Bob Higgs Explains Trump’s Economic Understanding
- Thread starter Ponca Dan
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I clicked on the link. All I saw was a severe case of butt hurt.
That’s probably a good way to put it. Higgs is 73 years old, a highly respected economic historian, author of “The Crisis and Leviathan” books. Original proponent of the theory that governmental agents “create” a crisis in people’s minds and promise they are the only ones who can “solve the crisis.” All it requires is the people relinquish only a little of their liberty, they won’t/can’t be protected any other way. So we placidly watch as our liberty is whittled away a little bit at a time until one day we look up to discover Leviathan has been resurrected.
Higgs sees that happening in America and he’s butt hurt about it.
He is correct about the importance of 'Made in Mexico' in our economy. No denying that. But he doesn't see the point of Trump's threat, that the US is pretty darn important to the Mexican economy. So important, the Mexican government may actually do something about the border crisis. I sincerely doubt it, but Trump is not just going to sit there, do nothing, and let the invaders have their way. I think he is dead-serious.
I think you’re correct. Trump, in a display of extreme hubris, coupled with astonishing economic ignorance, may very well shut the entire border. Here’s an opinion on what will be the result by Mike Sherlock. It may damage the people of Mexico worse than us, but the damage here will not be pretty. It’s kind of a “cut off your nose to spite your face” situation. Trump doesn’t seem to understand that. We can only hope his economic advisors can talk some sense into him.
https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/
How much is it costing us to deal with the increased numbers of illegals? You and I both know it isn't revenue neutral.
We’ve gone over this before. My opinion has not changed. The reform needed is to eliminate the free stuff. Eliminate the free stuff and the immigrants do become revenue neutral, with the added bonus that we haven’t given up any of our liberty.
The choices you want to argue are lose-lose. I’m not interested in choosing either side when both options are bad.
My question involves current reality, not a wish list for the future.
Current reality is what has you so worked up. You’ve been spoon fed a crisis and you’ve bought into it. You and I are offering opinions on how to resolve the issue. That makes ANY solution a wish list. To declare Trump’s Wall as an example of reality is just as foolish as you’re insisting my reform is not.
I'm so worked up? Dan, you sure like to weasel your way out of answering a simple question by introducing some sly ad hominem. It seems to be your default these days. Why do get bothered by current reality? It costs money to deal with illegals, actual tax dollars.
I hadn’t realized I was weaseling out on answering your question. I didn’t know you were looking for a dollars and cents answer. My precise answer is this: I don’t have the foggiest idea how much illegal immigrants cost the American taxpayer. I would guess it’s in the billions. Kind of like Trump’s Wall.
There is no crisis? Heck, even Obama's people are now acknowledging that.
Yes, it’s interesting how statists manage to join together in the recreation of Leviathan, isn’t it?
No. It obviously works fairly effectively where there is a wall.
You’ll never pull your head out of your butt on open borders. THAT is the Nirvana Fallacy. In reality nothing about open borders is good for our liberty.
You would have to get rid of everything that attracts, endangers or exploits them and that’s not happening anytime soon. So if it’s a wall or nothing, I’ll take a wall thank you.
I have serious doubts that a wall will prevent the “invasion” as long as “everything that attracts, endangers or exploits them” remains untouched.
A government can’t control outsiders without first having control of those on the inside. That seems to be a reality so many of you fail to understand.
Trump’s wall can be used to keep us in just as easily as to keep them out. And now the man wants to single-handedly close the entire border, wreaking havoc on our economy. And so many of you are cheering it on! It’s really disappointing.
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How stupid do you think we all are? Anyone here with a modicum of common sense knows the free shit will "never" be eliminated for them. It must be nice living in la-la land, but the real world's a bitch; it ain't gonna happen.
So if I understand you correctly, you are saying let’s keep all the free stuff flowing, make no effort to eliminate it or even reduce it, but build a wall to make it harder for them to get here, but if they succeed in getting here we’ll give them free stuff, but the wall will stop them from trying to get here. And failing that we should let one man, our emperor, shut down the border with Mexico effectively sending us into a recession. And that, you conclude, is a reasonable action. Do I have it right?
Make no mistake, barriers/walls work ask the Hungarian govt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier
Looks to me like the % dropped my a huge amount and I would accept that kind of % drop any day here.
I’m sure you’re right. Have you considered the price we will pay (and I’m not talking only about the money)?
Want a bit more information?
https://en.s4c.news/2018/11/02/__trashed-3/
They made some great changes to illegal border crossing and the ability to cry for asylum too.
https://en.s4c.news/2018/11/02/__trashed-3/
They made some great changes to illegal border crossing and the ability to cry for asylum too.
Short term pain for everyone involved, but long term gain for the US. We have to save our country. Hungary and the rest of "Eastern" Europe are glad they built that wall.
I mean these questions with all sincerity. What are you seeing will be the short term pain? And are you convinced a wall, or worse, closing the border East Germany style, will elimininate any possible long term pain? And from what do you think we will be saved?
So billions every year for illegals is OK (I know you're going to throw in your fantasy that illegals cost nothing if we [blank], but we're in reality mode here). An upfront cost of billions for physical barriers to mitigate the flow of illegals to reduce the numbers and associated cost isn't OK. Do you not see the disconnect?
You brought up pain, I was just trying to be positive and call it short term. I really dont know what could be worse than the pain the US currently has.
I am convinced a wall would make a huge difference in illegal border crossings and a big dent on the drug trade. I do not think we need an E. German style border. (who has said that?) I do not have a problem with putting some pressure on Mexico by closing it for a short period though.
Walls work. I’ve conceded that walls quell the inflow. My argument has never been exclusively that walks don’t work. Have you considered that Trump’s Wall May some day be compared to the Berlin Wall?
I refer you to my reply to JimmyBob. I do not consider it unreasonable for conservatives and libertarians to push for a reduction, with the ultimate goal being a complete cessation of free stuff for non citizens.
I do consider it unreasonable for US citizens to demand they pay for a wall, or worse, close the border (which was the point of the original link), with the requisite infringement on the property rights of local citizens, the inescapable infringement on our travel choices, the certain corruption of various border agents, the inevitable “security checkpoints” (which already exist, by the way), and a myriad of other unintended consequences that government policies always cause. All because DJT rode the “crisis” to electoral victory, and is using it to reassure his re-election.
IMO your position is much closer to wishful thinking than advocacy of a “realistic” policy. To refuse to even try to reduce the free stuff as “la-la land” is giving up on a plan that would really solve the crisis without even trying. You’re conceding defeat before the game begins.
Dan you and I agree on a lot. Borders aren’t one of them. Open borders will get us to the point of worrying about fascism faster than any wall at this point.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.
1). Canada? You mean because there won’t be a wall on the US/Canadian border? What’s to stop one bring built once the US/Mexican precedent has been established?
2). 2nd Amendment? You mean because citizens have pistols and rifles? The military has tanks and fighter jets and the like.
3). Berlin is landlocked. Is that a concesserion on your part that because we border two oceans that walls would be pointless?
Yes, we probably agree on more than disagree. It’s ironic you brought up open borders will lead to fascism. I just read a short essay saying exactly the opposite. It’s where I got the point that in order to control outsiders a government first has to control the insiders. I’ll try to find it and link it for you.
Found it:
https://reason.com/archives/2019/03/29/restrictionism-is-the-road-to-fascism-in
Huh? My position is that walls and physical barriers work all around the world for all kinds of purposes. It makes perfectly logical sense to construct additional physical barriers to help reduce the flow of illegals.
Congress hasn't done shit about the free stuff and leftist politicians continue to pile on free stuff. Our current laws aren't even being enforced. Do you really think we're going to get California and other progressive strongholds to stop giving out free shit anytime soon?
