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07pilt, you, me, and the national debt

Medic007

MegaPoke is insane
Sep 25, 2006
33,271
52,154
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Since you introduced me to modern money theory, I've been reading all I can. I was blown away by the simple reality that no new money enters the non-government sector without the federal government spending in deficit.

I work with a guy who's a hardcore "we're doomed and our children and their children and their children are doomed because deficit and debt" guy. He was rather lathered up by an article he read about the debt passing some point of no return. I tried to have a dialogue about what the debt actually is and why deficit spending is important for economic growth.

It was mostly a waste of time until I decided to ask him how he would propose we pay for this debt. He had some fuzzy math made up bullshit solution so I dropped mine on him. I said if we're serious about paying off the debt, the government should tax every penny out of the US private sector, assests and all. He replied that nobody would have anything. I stated that he was right, but the federal government could pay off the $22 trillion debt and have about $76 trillion to give back to us in the future in the form of deficit spending.

I don't know if he actually got it, but I'm confident he won't bother me with his debt hysteria in the future. Thanks for having patience and showing me the light.
 
Since you introduced me to modern money theory, I've been reading all I can. I was blown away by the simple reality that no new money enters the non-government sector without the federal government spending in deficit.

I work with a guy who's a hardcore "we're doomed and our children and their children and their children are doomed because deficit and debt" guy. He was rather lathered up by an article he read about the debt passing the some point of no return. I tried to have a dialogue about what the debt actually is and why deficit spending is important for economic growth.

It was mostly a waste of time until I decided to ask him how he would propose we pay for this debt. He had some fuzzy math made up bullshit solution so I dropped mine on him. I said if we're serious about paying off the debt, the government should tax every penny out of the US private sector, assests and all. He replied that nobody would have anything. I stated that he was right, but the federal government could pay off the $22 trillion debt and have about $76 trillion to give back to us in the future in the form of deficit spending.

I don't know if he actually got it, but I'm confident he won't bother me with his debt hysteria in the future. Thanks for having patience and showing me the light.
Warms the heart. We are breaking through going mainstream.
 
Warms the heart. We are breaking through going mainstream.
The debt hysteria boogeyman is a hard one to toss though because it's been imprinted into our culture. I never had much interest in macroeconomics until I started reading based on the dialogue here. I can see right through most of the "critiques."
 
Ummm...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/financ...national-debt-effect-americans-223401667.html

“The national debt has become a runaway train that can be easy for the average American citizen to ignore. But the expanding national debt will impact everyone.

Rising national debt hurts the economy, in large part thanks to interest that must be paid on the debt.

According to the most recent CBO economic outlook, interest on the national debt is projected to hit $383 billion this year, an 18% increase from last year. By 2029, the United States will have to pay $928 billion in interest alone.

Outlining the risks
The CBO highlights all the consequences of rising debt. As more money is funneled towards the increasing national debt interest, federal spending reduces, meaning less money spent on infrastructure, education, research and development. But that isn’t all. CBO points to an increased likelihood of a fiscal crisis — a crisis that the United States wouldn’t be able to respond to as easily.

“Lawmakers would have less flexibility than otherwise to use tax and spending policies to respond to unexpected challenges,” says the CBO report. “Specifically, the risk would rise of investors’ being unwilling to finance the government’s borrowing unless they were compensated with very high interest rates. If that occurred, interest rates on federal debt would rise suddenly and sharply relative to rates of return on other assets.”

Families would also take a more direct financial hit in addition to increased interest rates on loans and mortgages. The CBO estimates that with current projections, the national debt will reduce a family’s income by $16,000 by 2048.

While the U.S. isn’t the only country with high debt levels, it is the only advanced economy that is expected to increase its debt to GDP ratio by 2023, according to the IMF. Currently, that ratio sits at 78%, but the CBO projects that it will hit 93% by 2029 — its highest level since just after World War II.
fredgraph.png


fredgraph.png
 
Sooooo...my point is proven got it thanks lol
If your point is that deficit spending by the federal government shows up in the non-government sector as a surplus (new money) and that the total debt is representative of the new money put into the non-government sector over the years, yes, you are correct.
 
Since you introduced me to modern money theory, I've been reading all I can. I was blown away by the simple reality that no new money enters the non-government sector without the federal government spending in deficit.

I work with a guy who's a hardcore "we're doomed and our children and their children and their children are doomed because deficit and debt" guy. He was rather lathered up by an article he read about the debt passing some point of no return. I tried to have a dialogue about what the debt actually is and why deficit spending is important for economic growth.

It was mostly a waste of time until I decided to ask him how he would propose we pay for this debt. He had some fuzzy math made up bullshit solution so I dropped mine on him. I said if we're serious about paying off the debt, the government should tax every penny out of the US private sector, assests and all. He replied that nobody would have anything. I stated that he was right, but the federal government could pay off the $22 trillion debt and have about $76 trillion to give back to us in the future in the form of deficit spending.

I don't know if he actually got it, but I'm confident he won't bother me with his debt hysteria in the future. Thanks for having patience and showing me the light.
Here’s some further reading for you, Medic:

https://www.bullionvault.com/gold-news/mmt-021120191
 
Here’s some further reading for you, Medic:

https://www.bullionvault.com/gold-news/mmt-021120191
That article illustrates my point that the deficit and debt boogeyman is well ingrained in our culture. Dan, I don't have time to tackle all of the nonsense in that article right now, but I'll leave you with a few questions and points.

Who creates the US dollar and how? If the government doesn't put new dollars into the non-government sector, who does?

If the government removes dollars from the non-government sector by taxation and simply puts it into the bank indefinitely as a surplus, how do the dollars that have been removed ever come back into the non-government sector? If dollars are a finite resource, economic growth will be limited to money only changing hands.

When the government creates new money, what can it do with it? It can spend it in some form, which is money that will go into the non-government sector by the purchase of goods and services, and some is literally given to the non-government sector via entitlements and grants which will be used to purchase goods and services. The government doesn't make goods. Or it can save it, and none of it will go to the non-government sector because it won't be used to purchase goods and services. One of those makes a bunch of sense. Similarly, if the government spends only what it takes out via taxes, the same thing would happen.

Of course we could have new money coming into the private sector if we had trade surpluses. I've learned that trade surpluses only work for so long because we remove US dollars from our trading partners at a rate that is higher than our US dollars go back. At some point our trading partners will have fewer dollars to buy our goods and services which will decrease their demand and this slow our growth.

I've not read a single thing by an MMT economist that says the government can spend without consequence. That's something clearly assumed by the author of that piece. If the government dumped $10 trillion into the non-government sector this year, of course that could drive inflation.

Yes, Congress not only taxes, but they also spend. The Fed and Treasury don't do either. Whoever wrote that is terribly misinformed on money policy though. The Fed has quite a few ways of influencing the economy. Putting money in via spending and taking money out via taxation is only one of many tools available to the federal government. You should check out what all the Fed does. It's some fascinating stuff.

Last thing I have time for is the Venezuela part. I laughed out loud at that. Clearly the author doesn't know how Venezuela got into trouble economically. If he/she did, it's very easy to see why actually borrowing from another country in their currency is a terrible plan.

In closing, that article creates a caricature of MMT but does zero to refute it which is just like many of the other critiques I've read.
 
Ponca Dan this one deserves the full treatment.

Won't work, will cause chaos anyway...

MODERN MONETARY THEORY is drawing a crowd, writes Brian Maher in The Daily Reckoning.

Its drummers claim MMT is a powerful tool to invigorate the American economy, sitting needlessly idle.

They further claim it can fund ambitious social programs – all without raids upon the taxpayer.

And, if interest rates are shackled down, without blasting the deficit.

The printing press will supply the money.

If inflation begins to menace, that is evidence the economy throbs at full capacity.

The tax man will then round up the excess cash...and jam inflation back in its cage.

The Treasury – not the Federal Reserve – will essentially boss the economy.

We simplify the business some – and not all MMT-ers speak as one.

We nonetheless believe we have drawn a serviceable sketch.

But can MMT meet its advertising?

We first note that Modern Monetary Theory goes under a false label.

It is not particularly modern.

MMT has a grandfather in what is called the "Chartalism" school of the early 1900s.

Chartalism was an assault against the gold standard.

But let it pass for now.

We now turn to MMT's central claims that:

  1. It is a spring of broadly shared prosperity, and...
  2. It can deal with any inflationary menace it sets loose.
Not at all what MMTs claims are. MMT is not normative it is a description of how sovereign monetary regimes like the US's work.
The central claim is that budgetary constraints are real resources and not monetary.



First point 1...

Our premise is short. And it is sweet..."like the old woman's dance."

Money measures wealth – it does not create it.

You know what creates wealth? Full employment and full utilization of real resources, which only a system based on an understanding of MMT can stably achieve.

Money no more creates wealth than yardsticks create yards.

Consider the thought experiment of 18th-century philosopher David Hume...

Imagine a benevolent fairy slips money into all the nation's pockets overnight...and doubles the money supply.

Is this nation doubly rich?

If only it were.

The money supply has been doubled. But no additional goods have entered existence.

The new money will simply chase existing goods.

We can therefore expect prices to approximately double.

The late economist Murray Rothbard:

"What makes us rich is an abundance of goods, and what limits that abundance is a scarcity of resources: namely land, labor and capital. Multiplying coin will not whisk these resources into being. We may feel twice as rich for the moment, but clearly all we are doing is diluting the money supply. As the public rushes out to spend its newfound wealth, prices will, very roughly, double – or at least rise until the demand is satisfied, and money no longer bids against itself for the existing goods."

MMT may fill the pockets of the unemployed. It may bring health insurance to the uninsured.
But it cannot increase the stock of hamburgers, computers, doctors or hospital beds.

It will only raise their prices.

If prosperity sprang from the printing press, Venezuela would be rich beyond all avarice.

Money is everywhere, like an infinitely aggressive virus.

Yet life's bare essentials are out of reach for many...and the storefronts gape empty.

If MMT was "just give everyone double the money and they will be double rich" this would be an outstanding retort. Since that's not the case it come off as just a lazy or intentional misunderstanding.

And does a blitz of money equal full employment?

The IMF informs us Venezuela's December unemployment rate was 33%.

The same IMF projects a 40% rate by year's end.

Meantime, it projects the nation's inflation rate will scale 10,000,000% this year.

Weimar Germany is a Switzerland next to it.

In summary...money is not wealth.

Venezuelan debt is in foreign currency, they target a fixed exchange rate. They are not MMT.

Explains economist Joseph Salerno:

"Not only is [MMT] a recipe for massive inflation but it will also cause chronic depression...The newly printed money will not cause an initial economywide boom because it will not be injected through credit markets driving down interest rates and stimulating investment.

This guy is really mistaken, like embarrassingly so for a so called economist. The newly printed money almost immediately hits the banking sector in the form of deposits creating banking reserves in excess reserve requirements, this will actually drive interest rates to zero unless the central bank intervenes, which they do in order to keep interest at their target.

"Rather it will go directly into the Treasury, allowing the government to immediately increase its spending on welfare programs, guaranteed-job programs, the 'Green New Deal' and wasted 'investment in infrastructure'. It will thus siphon off labor and other resources from productive investment...reducing genuine savings and capital accumulation."

See above. MMT does not prescribe any of those programs. They are not intrinsic to MMT. This argument is just a libertarian argument against government masquerading as a MMT critique.


All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow's consumption pulled forward. And it leaves the future empty.

How is that possible? How we consume today items produced in the future? It is nonsensical.

MMT lives for today. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

Mark Jeftovic of the Guerrilla Capitalism blog:

"Think of an MMT crisis as an economic black hole sucking all value from further and further future generations into a gravitational vortex of the present moment, where all value collapses in on itself and disappears forever."

Same nonsense more flowery language.

But let us proceed to MMT's second claim...

Can MMT put down the inflation it spawns?

We remind you that under MMT, taxes would soak up the excess money supply. This is its chief anti-inflation mechanism.

Chief but not only mechanism. There is also:
Central bank policy rates
Government price setting via consumption
Government price setting via fees.
Inflation automatically reduces government expenditure via decreasing the real value of nominal commitments.


But who runs tax policy?

The Congress of the United States.

Imagine MMT assumes force of law. Imagine further that it yields a vast inflation with no corresponding growth.

Is it your belief that Congress would raise taxes on the suffering classes in such a season of need?

Imagine inflation due to excessive demand being a season of need.

The economy would be already at a stall. A tax increase would only sink it into recession – or worse.

This guy doesn't understand what inflation or a recession is. Too much money is chasing too few goods? Sound like an economy operating at full capacity not a recession.

Is not the entire point of MMT to stimulate the economy?

No the point of MMT is to describe reality

But assume the tax hikes go through.

The economy goes upon the skids. But the government must keep the printing press whirring to service the expanding deficit.

This guy never takes a shower because if the water gets too hot he would turn down temperature and freeze to death.

That is, the presses run reveille to taps, seven days of the week.

A dreadful stagflation is the result.

The aforesaid Salerno:

"The recurring increases in taxes will not arrest the inflation, because the government will continue to run fiscal deficits by financing its ever increasing spending with new money. This would be the worst of both worlds: massive inflation proceeding hand in hand with chronic depression."

Depression is the opposite of inflation.
This guy's thermostat doesn't say 70 degrees it say extremely hot hand and hand with extremely cold


Even Paul Krugman – arch-salesman of the Keynesian product line – shakes his head at MMT.

And as one wag describes it, MMT would have us all "sandwiched between hyperinflation and hypertaxation!"

We conclude that MMT is not modern whatsoever...but nearly as ancient as money itself:

MMT is a 21st-century alchemy.

"I can tell you my secret," said the immemorial fraud John Law – "It is to make gold out of paper."

But rather than gold out of paper, his "secret" made paupers out of princes.

Law's Mississippi Bubble wrecked France for an entire generation.

Pry it open, drill down to the bottom...and this is what you will find:

MMT is the eternal quest for the free lunch...water into wine...something for nothing.

MMT is the eternal quest to tell every one they can eat all of the lunch you made instead of throwing 5-20% of it in the trash.

That world has no existence.

But does that mean MMT will never be?

MMT has been reality ever since Nixon floated the dollar, and was before during WWII mobilization
 
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Ponca Dan this one deserves the full treatment.

Won't work, will cause chaos anyway...

MODERN MONETARY THEORY is drawing a crowd, writes Brian Maher in The Daily Reckoning.

Its drummers claim MMT is a powerful tool to invigorate the American economy, sitting needlessly idle.

They further claim it can fund ambitious social programs – all without raids upon the taxpayer.

And, if interest rates are shackled down, without blasting the deficit.

The printing press will supply the money.

If inflation begins to menace, that is evidence the economy throbs at full capacity.

The tax man will then round up the excess cash...and jam inflation back in its cage.

The Treasury – not the Federal Reserve – will essentially boss the economy.

We simplify the business some – and not all MMT-ers speak as one.

We nonetheless believe we have drawn a serviceable sketch.

But can MMT meet its advertising?

We first note that Modern Monetary Theory goes under a false label.

It is not particularly modern.

MMT has a grandfather in what is called the "Chartalism" school of the early 1900s.

Chartalism was an assault against the gold standard.

But let it pass for now.

We now turn to MMT's central claims that:

  1. It is a spring of broadly shared prosperity, and...
  2. It can deal with any inflationary menace it sets loose.
Not at all what MMTs claims are. MMT is not normative it is a description of how sovereign monetary regimes like the US's work.
The central claim is that budgetary constraints are real resources and not monetary.



First point 1...

Our premise is short. And it is sweet..."like the old woman's dance."

Money measures wealth – it does not create it.

You know what creates wealth? Full employment and full utilization of real resources, which only a system based on an understanding of MMT can stably achieve.

Money no more creates wealth than yardsticks create yards.

Consider the thought experiment of 18th-century philosopher David Hume...

Imagine a benevolent fairy slips money into all the nation's pockets overnight...and doubles the money supply.

Is this nation doubly rich?

If only it were.

The money supply has been doubled. But no additional goods have entered existence.

The new money will simply chase existing goods.

We can therefore expect prices to approximately double.

The late economist Murray Rothbard:

"What makes us rich is an abundance of goods, and what limits that abundance is a scarcity of resources: namely land, labor and capital. Multiplying coin will not whisk these resources into being. We may feel twice as rich for the moment, but clearly all we are doing is diluting the money supply. As the public rushes out to spend its newfound wealth, prices will, very roughly, double – or at least rise until the demand is satisfied, and money no longer bids against itself for the existing goods."

MMT may fill the pockets of the unemployed. It may bring health insurance to the uninsured.
But it cannot increase the stock of hamburgers, computers, doctors or hospital beds.

It will only raise their prices.

If prosperity sprang from the printing press, Venezuela would be rich beyond all avarice.

Money is everywhere, like an infinitely aggressive virus.

Yet life's bare essentials are out of reach for many...and the storefronts gape empty.

If MMT was "just give everyone double the money and they will be double rich" this would be an outstanding retort. Since that's not the case it come off as just a lazy or intentional misunderstanding.

And does a blitz of money equal full employment?

The IMF informs us Venezuela's December unemployment rate was 33%.

The same IMF projects a 40% rate by year's end.

Meantime, it projects the nation's inflation rate will scale 10,000,000% this year.

Weimar Germany is a Switzerland next to it.

In summary...money is not wealth.

Venezuelan debt is in foreign currency, they target a fixed exchange rate. They are not MMT.

Explains economist Joseph Salerno:

"Not only is [MMT] a recipe for massive inflation but it will also cause chronic depression...The newly printed money will not cause an initial economywide boom because it will not be injected through credit markets driving down interest rates and stimulating investment.

This guy is really mistaken, like embarrassingly so for a so called economist. The newly printed money almost immediately hits the banking sector in the form of deposits creating banking reserves in excess reserve requirements, this will actually drive interest rates to zero unless the central bank intervenes, which they do in order to keep interest at their target.

"Rather it will go directly into the Treasury, allowing the government to immediately increase its spending on welfare programs, guaranteed-job programs, the 'Green New Deal' and wasted 'investment in infrastructure'. It will thus siphon off labor and other resources from productive investment...reducing genuine savings and capital accumulation."

See above. MMT does not prescribe any of those programs. They are not intrinsic to MMT. This argument is just a libertarian argument against government masquerading as a MMT critique.


All debt-based consumption steals from the future to gratify the present. It is tomorrow's consumption pulled forward. And it leaves the future empty.

How is that possible? How we consume today items produced in the future? It is nonsensical.

MMT lives for today. It signs a perpetual check against an overdrawn future.

Mark Jeftovic of the Guerrilla Capitalism blog:

"Think of an MMT crisis as an economic black hole sucking all value from further and further future generations into a gravitational vortex of the present moment, where all value collapses in on itself and disappears forever."

Same nonsense more flowery language.

But let us proceed to MMT's second claim...

Can MMT put down the inflation it spawns?

We remind you that under MMT, taxes would soak up the excess money supply. This is its chief anti-inflation mechanism.

Chief but not only mechanism. There is also:
Central bank policy rates
Government price setting via consumption
Government price setting via fees.
Inflation automatically reduces government expenditure via decreasing the real value of nominal commitments.


But who runs tax policy?

The Congress of the United States.

Imagine MMT assumes force of law. Imagine further that it yields a vast inflation with no corresponding growth.

Is it your belief that Congress would raise taxes on the suffering classes in such a season of need?

Imagine inflation due to excessive demand being a season of need.

The economy would be already at a stall. A tax increase would only sink it into recession – or worse.

This guy doesn't understand what inflation or a recession is. Too much money is chasing too few goods? Sound like an economy operating at full capacity not a recession.

Is not the entire point of MMT to stimulate the economy?

No the point of MMT is to describe reality

But assume the tax hikes go through.

The economy goes upon the skids. But the government must keep the printing press whirring to service the expanding deficit.

This guy never takes a shower because if the water gets too hot he would turn down temperature and freeze to death.

That is, the presses run reveille to taps, seven days of the week.

A dreadful stagflation is the result.

The aforesaid Salerno:

"The recurring increases in taxes will not arrest the inflation, because the government will continue to run fiscal deficits by financing its ever increasing spending with new money. This would be the worst of both worlds: massive inflation proceeding hand in hand with chronic depression."

Depression is the opposite of inflation.
This guy's thermostat doesn't say 70 degrees it say extremely hot hand and hand with extremely cold


Even Paul Krugman – arch-salesman of the Keynesian product line – shakes his head at MMT.

And as one wag describes it, MMT would have us all "sandwiched between hyperinflation and hypertaxation!"

We conclude that MMT is not modern whatsoever...but nearly as ancient as money itself:

MMT is a 21st-century alchemy.

"I can tell you my secret," said the immemorial fraud John Law – "It is to make gold out of paper."

But rather than gold out of paper, his "secret" made paupers out of princes.

Law's Mississippi Bubble wrecked France for an entire generation.

Pry it open, drill down to the bottom...and this is what you will find:

MMT is the eternal quest for the free lunch...water into wine...something for nothing.

MMT is the eternal quest to tell every one they can eat all of the lunch you made instead of throwing 5-20% of it in the trash.

That world has no existence.

But does that mean MMT will never be?

MMT has been reality ever since Nixon floated the dollar, and was before during WWII mobilization
Very well put.
 
“The government” creates new money?

Go ahead and write that again......to prove you actually meant what you wrote.


(Observation: I’m not a neuroscientist, but your race-card-playing and manipulated-buzzword-usage appears to have atrophied a certain part of your brain)
Maybe you can post a screenshot of the definition of money
 
“The government” creates new money?

Go ahead and write that again......to prove you actually meant what you wrote.


(Observation: I’m not a neuroscientist, but your race-card-playing and manipulated-buzzword-usage appears to have atrophied a certain part of your brain)
Yes, I meant it. The federal government issues US dollars and thus creates new money that had not previously existed.

Who else do you think can legally create new US dollars? How about you give me a list of who you think can create new dollars. I'll take that list online.

It appears to be you that has had brain atrophy from indulging in your idiotic Jew conspiracies.
 
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I understand that pilt and Medic have bought into the MMT hype, and there is nothing that can be said to alter their opinion. More’s the pity. I’m not surprised at pilt, but Medic sets me back a little.

I was going to post a link to a VERY long article the explains MMT and critiques it. But it is so long this board wouldn’t take it.

So, for anyone with an open mind I direct you to an article from about 5 years ago on:

the lighthouse.com/ debunking modern monetary theory

In the intervening 5 years there have been numerous economic papers that explain the logical fallacies and internal inconsistencies of MMT. Suffice it to say it is a very logical-sounding theory until it is thoroughly examined. Basically it is a con game brought to us by those people who seek to have the government gain greater control over our lives. I hope not very many of you are fooled.
 
The Federal Reserve / Federal Reserve Board (created in 1913, not very long ago) are “part of United States government?”

Would you look at yourself in the mirror and repeat that out loud?


You really should consider at least temporarily detoxing from your race-card-playing. It seems to have lowered your brainpower to about 80% - 85% of its full capacity (and you’re not low IQ).



6202-D8-E2-C34-E-4737-B445-5821-B57309-D5.jpg



2-C2-C07-B6-908-D-46-FB-8-CCB-D16-DD6-E48092.jpg
The Board of Governors of Federal Reserve is part of the government.
 
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I understand that pilt and Medic have bought into the MMT hype, and there is nothing that can be said to alter their opinion. More’s the pity. I’m not surprised at pilt, but Medic sets me back a little.

I was going to post a link to a VERY long article the explains MMT and critiques it. But it is so long this board wouldn’t take it.

So, for anyone with an open mind I direct you to an article from about 5 years ago on:

the lighthouse.com/ debunking modern monetary theory

In the intervening 5 years there have been numerous economic papers that explain the logical fallacies and internal inconsistencies of MMT. Suffice it to say it is a very logical-sounding theory until it is thoroughly examined. Basically it is a con game brought to us by those people who seek to have the government gain greater control over our lives. I hope not very many of you are fooled.
Dan, all due respect, but I (and medic) have already spent time answering your previous article, answers you seem to have ignored. Why are you know directing us to more articles. Please engage in the marketplace of ideas here.
 
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The Federal Reserve / Federal Reserve Board (created in 1913, not very long ago) are “part of United States government?”

Would you look at yourself in the mirror and repeat that out loud?


You really should consider at least temporarily detoxing from your race-card-playing. It seems to have lowered your brainpower to about 80% - 85% of its full capacity (and you’re not low IQ).



6202-D8-E2-C34-E-4737-B445-5821-B57309-D5.jpg



2-C2-C07-B6-908-D-46-FB-8-CCB-D16-DD6-E48092.jpg
Oh, poor NZ Poke. I'm sorry there's no meme to help you on this. Do you really think that the federal government issues debt by printing out dollar bills? You're either toon level stupid or you're just being pouty that I called you out for being a Jew hater.
 
Basically it is a con game brought to us by those people who seek to have the government gain greater control over our lives. I hope not very many of you are fooled.
Dan, this is where you and others lose all credibility. MMT does nothing but describe the current way macroeconomics works. It's not associated with any political ideology. It's not associated with any political party. It's just a factual way to describe our monetary system. It's people who don't understand it that try to put a political spin on it.

There aren't any tricks or cons to MMT unless you invent them in your own mind or allow others to put them there with silly articles like the one you posted.

I will venture further to point out that MMT would be a terrible way to achieve socialism since the federal government spends money into the non-government sector. If you want socialism, the government needs to be flush with cash in order to take over production by starving the current non-government producers out or buying them directly.
 
Dan, this is where you and others lose all credibility. MMT does nothing but describe the current way macroeconomics works. It's not associated with any political ideology. It's not associated with any political party. It's just a factual way to describe our monetary system. It's people who don't understand it that try to put a political spin on it.

There aren't any tricks or cons to MMT unless you invent them in your own mind or allow others to put them there with silly articles like the one you posted.

I will venture further to point out that MMT would be a terrible way to achieve socialism since the federal government spends money into the non-government sector. If you want socialism, the government needs to be flush with cash in order to take over production by starving the current non-government producers out or buying them directly.
The flip side to every spending proposal based on MMT is tax cut based on MMT.
 
The flip side to every spending proposal based on MMT is tax cut based on MMT.
Very true. I know I'm probably being overly simplistic by describing it as the money available for new investment in something is what the government spends into the non-government sector minus what the government takes out in taxes. There's the trade part of it as well. I started simple as far as the big picture so that's what I'm trying to communicate here.
 
The flip side to every spending proposal based on MMT is tax cut based on MMT.
And I probably didn't describe my socialism comment correctly, but I don't see MMT as something that helps achieve socialism if that was in fact a goal of MMT.
 
Dan, all due respect, but I (and medic) have already spent time answering your previous article, answers you seem to have ignored. Why are you know directing us to more articles. Please engage in the marketplace of ideas here.
Pilt, I specifically targeted the second link to people with open minds. I see no need for you to read it. There is nothing in it that will change your mind. The second link - actually both links - are directed at people interested in hearing the opposite, negative side of MMT.
 
Pilt, I specifically targeted the second link to people with open minds. I see no need for you to read it. There is nothing in it that will change your mind. The second link - actually both links - are directed at people interested in hearing the opposite, negative side of MMT.
Better hope they have a long attention span
 
Pilt, I specifically targeted the second link to people with open minds. I see no need for you to read it. There is nothing in it that will change your mind. The second link - actually both links - are directed at people interested in hearing the opposite, negative side of MMT.
I didn't read the second link because it probably reads just like the first one. If the authors can't get the simple fact that MMT isn't a political thing or part of a political ideology in disguise, I'm fairly certain they won't get any of the rest of it correct.

Let me ask you this if you are sincerely trying to understand MMT. Let's say we are starting from scratch. Our currency will be the Dan. The government has $1 trillion Dans, the official currency of Danistan. The non-government sector has $0 Dans. In order for the government to put their $1 trillion Dans into the non-government government sector, they either have to spend it on goods and services offered by the private sector or they have to give it to the private sector. For the sake of simplicity, our trade with the only other country is Dan neutral. We buy as much from them as they buy from us. They use a currency that is exchanged 1:1 for Dans.

The government gives $250 billion in entitlement payments for welfare, healthcare, and housing to the population and they spend the other $750 billion on goods and services over the course of a year.

Now tax time comes and the tax rate is 25%. For simplicity, the tax is calculated based on the number of Dans the government spent or gave to the non-government sector. So the government is going to take $250 billion Dans from the non-government sector. If the government chooses to put those Dans in a vault as surplus, how many Dans are left in the non-government sector? $750 billion.

Now let's say that the government doesn't create any more Dans, they spend zero Dans, and they keep the $250 billion Dans in a vault. The government does not levy any additional taxes on the non-government sector for the next 50 years.

Can the number of Dans increase if the government doesn't put any more Dans into the non-government sector by spending it on goods and services or giving it to people?
 
The main take away from Dan's second link:

"However, I have not seen anyone been able to refute MMT on its own grounds."
 
Medic007 you should read Dan's second link. The guy makes a genuine attempt to understand what he is talking about.
 
Medic007 you should read Dan's second link. The guy makes a genuine attempt to understand what he is talking about.
OK, I'll read it when I get a moment to read something more lengthy this evening.
 
Dan, all due respect, but I (and medic) have already spent time answering your previous article, answers you seem to have ignored. Why are you know directing us to more articles. Please engage in the marketplace of ideas here.

BTW, you sound like a real-life, human boy (or girl) here.

Keep it up!
 
Pilt, I specifically targeted the second link to people with open minds. I see no need for you to read it. There is nothing in it that will change your mind. The second link - actually both links - are directed at people interested in hearing the opposite, negative side of MMT.
A couple of follow up questions to my previous question...

If Danistan decided it was going to spend $1 trillion Dans in the next year, where will it get those Dans? If it taxed all original Dans back into its account, all $1 trillion Dans, how many Dans are left in the non-government sector?

If it took in only 80% of the Dans, $800 billion, how much would would be left in the non-government sector? Since Danistan needs to spend $1 trillion Dans but it only has $800 billion Dans, where can it get the additional $200 billion Dans it needs?

I'm going to read the 2nd link you posted this evening. I glanced at it and I'm certain that I previously read it as part of my MMT learning excursion. If that's the case I will reread it. Sorry to originally dismiss it sight unseen.
 
@CBradSmith, at some point recently you indicated that MMT didn't sound far fetched. What are your thoughts at this point?

I was trying to convey that Potty- mouth @07pilt has shared enough, and I've thought enough, about the principles of the topic that it is worth looking into when/if it becomes necessary to do so. I haven't done any in-depth reading on the topic outside of when he first directed me on the topic a while back (probably 1 to 2 year...or more).
 
@CBradSmith, at some point recently you indicated that MMT didn't sound far fetched. What are your thoughts at this point?

It seems structurally plausible, but culturally invasive. Very authoritarian. But we may end up in a place in the future where adopting its tenets wholesale is our only recourse. In fact, I think that's highly likely.
 
It seems structurally plausible, but culturally invasive. Very authoritarian. But we may end up in a place in the future where adopting its tenets wholesale is our only recourse. In fact, I think that's highly likely.
That's the thing. It isn't something we might move toward. It's what's currently happening. It has nothing to do with politics or ideology. That was my hangup at first. If you keep the tendency to view it through the political leanings of the person talking about it you realize that it isn't a political endeavor.

My skepticism ended when I looked at actual FRED data in graph form. You don't get that kind of mirror image for that long with that consistency by chance. I was hung up on the immediate post WW2 era because the private sector had growth while the government had a surplus. After looking further into that, I realized that reflected the US standing as a net exporter of goods and services during that time. We helped rebuild at least two countries. The trade surplus kept the private sector dollars up despite the government surplus. The dollar was also not fully floated until 1971.
 
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