of the opposition points you've heard that you have found to be most compelling/somewhat persuasive?
Agreed, the way it is written is weak and unnecessarily confusing. I think the SQ 792 is the same way.
I'm voting YES on all the questions except 779, and I have not decided on 781.
The 2 most compelling arguments I have heard against the bill are the poor language used that will be open to interpretation by attorneys and the courts and the reality that we simply don't know what technologies and best management practices for agriculture will be in the future. For example, if a currently used chemical is determined by science in the future to cause extreme environmental damage it will be very difficult to prohibit farmers/ranchers from using it.
I absolutely hate that 19.25% of the ~$615MM goes to higher education. Ridiculous. 100% should be going to PK-12, thanks Boren.
Regardless, I'm voting for 779.
Regardless, I'm voting for 779.
Noble intentions (by some, not Boren IMO), but a very poor vehicle.
Few options to address a critical situation IMO. Sales tax seems reasonable to me and makes it where everyone has skin in the game.
Allowing districts to independently choose to raise funds for teacher pay above state appropriations is huge also. It's quite fn insane that they can't do that now.
To me, this bill should be step 1 of about 10 total to fix this embarrassment of an education system in our state.
Allowing districts to independently choose to raise funds for teacher pay above state appropriations is huge also. It's quite fn insane that they can't do that now.
To me, this bill should be step 1 of about 10 total to fix this embarrassment of an education system in our state.
Sales tax, particularly as it is structured in OK, is the most regressive tax there is. We will have the HIGHEST sales tax in the nation. Wealthier people are also better able to avoid sales tax than poorer individuals.
I agree that there aren't a lot of obvious options. I just don't think this is the answer. The problem is that OK just doesn't have a broad enough tax base.
I agree that there aren't a lot of obvious options. I just don't think this is the answer. The problem is that OK just doesn't have a broad enough tax base.
It's a necessary evil to fund local government. What percentage of the pie that's sales, property or other is inconsequential, it's the size of the pie that matters.
We, in general, enjoy very low state and local taxes, comparatively speaking.
I lived in center city philly which had a 6% city wage tax (fn nuts), which is why the burbs have blown up in the past 35 years there. I would also drive to Delaware to buy my TV, a state with no sales tax that collected a lot more state/local taxes per citizen than Ok. States are going to get it one way or the other, ours is just late to the game IMO. Hell, if they proposed something similar to universally improve our roads I'd vote yes for that too.
I just can't stand living here and nobody GAF that we suck at basically anything important funded locally.
The TW had polling numbers at ~60% yes as of last week to support 779, for whatever that's worth. We prolly suck at local polling too.
We, in general, enjoy very low state and local taxes, comparatively speaking.
I lived in center city philly which had a 6% city wage tax (fn nuts), which is why the burbs have blown up in the past 35 years there. I would also drive to Delaware to buy my TV, a state with no sales tax that collected a lot more state/local taxes per citizen than Ok. States are going to get it one way or the other, ours is just late to the game IMO. Hell, if they proposed something similar to universally improve our roads I'd vote yes for that too.
I just can't stand living here and nobody GAF that we suck at basically anything important funded locally.
The TW had polling numbers at ~60% yes as of last week to support 779, for whatever that's worth. We prolly suck at local polling too.
779 - What's the alternative to yes? Just live with the crappiest schools and worst teacher pay in the nation? The legislature is not competent to deal with this problem.
The only other alternatives is to expand the current sales tax base or raising taxes on the oil and gas industry and the legislature is unwilling to do that. Raising any kind of taxes in Oklahoma is next to impossible.
I'm all for keeping taxes low but something has to be done. We could get it from oil and gas since Oklahoma collects less tax (as a %) from our oil and gas producers than just about any oil and gas state. I don't know of any state who takes less of a %. But once again the powerful in this state would rather squeeze it out of the citizens than get more from oil and gas.
I'm voting yes on 779 because frankly there is no other option and Oklahoma secondary and higher education are in desperate need of the money.
Oklahoma is going to be the laughing stock of education if it is not already.
The only other alternatives is to expand the current sales tax base or raising taxes on the oil and gas industry and the legislature is unwilling to do that. Raising any kind of taxes in Oklahoma is next to impossible.
I'm all for keeping taxes low but something has to be done. We could get it from oil and gas since Oklahoma collects less tax (as a %) from our oil and gas producers than just about any oil and gas state. I don't know of any state who takes less of a %. But once again the powerful in this state would rather squeeze it out of the citizens than get more from oil and gas.
I'm voting yes on 779 because frankly there is no other option and Oklahoma secondary and higher education are in desperate need of the money.
Oklahoma is going to be the laughing stock of education if it is not already.
Higher education took a 16% cut this year. They are also in desperate need of this money.
In case anyone is wondering I got my information directly from Dr. Halligan.
Oklahoma has historically been lacking in funding for general education. And yes, it's true that the recent cuts have been steep. But OK has already been regarded as a "laughingstock" for some time. If you don't pass a crappy bill the legislature will be forced to do something to address it differently.
Sales tax is the ONLY vehicle cities have for funding their operations. I'd prefer a broad range of measures specifically targeted at general education -- roll back state income tax cuts, institute a state layer of property tax specifically earmarked for education, increase some taxes on oil and gas, etc.
I will almost guaranty the revenue raised will fall short of projections. Like you said, it appears it will pass.
Sales tax is the ONLY vehicle cities have for funding their operations. I'd prefer a broad range of measures specifically targeted at general education -- roll back state income tax cuts, institute a state layer of property tax specifically earmarked for education, increase some taxes on oil and gas, etc.
I will almost guaranty the revenue raised will fall short of projections. Like you said, it appears it will pass.
They're still in the black in my book given raises in tuition 14 times that of inflation over the past 30 years.
There is no entity that rivals the homeless dude standing on the corner with their hand out more than colleges and universities.
Shit, I think all they do anymore is beg for money. Because I've interviewed many of their recent grads and educating apparently isn't hitting their radar. Sorry, had to vent.
Alone, the higher ed portion would flop with single digit support.
"roll back state income tax cuts, institute a state layer of property tax specifically earmarked for education, increase some taxes on oil and gas, etc."
All better ideas than the one on the ballot. I'll prolly end up holding my nose when I vote for this one.
All better ideas than the one on the ballot. I'll prolly end up holding my nose when I vote for this one.
- It probably wouldn't
- Not everyone can pay as much tax as you and I can on food, medicine, clothing
Another funding idea I had, and I'm sure there would have to be some constitutional overhaul or something is: charge some amount of sales tax on gasoline and diesel sales. I'm taking about on top of the per gallon tax. I'd make it more on diesel probably.
Better education leads to brighter kids. Brighter kids leads to a more viable, knowledgeable workforce. A better workforce means folks who don't have to be relegated to McDonald's and can afford taxes better.
It all starts with better schools. Full stop.
Full disclosure: my wife is a public school teacher. Would it shock anyone on here to learn there are many teachers who qualify for food stamps? It is the reality we are facing. #VoteYesOn779
A lot of people who'll be paying the taxes now work at places like McDonald's or the equivalent.
Someone will always have to. I agree that education helps people progress; however it isn't a magic panacea that will suddenly create a vibrant economy with a broader tax base. If the kids all become brighter and there aren't jobs here, they will move to another state.
Understand: I'm not saying we don't need MORE funding FOR TEACHERS, and probably a few other areas.
The legislature figured out a way to off set the money education was to get from the lottery which was less than they estimated anyways, they'll eventually figure out a way of stealing this sales tax money also but they are to incompetent to fix this problem in any meaningful way in the near future so we need to give teachers a desperately needed raise.
BTW this measure only gives them half of what is needed to get them up to the regional average.
BTW this measure only gives them half of what is needed to get them up to the regional average.
779 is a POS. 20% for higher ed is ridiculous considering common Ed can't even afford to hire teachers or have school for 5 days a week. MJD has already covered the reasons for why sales tax is an awful way to fund it.
The solution is to fire your representative and senator and elect some that have a clue.
I can tell you one thing, at double digit sales tax rates Amazon Pantry is going to love Oklahoma.
The solution is to fire your representative and senator and elect some that have a clue.
I can tell you one thing, at double digit sales tax rates Amazon Pantry is going to love Oklahoma.
Don't forget the 8% that is going to the State Dept. of Education "for further development of early childhood education programs".
Unless the top heavy school administrations are forced to shed the dead weight, no penny sales tax is going to be available to hire the teachers needed to propel Oklahoma into the top 30. How many independent school districts does Oklahoma actually need? The answer is not more than 500. Condolidation isn't the death nail the suits make it out to be. It's smart financially. Until Oklahoma addresses the rampant waste of education dollars, I'll vote no to anything proposed.
Consolidation is great as long as it's "nimby", but gawd forbid closing "my" school, blah, blah, blah... This argument isn't quite the age of dirt, but it never dies.
Ms. J. returned to teaching in '88 after the death of her husband, and commented tonight that teachers leaving the state, etc. has been around that long. I know the state's education system is in meltdown, but the last thing that will fix it is the highest sales tax in the country. I'll vote no, and if I was dead and a Dem., I'd do it often.
The fact that most Oklahomans think death knell is actually a nail says all you need to know about our education system.
It sucks. It's embarrassing. Money alone won't fix it, but it's a start.
It sucks. It's embarrassing. Money alone won't fix it, but it's a start.
Last nail in the coffin is what I referenced. Not the bell. But thanks anyway Mr. English teacher.
Well, perhaps the first one who should get a clue who be you because it's not 20%, I was just trying to make a point.
But if we have learned anything this election it is, "if it is on the interwebs, it must be true!"
He meant 20% will be directed to higher education. It's actually 19.25%.
This irony is like melted butter mixed with sugar and cream cheese and piled on cinnamon rolls.
this is the problem. throwing money at it, no matter what well conceived plan you might have, will just get pissed away. Not a huge amount of sympathy for the teachers...I know a few who work until noon, 9 months a year with insurance and all the benefits and make the same as many middle management people at local companies who work twice as many hours. The system gets played and the longer you are in it the more you abuse it. Can't blame them, but it's the entire system and it has little chance of being successful...it's just a big mess. Not sure it's entirely incompetence, but something close to that. The incompetence runs all the way to the capital.
Doubling down. Nice.
Bell, nail, knell...who gives a shit? Says no educated individual, ever. Igit.
Why I'm voting NO for 779:
Liquor By the Drink-will bring in tax money for education...you know..."for our children"
Parimutual Gambling-will bring in tax money for education...you know..."for our children"
Lottery-will bring in tax money for education...you know..."for our children"
Every stinkin' time there is a tax of some sort, they parade out "for our children" and say it will help fund education. But yet here we are...another tax "for our children" and the need for more money. And people buy into it. The Teacher's Union has done a great job of doing what all unions do best:
1. Workers never make enough money
2. Workers never have enough benefits
3. Workers are protected by length of service even if they are doing a crappy job.
Here is a novel idea, rather than rewarding politicians with giving them more tax money to donkey around with, how about looking for other ways to improve our state education system. Start by school district consolidation. Get rid of administration layers. Money does not fix all things but it is the lazy excuse to place blame. I guarantee after they gig us for this tax (oh yeah people are going to vote yes for this...you know, for the children") it won't be enough and they'll be more excuses and other attempts at taxation.
Oh yeah, I'm for 777.
Liquor By the Drink-will bring in tax money for education...you know..."for our children"
Parimutual Gambling-will bring in tax money for education...you know..."for our children"
Lottery-will bring in tax money for education...you know..."for our children"
Every stinkin' time there is a tax of some sort, they parade out "for our children" and say it will help fund education. But yet here we are...another tax "for our children" and the need for more money. And people buy into it. The Teacher's Union has done a great job of doing what all unions do best:
1. Workers never make enough money
2. Workers never have enough benefits
3. Workers are protected by length of service even if they are doing a crappy job.
Here is a novel idea, rather than rewarding politicians with giving them more tax money to donkey around with, how about looking for other ways to improve our state education system. Start by school district consolidation. Get rid of administration layers. Money does not fix all things but it is the lazy excuse to place blame. I guarantee after they gig us for this tax (oh yeah people are going to vote yes for this...you know, for the children") it won't be enough and they'll be more excuses and other attempts at taxation.
Oh yeah, I'm for 777.
Nope. Just a reader of posts, your dumb ones to be precise. Go ahead, put me out of my misery by delivering the death nail.
