The 2017 document is plenty bad. It calls for ethnic cleansing. Hamas is a right wing/fascist organization propped up by Likud to wreck any possibility of a two state solution
An Interesting Question To Ponder
- Thread starter Ponca Dan
- Start date
I missed the part that called for ethnic cleansing, in what Number of the statement does it say that? According to some on this board your claim about the connection between Hamas and Likud is likely to get you "ended," even though it is undoubtedly true.
Somewhere in the first few bits it calls for Palestine being a land of Islamic arabs. They of course don't call for ethnic cleansing explicitly, but there is really only one way to go from one flavor of ethno-state to a different flavor of ethno-state.
I would say that the 2017 document better reflects the views of Hamas as constituted today than the one from 1988.
OTOH the assault by Hamas on Oct. 7th may be an even better reflection of their views in 2023. Once a terrorist always a terrorist may be the phrase of the day. (Which is a moot point for this discussion. What matters is what Hamas thinks it is.)
October 7th is fully aligned with the 2017 document. Like I said there is nothing exculpatory in it.
Good point. I read it and interpreted it to be telling the Jews they can live here but make no mistake this is our land.
Sorry but it’s the land of the Jews and as such the Jews will defend it, as they should.
I agree that we should condemn war, and should avoid it if at all possible. But if we must have war, restricting oneself from winning seems like suicide to me. And I'd question if those who are preaching this restraint have real skin in the game on our side. To put it succinctly, I want our boys (and girls) to come home, way more than I care about anybody on the opposition.
1400 dead men, women and children is quite the testament to the softening of Hamas's anti-Israeli perspective.
Israel has lowered the death count to “around 1200” but last I heard they’d released only 1100 names. Speculation is at least 100 of the dead are Hamas terrorists who were incinerated by fire from the IDF. But you are on point: obviously Hamas has not softened its attitude.
In reality, you could argue that they did soften their stance. Enough so that Israel and the IDF lowered its guard enough to allow such a massacre to defenseless Israelis to happen.
The people of Gaza are not totally defenseless. Maybe they should target their weapons at Israeli fighter-bombers instead of Israeli music festivals. Sound good?
Looking at the results of Israel’s bombing campaign I’d say they look pretty defenseless. But that’s just me. It occurs to me: Israel says it’s targeting Hamas fighters with its bombs and all the dead civilians that are not Hamas fighters are just unfortunate collateral damage, poor souls, they have never been the target. Could Hamas say their murderous rampage actually targeted Israeli fighters and the dead civilians are just unfortunate collateral damage? Is indiscriminately blowing bodies into pieces justified while beheadings, which are a particularly sick method of cutting bodies into pieces, albeit much closer and more personal than doing it from ten thousand feet in the air, not?
They are defenseless against the Jet fighters of Israel. But they weren't defenseless against the Hamas terrorists who have lived amongst them for years. But they were an accepted part of that society. Just look at our own resident Palestinian Congresswoman. To this day, she can't criticize Hamas. And if the Palestinian peoples can't separate themselves from Hamas (even when safely living in Minnesota under no threat of Hamas pressure), why would anyone expect Israel to be able to do so.
By almost any measure no one that defends Israel's actions expects them to do so. It's just virtually the rest of humanity that does. Israel has been given overt permission to use American weaponry to kill Palestinians at will, and they are doing that with everything they've got. I find it interesting that Palestinian people are criticized for acting defenseless against Hamas. Do you argue that Americans living in crime-ridden sections of their neighborhoods are not defenseless against the gangs that control their lives? Do they deserve what happens to them since they don't take up arms and drive the gangs out? I'm not on this board to defend Hamas and neither am I here to defend people who "can't separate themselves from Hamas." I'm here to condemn the unrelenting slaughter by Israel of innocent people who are caught in the crossfire between Hamas' terrorism and Israel's unrelenting oppression.
I'll speak to your gang/inner city connection. And my answer is yes, they are similarly responsible for their plight, just like the Palestinians are. If you don't think the the hood knows who the gangbangers are, then you are more naive than CUP. I can't count the number of videos I've seen where the members of the hood surrounds police who are just trying to do their job and arrest those who threaten the hood the most. And its not just accomplices. Its the moms and grandmoms. The ones who supposedly want the hood to get better. So no, I don't expect them to take up arms and drive them out. But they could help themselves and support those who are taking up arms to drive them out. But much like the Palestinians, the inner city 'innocents' have zero interest in doing so.
Btw, if you don't think that Hamas and Palestine are one in the same, then explain why the Palestinian government doesn't separate the casualty count between Hamas fighters and Palestinian citizenry? You'd think you'd take every opportunity to show segregation between the two groups, if such segregation actually existed.
I think you’re trying so hard to win an argument you’re willing to go to ridiculous lengths and spread yourself too thin. Next i know you’ll say the woman deserved to be raped becsause her skirt was so short. I don’t know about your videos but i do know one poll after another says people suffering in high crime gang infested neighborhoods are begging for more police protection. Guess who the police are in Gaza.
I don’t know why we don’t see the list of dead and wounded separated by Hamas membership vs non-membership any more than I know why Israel forbids independent journalists from going into Gaza and reporting what they see and experience, nor as far as I know how many IDF have been killed or wounded during their invasion. I did read (I’m sorry, I don’t remember where and I don’t know how trustworthy it is) that so far Hamas has barely been touched and the real fighting in Gaza hasn’t begun yet. God forbid that to be true!
